Hidden market

[Earthwatcher]

Is there any kind of hidden market for narrowboats? Since joining the forum I've learned a lot about this world. After spending much of the summer so far, monitoring the brokerages while accumulating information on types, builders, fitters etc, plus all the gubbins that goes in to a narrow boat, I've been surprised just how few really good quality boats there have been for sale. Is it reflecting the housing market (which I've also been monitoring) or is it that people spend their summers enjoying their boats then think about selling or swapping in the autumn? Or have I become just too damn choosy?

 

What I've decided I want: Trad/semi-trad or tug with portholes.

 

Undecided: diesel or solid fuel stove, not too fussed,

                 loo: compost or pump out 

                 engine: if old must be relatively easy to maintain and start and not too noisy, don't mind polishing but don't want to be covered in oil and diesel.

 

I've always bought and sold my cars privately and sold a house that way once too - just advertised it in the local paper - but it seems to me that the brokerages have the NB market sewn up. If so, their shop windows are looking pretty bare. I just wonder if some boats are exchanged in other ways?

 

 

 

 

                                     

[Tony Brooks]

Try Boats & Outboards, Apollo Duck, Towpath Telegraph.All have loads of private narrowboat sales. Just as with Ebay be very aware of the potential for scammers.

[Neil2]

By definition, if there is a "hidden market" none of us are likely to know about it...

 

But my experience suggests very few narrowboats, even really nice ones, sell by word of mouth alone.

 

Your comments are typical of someone looking for their first boat.  You need a high disappointment threshold to find a decent boat, but especially these days when it is such a sellers market.

 

 

[Earthwatcher]

Why is it a sellers' market? Presumably the dearth of affordable housing for young people has had an impact. When talking about a hidden market I was thinking about those that exist in other spheres such as jobs where many of the best jobs are never advertised. I've seen nothing of quality on Gumtree or EBAY, but not that much on Apollo Duck either. I wondered if I spoke to some of the fitters I might hear of someone ordering a new one and thus having one to sell.

[Athy]

Yes, there is such a market. Some desirable boats are, according to experts in that field who contribute here, never publicly advertised for sale. But they tend to be "historic" craft such as ex-working boats.

[Earthwatcher]

I certainly don't have the expertise or rose-tinted spectacles to take on a historic boat but I do like the replicas, fake rivets or no. Shame I couldn't get to the Braunston meet just to look at and enjoy the work of those dedicated to maintaining those old boats. 

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, Earthwatcher said:

Why is it a sellers' market?

The 'elder generation' have never had so much 'disposable income'.

Pensions can now be taken early and in lump sums.

Folks are being able to afford to retire early and spend lump sums on their hobbies.

The cost of housing in major cities leads low-paid to seek alternatives, but they tend to buy-up the boats from Whilton marina (those about to sink) as they have no money to buy a decent one.

 

So, Good boats sell quickly because of the amount of cash floating around, Bad boats sell quickly because of the lack of available / affordable housing in the (primarily) South.

Leaving "Middle of the road boats" (say £20k-£30k) which can take a couple of days to sell to the rest of the boating hunting population.

 

[Earthwatcher]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The 'elder generation' have never had so much 'disposable income'.

Pensions can now be taken early and in lump sums.

Folks are being able to afford to retire early and spend lump sums on their hobbies.

The cost of housing in major cities leads low-paid to seek alternatives, but they tend to buy-up the boats from Whilton marina (those about to sink) as they have no money to buy a decent one.

 

So, Good boats sell quickly because of the amount of cash floating around, Bad boats sell quickly because of the lack of available / affordable housing in the (primarily) South.

Leaving "Middle of the road boats" (say £20k-£30k) which can take a couple of days to sell to the rest of the boating hunting population.

 

I think you're just about bang on there. I've recently (sort of) retired, thought about moving house, wept over the stamp duty, agents and solicitors fees etc, panicked over the prospect of packing up the accumulated stuff of a lifetime and thought that floating around might be fun. Sadly, so have thousands of other buggers in the same boat, but hopefully not mine when/if I find it.

[MtB]

33 minutes ago, Earthwatcher said:

I've seen nothing of quality on Gumtree or EBAY, but not that much on Apollo Duck either.

 

Couple of points here:

 

1) 'Quality' means different things to different people. To me, a 'quality' boat will probably be priced at over £50k and I bet I could find several dozen boats for sale right now on the various brokers' sites in that price range. What do YOU mean by 'quality', exactly?

 

2) The whole market for narrow boats is inherently tiny compared to houses. There are about 30m houses/flats in the UK but only about 30,000 narrow boats. If say 5% of the narrowboats are on the market at any given time that is a total of 1,500. Now depending on how you define 'quality, perhaps 10% of that 1,500 comprises 'quality' boats. That's 150. And now you start getting picky, saying you want portholes. Now only about 1% of narrow boats are portholes-only so you are down to 1.5 boats for sale that match your requirements.  

[Earthwatcher]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Couple of points here:

 

1) 'Quality' means different things to different people. To me, a 'quality' boat will probably be priced at over £50k and I bet I could find several dozen boats for sale right now on the various brokers' sites in that price range. What do YOU mean by 'quality', exactly?

