Survey results - a leap in the dark?

[BruceinSanity]

Interesting, given that the seller is telling us that the stove was installed about two years ago. Possibly a tired stove already rather than a new one then, or maybe just badly installed.

 

I'm assuming that there is a music thread or subforum somewhere around here. If so i suspect i'll be bumping into you there somewhere in the future.

Poor installation, either preventing the flue from moving up and down in the roof collar as it expands and contracts or failing to stop the stove body moving when the boat is bumped hard, will knacker that collar very quickly.

[Froggy]

We're still highly uncertain of whether we're going to buy this boat. Does anybody know, assuming that the non-functioning of the Eberspacher is merely down to a non-functioning auxilliary battery, how much it would cost to have the Eberspacher serviced?

 

Another issue raised by the survey report is water below the engine, considered to be from either the stern gland or the water pump (bilge pump was found to be in working order). Is it possible that this may have happened when the boat was craned back into the water?

 

We like a lot about the boat but it's starting to seem a bit of a risk due to the amount of repair and service work required on the gas system, eberspacher, engine, bilge area and morso stove.

Poor installation, either preventing the flue from moving up and down in the roof collar as it expands and contracts or failing to stop the stove body moving when the boat is bumped hard, will knacker that collar very quickly.

 

Thanks for this. What would be the correct installation method to prevent this? The flue is presumably meant to be sealed to the collar by fire cement? Or is this a pointer to the issue?

Edited October 30, 2016 by Froggy

[Dexter's Shed]

I know naff all about boats, but this has been an interesting read, as for the worry around the Eberspacher , could you not simply take a new charged battery along, hook it up and then try it out, along with the engine ignition ? surely that would seal the deal one way or the other and may save ££££'s

[Captain Pegg]

Froggy,

 

You have already commited to buying this boat and being prepared to pay £33k for it. It is possible that you don't have the choice to pull out without incurring a much higher cost, i.e. your deposit and survey fees, than it will take to correct the items found in the survey. Check the terms of the purchase agreement you presumably have signed.

 

Ultimately I really can't see anything here that fundamentally affects a sale with a value of £33k.

 

Inform the broker of the findings of the survey and ask them to demonstrate that the Eberspacher works. It really is a very simple task. My view of it is that if it is advertised as having a certain piece of kit on board it is up to the seller/broker to ensure it works and is safe at point of sale. Same goes for the stove but batteries are expendable items. Try and get some leverage with the broker but I really can't see any reason why you shouldn't be entering into a discussion from any other point of view other than how to fairly complete the sale. It's certainly what the broker will want.

 

JP

Edited October 31, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[Froggy]

I know naff all about boats, but this has been an interesting read, as for the worry around the Eberspacher , could you not simply take a new charged battery along, hook it up and then try it out, along with the engine ignition ? surely that would seal the deal one way or the other and may save ££££'s

 

Worth thinking about, although as we don't currently have a boat the battery would be a wasted expense if we walked away. Although the seller is a broker and the boat has been lying in a marina for an indeterminate amount of time, i'm not impressed that the seller couldn't ensure the batteries were charged up, or even supply new batteries before putting the boat up for sale, given that 4 batteries at approx. £80 each is a little over £300, and that's before any trade discount he would get.

 

A working eberspacher wouldn't exactly seal the deal though, although would take us some considerable way. We'd still need a close look at a few things, in particular the Morso stove, weak flame from one of the hob burners, water ingress in the bilge, and a good listen to the noises from the engine. A non-functioning eberspacher, on the other hand, would probably be a deal breaker.

[Froggy]

Froggy,

 

You have already commited to buying this boat and being prepared to pay £33k for it. It is possible that you don't have the choice to pull out without incurring a much higher cost, i.e. your deposit and survey fees, than it will take to correct the items found in the survey. Check the terms of the purchase agreement you presumably have signed.

 

Ultimately I really can't see anything here that fundamentally effects a sale with a value of £33k.

