Survey results - a leap in the dark?

[Froggy]

Well, we're one step nearer our first boat - or are we??

 

Yesterday we had the survey done. We haven't had the formal report yet, but the surveyor was very happy to chat to us at various points in the day. The hull seems ok, with no overplating and only small areas of 2mm or less pitting on parts of the hull, with a sound bottom plate - although i think he just used an electronic depth gauge with no ultrasonic analysis that i was aware of.

 

Internally, though, there were a few concerns:

 

1. He couldn't get the Eberspacher working. The display showed a reading briefly and then faded. This might, as he pointed out, be just a dead battery (the boat has been lying unused in a marina for weeks, possibly months, although was sailed a short distance to the boatyard for the inspection).

2. He also commented that although the engine seemed sound, with just some light smoke, on both times he started it he heard two different noises which he suggested might be from an alternator or timing belt. Furthermore, the engine didn't stop when he turned off the ignition and he had to resort to the emergency button.

3. One of the rings on the gas hob was low despite the others being ok. He pointed out that this was a potential safety certificate failure.

4. There is a crack in the collar between the top plate of the Morso stove and the flue.

 

Of the above, the latter two are probably no great issue, but we are concerned with the first two. Obviously if the eberspacher issue is just a battery issue this would be quite a cheap fix, but we're concerned that this and unknown issues with the engine could result in costly repairs. His overall opinion of the boat is that, mechanically at least, it hadn't been very well serviced, with one of the alternators showing considerable signs of rust. We're also aware that the engine isn't the original and therefore when installed in the boat it might not have been new; things aren't helped here by the fact that the hours counter isn't working.

 

It would be interesting to read peoples' observations regarding these issues. We already bargained the seller down by 2k before survey and he doesn't seem prepared to offer any more. Therefore, it's a case of do we take a gamble or walk away, and at the moment this is on a knife edge, so any thoughts on the above issues would be useful in helping us to reach a decision.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Froggy

[mrsmelly]

Its impossible to comment correctly without seeing the boat but I never have nor never will ever have a survey as they often seem to state the obvious and miss the easily missable but everyone has their own view on this. More important in your case is exactly how much money is the boat? If its say 70 k plus I would expect EVERYTHING to be top notch and with no major faults. If the boat is say 20 K I would expect to have to pay lots of money out on lots of things and as the price rises there should be less wrong with it.

 

Tim

[Chewbacka]

I think you will find it fairly common - certainly with a Beta engine - that they don't stop when the ignition key is turned off. With a petrol engine the engine will only run with the ignition 'on' otherwise there is no spark, but with a diesel engine with a simple mechanical injection pump there is nothing to turn off.

Mine only stops if you press the stop button or pull on the 'emergency' stop cable.

 

If the battery is shot then they may have got the boat started with a slave battery/jump start. But even after cruising the battery may not have much power in it. Easy to check battery voltage with a suitable hand held meter.

[Alan de Enfield]

A flat battery will stop the engine being stopped ' by the key'

 

On a number of occasions (prior to getting a new battery that 'held charge') I had to jump start my 'digger' (same Kubota engine as many NBs), after even some hours running it failed to stop by switching off the key and had to be 'stalled', or re-connect jump leads from the Tractor, which allowed the 'key' to work.

 

I would have expected a surveyor to have known that - especially if he had concerns about the state of the battery because of the 'eber situation'.

 

I would also be very reluctant to take the work of a surveyor who did not use ultrasound across at least 100 points around the hull.

 

I think you may have used one of the 'bad' surveyors.

[Bee]

The Eber does indeed sound like a flat battery, must have an ok starting battery though.Engine not stopping, possibly something to do with a stop solenoid but I do wonder if the 'Emergency button' is in fact the proper way to stop it anyway. I've never heard of an 'Emergency button'. Odd noises, could well be a flat leisure battery putting a big load on belts and alternator, unless its a metallic clatter I wouldn't worry. Rings on gas cooker, take the top of the burner off and clear the rust out. Crack in the collar of the stove, that does need fixing with a new part and if you are not happy then get someone to do it. Is it a 'cruiser stern'? if so then the engine is quite exposed to damp etc. so is likely to look a bit shabby.In the scheme of things it really is not a very big gamble, minor stuff really.

