Survey results - a leap in the dark?

[Froggy]

 

What exactly is it that is cracked? Is it a crack in a metal component? Or do you mean the sealing cement is cracked?

 

If the former, it can't be fixed by plastering gunk over it. Gunk doesn't stick to rusty steel. Or rather it might but it falls off again as soon as you use the stove.

 

Yes the surveyor is right a collar is usually replaceable in theory, but think about it. How exactly do you get it off? Yes, dismantle and remove the flue pipe, then undo the nuts/bolts inside the stove holding the collar in place. If 1) you can find them in the soot and 2), they are not rusted solid and you can still get a spanner on them, 3) they turn, and 4) no other rot, damage or cracks in the stove are found during this work. (Have a guess as to the likely answers to these questions.) Then bolt the new collar in place, re-fit the flue pipe, seal it into the roof collar and away you go. A day should do it, provided you've done it a few times before and all goes to plan. Which it never does with stoves

 

This depends on whether the collar is meant to be continuous or whether there is meant to be a vertical gap of several millimeters at one point in the circumference, which is what i observed. This seemed clean and uniform so is perhaps part of the design, no doubt you will be familiar enough to advise one way or another. I didn't notice much rust. I've had a quick look on the Morso website and can't see collars offered as spares.

 

The way i am thinking right now is that we need to go back and view the boat in greater detail. If the engine noises sound as if they may be minor and we can clean the gas jet, and the Eberspacher issue turns out to be just a dud battery, it might be just the stove that's the major issue, although the surveyor suggested that at the very least the engine and Eberspacher would need a service. We won't be able to take things forward until we've received the surveyor's report.

 

Right, if i don't sign off now i'm never going to get any music played!!

[Froggy]

 

 

Hmmm so this will be a pretty old boat then. Gary stopped building a couple of decades ago IIRC and a 6mm hull suggests an early build of his. Is it a 6mm baseplate too?

 

On a boat of this age then 2mm pitting is not unusual, good even. Making a few BIG assumptions, I'd say this boat would be worth £30k tops if in spot on condition. Sub-£20k would seem appropriate given the work required. Having said that, any boat 25 years old is going to have a string of problems like this when carefully examined. It could have been far worse!

 

No, the baseplate is 10mm. The boat is a 1997 build.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Froggy

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Most insurers only apply this criterion on a boat 25 years old or more in my experience.

 

If less than 25 years, they don't ask about hull thickness.

 

And in post #23 you suggested the age was ?

[Richard10002]

My boat is a 2001 Gary Gorton hull, identifiable by the heart shaped "hole" at the top of the rudder, and the bottom of the gas locker, both sides.

 

10mm base, 6mm sides, and 4mm top.

 

A very good builder according to my surveyor, Steve Hands.

 

My stove is a Boatman and has a removeable collar between stove and flue. I replaced this shortly after purchase as it was cracked. If it had been an integral part of the stove, perhaps it would have been time for a new stove. Many assumptions are being made here which can be the difference between a sub £100 repair, and a £2k replacement - we have no idea of the nature of the problem, so the OP needs to see what the actual survey says/shows, and perhaps take another look at the boat. ETA the collar looks integral, so could be an awkward/expensive repair/replacement.

 

On the Eber - the owner/broker ought to be pragmatic enough to supply a non flat battery to show it working???

 

On the engine noises - we have no idea whether these are clanks, clunks, grinds, squeals, or whatever..... If he thought they were belts, perhaps they were squeals... my alternator belt squeals if it's a bit slack.... replacing or tightening sorts it out. Again, the surveyor, and people here, are commenting on something they dont know enough about - a few quids worth of repair may be being translated into a knackered engine, and may result in a decision not to buy a great boat.

 

My advice would be to see what the full survey says/shows, then report back, and go and see the boat again to inspect and express concerns to the seller/broker.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Richard10002

[MtB]

 

And in post #23 you suggested the age was ?

 

 

About 25 years, so straddles the cut-off point. Which I why I pointed it out.