 

Inform the broker of the findings of the survey and ask them to demonstrate that the Eberspacher works. It really is a very simple task. My view of it is that if it is advertised as having a certain piece of kit on board it is up to the seller/broker to ensure it works and is safe at point of sale. Same goes for the stove but batteries are expendable items. Try and get some leverage with the broker but I really can't see any reason why you shouldn't be entering into a discussion from any other point of view other than how to fairly complete the sale. It's certainly what the broker will want.

 

JP

 

I appreciate your opinions, but it's a bit more complicated. 1k deposit is refundable subject to survey, we have it in writing. We gave the seller a brief rundown of the survey immediately after the surveyor left and he didn't seem prepared to budge, citing that we had already negotiated a 2k reduction when our initial offer was made. He states he has other buyers interested. This of course may or may not be a bluff. It wouldn't be wise imo to assume that it is, but we're not going to be maneuvered into paying more than we're happy with either.

[Guest]

My boat is a 2001 Gary Gorton hull, identifiable by the heart shaped "hole" at the top of the rudder

Sorry the thread hijack... But I'm doing it anyway. My rudder has a heart shaped hole at the top, the gas locker ones are just round shaped. Does this mean they bought the rudder of Gary? Or perhaps stole it from a Gary boat when the other one fell off? The broker said the boat was built by a fabricator in Wolverhampton and fitted out by Stuart Cole, who I believe worked at Delph Marine, but then canalplan says it was built by Stuart Cole.

[Texasboater]

Sounds like Froggy is not committed to this boat. He should probably walk away. i would offer 30k and call the sellers bluff.

[MtB]

There is a far simpler way to rule out low battery voltage for the Eber not starting than lugging a new battery to the boat and connecting it up. Just start the flippin' engine! That will ensure it is being fed with 13.4V of alternator leccy.

 

If it still won't start with the engine running, it's either dead or the alternator is dead. Neither of which you want.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

I appreciate your opinions, but it's a bit more complicated. 1k deposit is refundable subject to survey, we have it in writing. We gave the seller a brief rundown of the survey immediately after the surveyor left and he didn't seem prepared to budge, citing that we had already negotiated a 2k reduction when our initial offer was made. He states he has other buyers interested. This of course may or may not be a bluff. It wouldn't be wise imo to assume that it is, but we're not going to be maneuvered into paying more than we're happy with either.

 

Just to be aware - the 'normal' terms of a 'deposit subject to survey' will contain a clause (something like), the buyers can only pull out - without loss of his deposit - if the sums needed to return it to the advertised condition exceed 10% of the agreed purchase price.

 

So if the necessary 'repairs' come to less than £3300 then if you pull out, you loose your deposit.

 

Read the small print of your contract - you may be OK, or you may be committed to buying it.

[Froggy]

Sorry the thread hijack... But I'm doing it anyway. My rudder has a heart shaped hole at the top, the gas locker ones are just round shaped. Does this mean they bought the rudder of Gary? Or perhaps stole it from a Gary boat when the other one fell off? The broker said the boat was built by a fabricator in Wolverhampton and fitted out by Stuart Cole, who I believe worked at Delph Marine, but then canalplan says it was built by Stuart Cole.

 

No problem, part of what makes for great discussion, imo, is wandering off topic from time to time.

[Froggy]

 

Just to be aware - the 'normal' terms of a 'deposit subject to survey' will contain a clause (something like), the buyers can only pull out - without loss of his deposit - if the sums needed to return it to the advertised condition exceed 10% of the agreed purchase price.

 

So if the necessary 'repairs' come to less than £3300 then if you pull out, you loose your deposit.

 

Read the small print of your contract - you may be OK, or you may be committed to buying it.

 

No t&c attached to ours, but thanks for the information, which is definitely something i'll bear in mind for the future.

There is a far simpler way to rule out low battery voltage for the Eber not starting than lugging a new battery to the boat and connecting it up. Just start the flippin' engine! That will ensure it is being fed with 13.4V of alternator leccy.

 

If it still won't start with the engine running, it's either dead or the alternator is dead. Neither of which you want.

 

Hmmm, the surveyor did mention that one of the alternators might not be working. Thanks for this input.

[mrsmelly]

 

No problem, part of what makes for great discussion, imo, is wandering off topic from time to time.