[Cheshire cat]

A boat without heating is next to useless. The broker I bought from already knew that the Ebesprecher didn't work. Knock a grand off or ask them to replace or fix it. I ended up with a new Webasto.

 

The other stuff sounds a lot less expensive but I'd still use it as a lever. They have put a price on the boat knowing about the faults. You didn't know about them so now is your chance to adjust your offer.

[Chewbacka]

A flat battery will stop the engine being stopped ' by the key'

 

On a number of occasions (prior to getting a new battery that 'held charge') I had to jump start my 'digger' (same Kubota engine as many NBs), after even some hours running it failed to stop by switching off the key and had to be 'stalled', or re-connect jump leads from the Tractor, which allowed the 'key' to work.

 

I would have expected a surveyor to have known that - especially if he had concerns about the state of the battery because of the 'eber situation'.

 

I would also be very reluctant to take the work of a surveyor who did not use ultrasound across at least 100 points around the hull.

 

I think you may have used one of the 'bad' surveyors.

On my boat, turning off the key when the engine is running has never stopped the engine. It does however prevent the stop button from working and it also turns off the rev counter etc. Just as an aside, in the Kubota workshop manual it warns you that you should the engine run in reverse rotation - I assume by letting it roll backwards in a forward gear - you must stop the engine. Can't do that with a petrol engine.

[Cheshire cat]

Yes, thinking about it, turning of the key kills the electrics which prevents the engine stop button from having any effect. Press the button then turn the key once the engine has stopped. Of course, other engines may be different.

[OldGoat]

As others have said / implied - on the standard Beta panel, the button is not an emergency stop, but the normal way of turning off the engine. Later panels have the fuel valve wired 'energised on', so that if you turn the key to Off - the engine stops. So confusion reigns.....

 

There will be light smoke from a Kubota until the engine warms up, generally they are smoke free, but if your boat hasn't been used for some time, some smoke may be reasonable.

 

Again, belt squeal indicates a loose / tatty belt. As you say if the boat has been poorly maintained then that may account for the strange noises. From your words it seems to me that the surveyor (whoever he was) was not terribly knowledgeable about engines. Nonetheless it could not be a show stopper, but some mechanic who know the foibles of Kubota should advise.

If the batteries are flat (as inferred), then belts will squeal if the engine is run at tickover.

 

My opinion, of course

 

[Captain Pegg]

It's funny how different people see different things. From that list the top three things look like fixable semantics to me and I would concur a little more digging to find the cause may have been appropriate. The fourth one is potentially lethal.

 

Are you sure that this 'electronic' depth gauge wasn't using ultrasound to determine thickness?

 

JP

[Sea Dog]

Just as an aside, in the Kubota workshop manual it warns you that you should the engine run in reverse rotation - I assume by letting it roll backwards in a forward gear - you must stop the engine. Can't do that with a petrol engine.

Oh yes you can! My missus had a USSR-made Neval 125cc motorcycle which could fire up backwards. Obviously the timing was a bit out in that event making it sound rougher than usual, so the number of times she let the clutch in and rolled backwards was relatively few but it happened! Normally, it just got stopped and restarted to run in the right direction.

[ditchcrawler]

Oh yes you can! My missus had a USSR-made Neval 125cc motorcycle which could fire up backwards. Obviously the timing was a bit out in that event making it sound rougher than usual, so the number of times she let the clutch in and rolled backwards was relatively few but it happened! Normally, it just got stopped and restarted to run in the right direction.

Old 2 stroke invalid carriages the engine ran both ways

edit to add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_engine

Edited October 28, 2016 by ditchcrawler

[Flyboy]

I think the boat the op has had surveyed has a Barrus Shire engine, these should stop when you turn the key, just like a car. If the surveyor thinks the noise could come from the timing belt, he's not familiar with engines. The Shire doesn't have a timing belt.