 

And as it turns out to be 19, the point is irrelevant for now.

 

 

(And I was basing my 25 guess on the OP's initial assertion the hull was 6mm, not 6/10 as it turns out to be.)

Edited October 28, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[Froggy]

My boat is a 2001 Gary Gorton hull, identifiable by the heart shaped "hole" at the top of the rudder, and the bottom of the gas locker, both sides.

 

10mm base, 6mm sides, and 4mm top.

 

A very good builder according to my surveyor, Steve Hands.

 

My stove is a Boatman and has a removeable collar between stove and flue. I replaced this shortly after purchase as it was cracked. If it had been an integral part of the stove, perhaps it would have been time for a new stove. Many assumptions are being made here which can be the difference between a sub £100 repair, and a £2k replacement - we have no idea of the nature of the problem, so the OP needs to see what the actual survey says/shows, and perhaps take another look at the boat.

 

On the Eber - the owner ought to be pragmatic enough to supply a non flat battery to show it working???

 

On the engine noises - we have no idea whether these are clanks, clunks, grinds, squeals, or whatever..... If he thought they were belts, perhaps they were squeals... my alternator belt squeals if it's a bit slack.... replacing or tightening sorts it out. Again, the surveyor, and people here, are commenting on something they dont know enough about - a few quids worth of repair may be being translated into a knackered engine, and may result in a decision not to buy a great boat.

 

My advice would be to see what the full survey says/shows, then report back, and go and see the boat again to inspect and express concerns to the seller.

 

Thanks for all this advice, this is the line we're currently thinking of taking.

 

For everybody reading this thread, i've posted the link to the ad in the preceding post. If you blow up the picture of the stove as far as possible you can just see where the crack in the collar is, a little left of centre, although it's not very clear due to the definition of the photograph.

 

 

About 25 years, so straddles the cut-off point. Which I why I pointed it out.

 

And as it turns out to be 19, the point is irrelevant for now.

 

 

(And I was basing my 25 guess on the OP's initial assertion the hull was 6mm, not 6/10 as it turns out to be.)

 

Sorry Mike, i'm still a novice and currently unfamiliar with the terminology.

[MtB]

That collar looks well plastered up with gunk. I think it has been carefully bodged to conceal the extent of the corrosion. I think this because it looks to me in the photo as though the 'repair' has been painted black and the stove not used since. Could be wrong though.

 

One does not expect to see a fillet of gunk/filler/fire cement around the base of the collar though. Not normal. Find some photos of Squirrels on other boats and compare!

(And no need to apologise about being unfamiliar with terminology!)

I have to say, £35k seems a LOT of money for that boat. The fit out looks more 80s to me than late 90s and I think if you had to sell it in a year, you'd struggle to get more than £25k for it.

[Froggy]

That collar looks well plastered up with gunk. I think it has been carefully bodged to conceal the extent of the corrosion. I think this because it looks to me in the photo as though the 'repair' has been painted black and the stove not used since. Could be wrong though.

 

One does not expect to see a fillet of gunk/filler/fire cement around the base of the collar though. Not normal. Find some photos of Squirrels on other boats and compare!

(And no need to apologise about being unfamiliar with terminology

....or is that rust? The photo doesnt really make it clear and i must admit i can't remember.

 

Cheers Mike, thanks for these observations. And here was us thinking that the Morso would be the least of our problems! The chimney cowl is also shot and needs replacing, so flue would have had to be removed anyway (water leaking onto a hot stove probably explains the crack) but if the collar isn't easily replaceable maybe a new stove is needed and maybe, if we did decide to buy the boat, it would have to be something cheaper than a Morso. It all seems a bit strange in a stove that was only fitted two years ago unless either the installation was bodged or the stove wasn't new. We nearly viewed a boat with a Bubble stove a few weeks ago, and i can't help thinking that this is the most eloquent solution: instant heat, no cleaning out of dirty griddles, and heating to the radiators that doesn't require a high maintenance engine/pump.