 

YE GODS!! wandering OFF TOPIC...................OFF TOPIC.................. Do you want to get banned already tsk tsk!! Did you not know that is theee number one cardinal sin and in the real world no one ever talks about more than one subject ever in one conversation. Wash you mouth out and repent sinner!!

 

Tim

[Sea Dog]

 

YE GODS!!...

 

...repent sinner!!

 

Tim

Religion!!

[mrsmelly]

Religion!!

 

[Froggy]

 

YE GODS!! wandering OFF TOPIC...................OFF TOPIC.................. Do you want to get banned already tsk tsk!! Did you not know that is theee number one cardinal sin and in the real world no one ever talks about more than one subject ever in one conversation. Wash you mouth out and repent sinner!!

 

Tim

 

Ha ha, you haven't heard me talking in the real world! it's a bit of a weakness of mine, but thanks for the warning, i'll try to restrict this to my own threads.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Ha ha, you haven't heard me talking in the real world! it's a bit of a weakness of mine, but thanks for the warning, i'll try to restrict this to my own threads.

 

Another thing to learn (CWDF rule) - they are NOT "your threads" you have no control over what is written or who writes anything, or when a thread is considered 'finished'.

[Froggy]

 

Another thing to learn (CWDF rule) - they are NOT "your threads" you have no control over what is written or who writes anything, or when a thread is considered 'finished'.

 

Ok, well i'll try and be a good boy.

[BruceinSanity]

Thanks for this. What would be the correct installation method to prevent this? The flue is presumably meant to be sealed to the collar by fire cement? Or is this a pointer to the issue?

The gap between the flue and the roof collar is usually sealed with glass fibre rope or the like with (I think) a bit of silicon sealant to waterproof it from above. That way, the flue can move longitudinally in the collar as the system heats up and cools down.

[Jak]

Subject to survey. Clear enough. As my surveyor said there is room for negotiation on the faults identified in the survey. The seller will know that if they lose you the next buyer will survey and find all the same issues. Just deduct repair costs and make a fair offer...

[ditchcrawler]

We're still highly uncertain of whether we're going to buy this boat. Does anybody know, assuming that the non-functioning of the Eberspacher is merely down to a non-functioning auxilliary battery, how much it would cost to have the Eberspacher serviced?

 

Another issue raised by the survey report is water below the engine, considered to be from either the stern gland or the water pump (bilge pump was found to be in working order). Is it possible that this may have happened when the boat was craned back into the water?

 

We like a lot about the boat but it's starting to seem a bit of a risk due to the amount of repair and service work required on the gas system, eberspacher, engine, bilge area and morso stove.

 

Thanks for this. What would be the correct installation method to prevent this? The flue is presumably meant to be sealed to the collar by fire cement? Or is this a pointer to the issue?

Probably no one has turned the stern tube greeser

[chubby]

Agreed .

 

You liked the boat enough to go to the expense of a survey . The stove will have had a crack in it when you looked over the boat . Does the hull get a good report from the surveyor ? Does the engine get a good report . If so , i'd say youre doing well so far . These are the fundamentals of your boat & if they get positive feedback from the surveyor thats great.

 

Perhaps list the faults from the survey .

Potential faulty alternator

Faulty eberspacher ( which model do you have ?)

Stove beyond repair

Knackered batteries

 

Try to ascertain costs involved in replacement and perhaps offer to split it with the owner . You will at the very least appear a reasonable buyer .

Unfortunately , the costs of boat ownership are occasionally high and that has to be accepted .

 

IMHO id say if you get another £500 - £1000 off the purchase price i think you ll have done well .

 

You dont HAVE to replace with another Morso , other less expensive options are available . Replacing an alternator will cost , yes , but not excessively so ( i think - best try to find out which type it is and have a google or ask back on here ) .

As for the eber - these things can be hit and miss anyway . Mine didn t work whenni bought my boat but i stripped it down and fixed it and its been fine for 2.5 years now so it needn t cost the earth to fix . If u have D4 or D5 W (or WSC) theres a pukka video on youtube showing how to do it .

 

All in all , i don t think this series of faults represent sufficient reason to walk away as the survey has cost you money which will need to be spent again on the next possible boat .