[Froggy]

Many thanks for all the answers folks, much appreciated. As Friday is my 'listening to music loud on some headphones with a few beers and whiskies' evening i will respond in greater detail later in the weekend, but these replies have provided some useful pointers that will help us make an informed decision. Just a quick word about the engine though: somewhere wires have got crossed, i never actually mentioned the engine make but it's a Barrus Shire, as Flyboy correctly states as a result of responding to earlier threads i've posted. It's not the original engine though, so this might have some bearing on the issue.

 

It's funny how different people see different things. From that list the top three things look like fixable semantics to me and I would concur a little more digging to find the cause may have been appropriate. The fourth one is potentially lethal.

Are you sure that this 'electronic' depth gauge wasn't using ultrasound to determine thickness?

JP

 

I must admit, i haven't a clue what an ultrasound looks like but the thing the guy had just looked like some specialist version of a tyre depth guage, where he pressed it into the various pitted areas and read off a reading on an electronic display.

 

Anyway, more input from me later in the weekend, and i'll also post some more details about the boat.

 

EDIT at 30th. October: Having now had the survey report back this was indeed an ultrasound device.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Froggy

[ditchcrawler]

The last Morso stove I had, when that cracked the bloody thing fell to bits so more that £20 to fix.

[MtB]

It's funny how different people see different things. From that list the top three things look like fixable semantics to me and I would concur a little more digging to find the cause may have been appropriate. The fourth one is potentially lethal.

 

That's what I thought too.

 

The forth unfortunately, is the most difficult and expensive to deal with. A cracked flue collar on a Squirrel generally only happens on a tired and rusty one (Squirrel that is, not collar). Dismantling a Squirrel to fit a new collar will probably reveal other cracking or corrosion leading to the ultimate decision to replace the stove. Then you have to decide whether to buy another (expensive) squirrel or a cheapo alternative. The latter will mean a new flue too. I can't imagine this item 4 being fixed for less than £1k, and possibly closer to £2k if the yard is being employed to deal with it.

[MtB]

Its impossible to comment correctly without seeing the boat but I never have nor never will ever have a survey as they often seem to state the obvious and miss the easily missable but everyone has their own view on this. More important in your case is exactly how much money is the boat? If its say 70 k plus I would expect EVERYTHING to be top notch and with no major faults. If the boat is say 20 K I would expect to have to pay lots of money out on lots of things and as the price rises there should be less wrong with it.

 

Tim

 

 

This is spot on. If this is a £20k boat these faults are a typical results of a survey. The thing is, when you say you've negotiated £2k off the price already, was this because you'd already noted the stove fault, the busted Eber and the knackered batteries?

 

If not, then you're just going to have to 'take a view'. IF the boat remains a bargain despite having to spend a potential £3k+ to get the heating on again and batteries replaced, then go for it! Is it still a bargain if the engine turns out to need a £5k rebuild too?

 

If not and it is as they say 'fully priced', is it a boat you love so much that you're willing to pay £5k over the odds to get it? Bear in mind if the answer is 'no' you are back to the treadmill of endless weekends soaked up poring through adverts and arranging visits to boatyards looking at mis-described boats!

 

Rhetorical questions designed to help you think about it more clearly.

[Froggy]

 

That's what I thought too.

 

The forth unfortunately, is the most difficult and expensive to deal with. A cracked flue collar on a Squirrel generally only happens on a tired and rusty one (Squirrel that is, not collar). Dismantling a Squirrel to fit a new collar will probably reveal other cracking or corrosion leading to the ultimate decision to replace the stove. Then you have to decide whether to buy another (expensive) squirrel or a cheapo alternative. The latter will mean a new flue too. I can't imagine this item 4 being fixed for less than £1k, and possibly closer to £2k if the yard is being employed to deal with it.