 

Right, i'm off to listen to some music and will report back again tomorrow!

Edited October 28, 2016 by Froggy

[Froggy]

I have to say, £35k seems a LOT of money for that boat. The fit out looks more 80s to me than late 90s and I think if you had to sell it in a year, you'd struggle to get more than £25k for it.

 

The bid we've had accepted is £33k. (Of course, we've now shelled out just over 1k for survey and craneage). I have to say that there's a lot we like about the fit out (although it is more tired than the pictures suggest, particularly the galley worktops). We like the fact that there is a rear bedroom, which we will use as a separate space when we're both on the boat and wanting to do our own thing (also doubling as a guest bedroom); the bath is a plus point for me too, and the bathroom is sensibly located between aft room and central bedroom, with doors either side for privacy to both bedrooms, plus another door separating the bedroom from the galley/saloon area. This is a lot better than some of the boats we've viewed on Apollo Duck where any guest would have to walk through the main bedroom to get to the loo!! The galley has been modified since the build: there is a slot in the ceiling panel above the fridge indicating that there was a storage unit of some sort descending from the ceiling to the counter, and the seller did suggest the galley used to be quite different (i think there are photos of the original layout in the documents but we never got around to looking at them).

Edited October 29, 2016 by Froggy

[peterboat]

I liked it from the pictures yes I think you have to try and knock off the cost of the repairs and maybe some new batteries, has it been craned back in yet? if not and you are buying get the blacking done as well

[MtB]

 

 

 

The bid we've had accepted is £33k. (Of course, we've now shelled out just over 1k for survey and craneage). I have to say that there's a lot we like about the fit out (although it is more tired than the pictures suggest, particularly the galley worktops). We like the fact that there is a rear bedroom, which we will use as a separate space when both on the boat and wanting to do our own thing (also doubling as a guest bedroom); the bath is a plus point for me too, and the bathroom is sensibly located between aft room and central bedroom, with doors either side plus another door separating the bedroom from the galley/saloon area. This is a lot better than some of the boats we've viewed on Apollo Duck where any guest would have to walk through the main bedroom to get to the loo!! The galley has been modified since build, since there is a slot in the ceiling panel above the fridge indicating that there was a cupboard of some sort between the counter and ceiling, and the seller did suggest the galley used to be quite different (i think there are photos of the original layout in the documents but we never got around to looking at them).

 

 

This is exactly the sort of stuff I mean that makes the boat worth LOADS more to you than to Mr and Mrs Average buyer.

 

You could spend years looking for another boat with this layout. Just bloody buy it!

[Froggy]

Ok, i'm back!! Music listening session has been abandoned until, hopefully, Sunday evening, i hadn't anticipated such a good response to this thread and it got too late in the end - but i wasn't up to it anyway really after going down with a bit of a cold earlier in the day, probably as a result of the long drive on Thursday to view the boat as it was being surveyed and some pretty naff motorway service station food on the way back. I guess that being doped up with lemsips and anti histamines isn't going to be optimum conditions for drinking ale and whisky, so maybe it's for the best!! Anyway, these issues with the boat are playing on my mind.....

 

I liked it from the pictures yes I think you have to try and knock off the cost of the repairs and maybe some new batteries, has it been craned back in yet? if not and you are buying get the blacking done as well

 

The boatyard couldn't fit the blacking in for weeks, and because we'd travelled over to Hertfordshire from Bristol the cost of doing it ourselves was prohibitive when factoring in several days of accommodation. The surveyor reckoned we could get away with the blacking until next year at which point we'd have the anodes done too if we were to buy the boat.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Froggy

[Froggy]

 

 

This is exactly the sort of stuff I mean that makes the boat worth LOADS more to you than to Mr and Mrs Average buyer.

 

You could spend years looking for another boat with this layout. Just bloody buy it!