If the hulls good , the engines good ( get it serviced asap ) the layouts good , it " feels " right , then youre winning so why walk

 

Cheers

[Stormbringer]

Save yourself a grand!

Fix the Ebersplutter yourself as previously mentioned.

They are simple devices and there is plenty of info online...

I repaired the non working webasto when we bought our boat, but have only used it a few times since. Don't really need it with the solid fuel stove as well. OK as a backup I guess...

[Froggy]

The gap between the flue and the roof collar is usually sealed with glass fibre rope or the like with (I think) a bit of silicon sealant to waterproof it from above. That way, the flue can move longitudinally in the collar as the system heats up and cools down.

 

Thanks, in the end i took a look at the blog posted by someone above and realised that this is the correct method. So the presence of fire cement is beyond doubt a sign of an attempt to repair the collar.

Subject to survey. Clear enough. As my surveyor said there is room for negotiation on the faults identified in the survey. The seller will know that if they lose you the next buyer will survey and find all the same issues. Just deduct repair costs and make a fair offer...

 

It's a game of bluff i guess. But who knows whose bluff wins, or where the bluff ends.

Probably no one has turned the stern tube greeser

 

If it's as simple as that we'll be very happy.

[Froggy]

Save yourself a grand!

Fix the Ebersplutter yourself as previously mentioned.

They are simple devices and there is plenty of info online...

I repaired the non working webasto when we bought our boat, but have only used it a few times since. Don't really need it with the solid fuel stove as well. OK as a backup I guess...

 

Agreed .

 

You liked the boat enough to go to the expense of a survey . The stove will have had a crack in it when you looked over the boat . Does the hull get a good report from the surveyor ? Does the engine get a good report . If so , i'd say youre doing well so far . These are the fundamentals of your boat & if they get positive feedback from the surveyor thats great.

 

Perhaps list the faults from the survey .

Potential faulty alternator

Faulty eberspacher ( which model do you have ?)

Stove beyond repair

Knackered batteries

 

Try to ascertain costs involved in replacement and perhaps offer to split it with the owner . You will at the very least appear a reasonable buyer .

Unfortunately , the costs of boat ownership are occasionally high and that has to be accepted .

 

IMHO id say if you get another £500 - £1000 off the purchase price i think you ll have done well .

 

You dont HAVE to replace with another Morso , other less expensive options are available . Replacing an alternator will cost , yes , but not excessively so ( i think - best try to find out which type it is and have a google or ask back on here ) .

As for the eber - these things can be hit and miss anyway . Mine didn t work whenni bought my boat but i stripped it down and fixed it and its been fine for 2.5 years now so it needn t cost the earth to fix . If u have D4 or D5 W (or WSC) theres a pukka video on youtube showing how to do it .

 

All in all , i don t think this series of faults represent sufficient reason to walk away as the survey has cost you money which will need to be spent again on the next possible boat .

If the hulls good , the engines good ( get it serviced asap ) the layouts good , it " feels " right , then youre winning so why walk

 

Cheers

 

Thanks for this input, i'll take a look at the videos on the Eberspacher but i'm not happy with a boat being advertised as having an Eberspacher if it's non-functional. I haven't a clue what model it is, but it's likely to be one of the cheaper ones.This is essential for us with winter coming on, since it heats the radiators and (presumably) the hot water including the shower head. We're novices and never noticed the crack in the stove collar on first viewing, only when the surveyor pointed it out, and even if we had we wouldn't have realised the significance of it. At this stage it's possible it might just be a case of replacing the collar (the top cowl around the chimney is apparently shot too so work needs to be done in this area anyway), so at this stage it's too early to say that the stove is beyond repair. The hull is considered decent (maximum pitting 2mm in side plate, maximum 1mm pitting in the bottom plate, as discussed earlier in the thread).

 

 

One thing i've just remembered from the boat ad: it describes, in addition to the Eberspacher, an immersion heater and states 'not tested'. Could this be a way of saying that the Eberspacher is non-functional, or is this a separate device (calorifier)?

Edited October 30, 2016 by Froggy