 

Ok, you've got me worried there. I wonder whether i'm using the wrong terminology, as i'm unfamiliar with these stoves. The crack is between the top of the stove and the chimney, described by the surveyor as the collar if i remember correctly. It looked as if some cement had been put around it, perhaps an earlier repair, but at the time i looked at it i just assumed this was how the collar was meant to be sealed to the flue. I was given the impression that the collar was replaceable, but from what you are saying it isn't. If not, can this not simply be repaired with an appropriate cement/putty? The seller had, when we originally viewed the boat, given us the impression that the stove had only been fitted a couple of years ago, but, of course, like the engine, it wasn't necessarily new when installed. There weren't, however, any obvious signs of cracking elsewhere. I'm beginning to wish i'd taken a photograph of it. It's possible that the surveyor will supply one with the report.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Froggy

[Captain Pegg]

 

I must admit, i haven't a clue what an ultrasound looks like but the thing the guy had just looked like some specialist version of a tyre depth guage, where he pressed it into the various pitted areas and read off a reading on an electronic display.

Oh! So you didn't get any measurements of hull thickness?

[MtB]

 

The crack is between the top of the stove and the chimney, described by the surveyor as the collar if i remember correctly.

 

What exactly is it that is cracked? Is it a crack in a metal component? Or do you mean the sealing cement is cracked?

 

If the former, it can't be fixed by plastering gunk over it. Gunk doesn't stick to rusty steel. Or rather it might but it falls off again as soon as you use the stove.

 

Yes the surveyor is right a collar is usually replaceable in theory, but think about it. How exactly do you get it off? Yes, dismantle and remove the flue pipe, then undo the nuts/bolts inside the stove holding the collar in place. If 1) you can find them in the soot and 2), they are not rusted solid and you can still get a spanner on them, 3) they turn, and 4) no other rot, damage or cracks in the stove are found during this work. (Have a guess as to the likely answers to these questions.) Then bolt the new collar in place, re-fit the flue pipe, seal it into the roof collar and away you go. A day should do it, provided you've done it a few times before and all goes to plan. Which it never does with stoves

[Froggy]

Oh! So you didn't get any measurements of hull thickness?

 

The boat is a Gary Gorton build with 6mm hull, so this would infer 4mm remaining in the worst pitted areas the surveyor could find. The bottom plate was deemed to be sound. These pits were small and the surveyor suggested that spot welding would resolve the issue and that there would be no need for overplating.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Froggy

[ditchcrawler]

 

That's what I thought too.

 

The forth unfortunately, is the most difficult and expensive to deal with. A cracked flue collar on a Squirrel generally only happens on a tired and rusty one (Squirrel that is, not collar). Dismantling a Squirrel to fit a new collar will probably reveal other cracking or corrosion leading to the ultimate decision to replace the stove. Then you have to decide whether to buy another (expensive) squirrel or a cheapo alternative. The latter will mean a new flue too. I can't imagine this item 4 being fixed for less than £1k, and possibly closer to £2k if the yard is being employed to deal with it.

Basically what we found. Fortunately we were able to change it ourselves so saved labour.

[MtB]

 

The boat is a Gary Gorton build with 6mm hull, so this would infer 4mm remaining in the worst pitted areas the surveyor could find. The bottom plate was deemed to be sound. These pits were small and the surveyor suggested that spot welding would resolve the issue and that there would be no need for overplating.

 

 

Hmmm so this will be a pretty old boat then. Gary stopped building a couple of decades ago IIRC and a 6mm hull suggests an early build of his. Is it a 6mm baseplate too?

 

On a boat of this age then 2mm pitting is not unusual, good even. Making a few BIG assumptions, I'd say this boat would be worth £30k tops if in spot on condition. Sub-£20k would seem appropriate given the work required. Having said that, any boat 25 years old is going to have a string of problems like this when carefully examined. It could have been far worse!

[Alan de Enfield]

It sounds like it is getting very marginal for getting (comprehensive) insurance where many insurers will not insure a boat below 4mm.

 

It looks as if, adding all of the concerns together, it may be worth turning around and walking away and just accepting that the cost of the survey MAY have saved you £1000s.

 

Your money and your choice.

[MtB]

It sounds like it is getting very marginal for getting (comprehensive) insurance where many insurers will not insure a boat below 4mm.

 

Most insurers only apply this criterion on a boat 25 years old or more in my experience.

 

If less than 25 years, they don't ask about hull thickness.