 

Not quite so simple Mike, since we would probably buy with a view to keeping between 1 and 2 years and wouldn't want to take too big a hit when we sold, especially considering the fact we would have probably spent about 6k extra by the time the repairs, including blacking and anodes, survey, and some extra storage units, galvanic isolator etc. are taken into account. We were obviously prepared for a few small repairs, but major expense on the engine, heating system etc. are a different ball game. We'll be thinking this over for a day or two, having a good read of the survey report and, armed with this, will want to go back to view the boat and take a closer look at the faults that have been identified.

 

We have already put a 1k (refundable) deposit on the boat to secure it but don't want this dragging on for too long.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Froggy

[MtB]

Ok...

 

Off topic but did you just watch Jools Holland? MAGNIFICENT show.

 

Anoushka Shankhar. AMAZING woman in all respects!

[Froggy]

Ok...

 

Off topic but did you just watch Jools Holland? MAGNIFICENT show.

 

Anoushka Shankhar. AMAZING woman in all respects!

 

No, i didn't Mike, although i'm a big fan of Jools. I'm not familiar with this artist, i'll have to check her out. I've developed a really eclectic taste in music in recent years, ranging from rock, prog, wolrld, folk, blues, jazz etc. through to classical. And i don't mind wandering off topic now and then, especially where music is concerned. :-)

 

Ok, i'm normally up until about 3 on Saturday morning listening to music (and regretting it when i wake up worse for wear from too much booze and lack of sleep!) but i think i'll be turning in now and hoping to sleep off the remains of this cold. We're off sloe picking tomorrow if the weather holds, so will drop in on the thread either later in the day or Sunday morning.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Froggy

[MtB]

Ravi Shankar's daughter. Stunningly good sitar playing...

[Bee]

 

No, i didn't Mike, although i'm a big fan of Jools. I'm not familiar with this artist, i'll have to check her out. I've developed a really eclectic taste in music in recent years, ranging from rock, prog, wolrld, folk, blues, jazz etc. through to classical. And i don't mind wandering off topic now and then, especially where music is concerned. :-)

 

Ok, i'm normally up until about 3 on Saturday morning listening to music (and regretting it when i wake up worse for wear from too much booze and lack of sleep!) but i think i'll be turning in now and hoping to sleep off the remains of this cold. We're off sloe picking tomorrow if the weather holds, so will drop in on the thread either later in the day or Sunday morning.

Ah, that list was going quite well till 'Jazz' came up. Makes my teeth ache.

[Jak]

Hi. I've got the same cracked collar and found these links which may help:

 

Where to buy the collar

http://www.bowlandstoves.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=collar%20morso%20squirrel&PN=Morso-1410-1430-1440-Squirrel-Flue-Collar%2ehtml#SID=636

 

And a blog from a couple who did the job in a couple of hours and explain how

http://patienceafloat.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/replacing-flue-collar-on-morso-squirrel.html

 

This assumes the stove is solid otherwise of course...

 

I just bought a solid working 47' 1990 boat for 25k and this is one of a few issues to be sorted DIY over the next few months. So long as the basics are there is fun to have a project.

 

Good luck.

[Froggy]

Ravi Shankar's daughter. Stunningly good sitar playing...

 

Of course. I should have guessed. I love some of the work Ravi did with the Beatles, in particular the amazingly beautiful Within You Without You, possibly my all-time favourite Beatles song. I will definitely check her out.

[Froggy]

Ah, that list was going quite well till 'Jazz' came up. Makes my teeth ache.

 

I used to feel like that about jazz, and also found blues music boring, but i've really come to appreciate them over the years. Try it with a few beers, that usually helps! A really well performed piece of jazz is imo an expression of the soul; in fact the more i've listened to music the more i've realised how intertwined the genres are. Even David Gilmour has dabbled with jazz on his latest solo offering, Rattle That Lock, which i really like. The jazz-based The Girl In The Yellow Dress is imo one of the strongest songs on the album.

[Froggy]

Hi. I've got the same cracked collar and found these links which may help:

 

Where to buy the collar

http://www.bowlandstoves.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=collar%20morso%20squirrel&PN=Morso-1410-1430-1440-Squirrel-Flue-Collar%2ehtml#SID=636

 

And a blog from a couple who did the job in a couple of hours and explain how

http://patienceafloat.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/replacing-flue-collar-on-morso-squirrel.html

 

This assumes the stove is solid otherwise of course...

 

I just bought a solid working 47' 1990 boat for 25k and this is one of a few issues to be sorted DIY over the next few months. So long as the basics are there is fun to have a project.

 

Good luck.

 

Thanks very much, these look like extremely useful links.

 

One thing that's bugging me, something that Mike mentioned, is how, given a worst-case scenario, a new stove should translate into £1,000 worth of expenditure - or nearly double that if a boatyard does the job, given that the stove itself is, i believe, about £650 new. The flue pipe looks in good condition and i'm therefore assuming it can be reused, and the first link above confirms that the collar isn't too expensive. Am i missing something here?

Edited October 30, 2016 by Froggy

[Stormbringer]

We bought our boat fitted with a diesel stove and changed over to a multi fuel burner really cheaply! Bought a fire used off eBay (loads of choice) and did the fitting myself. Pretty easy to do, reused the flue as you suggest, still the best change to the boat 4 years on, and still going strong. Cost £130 iirc...

I did buy a welded steel fire though, I prefer them to cast ones...

[MtB]

 

Thanks very much, these look like extremely useful links. :-)

 

One thing that's bugging me, something that Mike mentioned, is how, given a worst-case scenario, a new stove should translate into £1,000 worth of expenditure - or nearly double that if a boatyard does the job, given that the stove itself is, i believe, about £650 new. The flue pipe looks in good condition and i'm therefore assuming it can be reused, and the first link above confirms that the collar isn't too expensive. Am i missing something here?

 

 

Yes. Squirrels tend to crack up all over the place once they hit 20 years old. No technical reason for this but it's what seems to happen to them. The collar cracking suggests this one is about that age, and even if you replace the collar there is every chance the whole stove is close to the point other parts also start cracking.

 

Mine fell to bits at 23 years old. Cracks everywhere!

Marc Almond on R6 now. Bedsit Land!

[Froggy]

 

 

Yes. Squirrels tend to crack up all over the place once they hit 20 years old. No technical reason for this but it's what seems to happen to them. The collar cracking suggests this one is about that age, and even if you replace the collar there is every chance the whole stove is close to the point other parts also start cracking.

 

Mine fell to bits at 23 years old. Cracks everywhere!

Marc Almond on R6 now. Bedsit Land!

 

Interesting, given that the seller is telling us that the stove was installed about two years ago. Possibly a tired stove already rather than a new one then, or maybe just badly installed.

 

I'm assuming that there is a music thread or subforum somewhere around here. If so i suspect i'll be bumping into you there somewhere in the future.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Froggy

[Froggy]

I think the boat the op has had surveyed has a Barrus Shire engine, these should stop when you turn the key, just like a car. If the surveyor thinks the noise could come from the timing belt, he's not familiar with engines. The Shire doesn't have a timing belt.

 

Probably my bad. The survey report mentions a badly adjusted drive belt. He noted a screeching noise on startup and rattling noise when power was increased.

A flat battery will stop the engine being stopped ' by the key'

 

On a number of occasions (prior to getting a new battery that 'held charge') I had to jump start my 'digger' (same Kubota engine as many NBs), after even some hours running it failed to stop by switching off the key and had to be 'stalled', or re-connect jump leads from the Tractor, which allowed the 'key' to work.

 

I would have expected a surveyor to have known that - especially if he had concerns about the state of the battery because of the 'eber situation'.

 

I would also be very reluctant to take the work of a surveyor who did not use ultrasound across at least 100 points around the hull.

 

I think you may have used one of the 'bad' surveyors.

 

We've now had the survey back and i can confirm that the surveyor did use ultrasound. Moreover, i have no reason to believe that he is anything less than a competent surveyor.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Froggy