 

2) The whole market for narrow boats is inherently tiny compared to houses. There are about 30m houses/flats in the UK but only about 30,000 narrow boats. If say 5% of the narrowboats are on the market at any given time that is a total of 1,500. Now depending on how you define 'quality, perhaps 10% of that 1,500 comprises 'quality' boats. That's 150. And now you start getting picky, saying you want portholes. Now only about 1% of narrow boats are portholes-only so you are down to 1.5 boats for sale that match your requirements.  

Yes, you're quite right, there's quality out there with bus windows but I've restricted myself and that's my bad. One per cent is indeed tiny and would explain a lot. Perhaps the answer is to get over the bus window prejudice which is probably steeped in an early childhood, always picking the same one on Play School. I'm not sure that quality is too difficult to define, easier perhaps to say what it's not, like Donald Trump, Love Island and anything worn by Kim Kardashian. Some boats look and feel right. Others, even when they're new, just don't. I don't think there's anything wrong with being picky, just needed a little whinge and thought coming here might help. More to the point, I wondered if this summer's market was about par for the course, or unusually thin. It just looks thin to me but I'm new to narrow boats (but not boating). 

[nicknorman]

Just on the portholes thing, quite a lot of boats including ours have bus windows in the living area and portholes for the bedroom and bathroom. This seems a good compromise to me and I have never quite seen the point of wanting to be on a boat where you can’t easily see out of the windows.

 

Or, you could buy a boat with bus windows and then fit curtains or blinds, cutting a hole in the centre to the same diameter as a porthole. Sorted!

[MtB]

17 minutes ago, Earthwatcher said:

Yes, you're quite right, there's quality out there with bus windows but I've restricted myself and that's my bad. One per cent is indeed tiny and would explain a lot. Perhaps the answer is to get over the bus window prejudice which is probably steeped in an early childhood, always picking the same one on Play School. I'm not sure that quality is too difficult to define, easier perhaps to say what it's not, like Donald Trump, Love Island and anything worn by Kim Kardashian. Some boats look and feel right. Others, even when they're new, just don't. I don't think there's anything wrong with being picky, just needed a little whinge and thought coming here might help. More to the point, I wondered if this summer's market was about par for the course, or unusually thin. It just looks thin to me but I'm new to narrow boats (but not boating). 

 

It's the economy. We are in the middle of a boom period and no-one sells their boat in boom times, but when the financial shyte hits the fan the first thing to go is the boat! 

 

Boats flood the market when the economy takes a nosedive and we all feel poor, the banks stop lending, bankruptcies rocket, etc etc. 

 

So now, any decent boat brought to market commands a high price which is why peeps say it is a sellers market. Wait until the next crash then buy. Oh but in the next crash, like everyone else you won't have the confidence to splash out, will you? Tricky one, isn't it!

 

 

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

r, you could buy a boat with bus windows and then fit curtains or blinds, cutting a hole in the centre to the same diameter as a porthole. Sorted!

 

OR.... Martin Kedian makes 'window to porthole conversions' to bolt over each of the horrid bus windows, for people exactly like the OP.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
speeling

[haggis]

11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Just on the portholes thing, quite a lot of boats including ours have bus windows in the living area and portholes for the bedroom and bathroom. This seems a good compromise to me and I have never quite seen the point of wanting to be on a boat where you can’t easily see out of the windows.

 

 

I'm with you on this Nick. Same layout as kelpie. I have been on a few boats with portholes only and even with prisms etc in the roof, they always seemed dull inside to me - I like light! I remember being on one port hole only boat during the day in the summer and the owner had to switch on a light. I accept that portholes are safer than bus windows agianst break ins but if someone wants to get into a boat, they'll get in. 

 

haggis

[Athy]

9 minutes ago, haggis said:

I'm with you on this Nick. Same layout as kelpie. I have been on a few boats with portholes only and even with prisms etc in the roof, they always seemed dull inside to me - I like light! I remember being on one port hole only boat during the day in the summer and the owner had to switch on a light. I accept that portholes are safer than bus windows agianst break ins but if someone wants to get into a boat, they'll get in. 

 

haggis

Much depends on the size of the p'holes: ideally they should be big enough to let in plenty of light but not so big as to look disproportionate. Dog-boxes with small portholes in them also help.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Athy

[mrsmelly]

55 minutes ago, Earthwatcher said:

Yes, you're quite right, there's quality out there with bus windows but I've restricted myself and that's my bad. One per cent is indeed tiny and would explain a lot. Perhaps the answer is to get over the bus window prejudice which is probably steeped in an early childhood, always picking the same one on Play School. I'm not sure that quality is too difficult to define, easier perhaps to say what it's not, like Donald Trump, Love Island and anything worn by Kim Kardashian. Some boats look and feel right. Others, even when they're new, just don't. I don't think there's anything wrong with being picky, just needed a little whinge and thought coming here might help. More to the point, I wondered if this summer's market was about par for the course, or unusually thin. It just looks thin to me but I'm new to narrow boats (but not boating). 

Panic not..............help is on the way.................If you believe half the forum members you only have to wait until march next year and narrowboats will be fifty pence each and buy one get one free as the UK will no longer have any money so everything will be cheap as chips!! I suggest not tying yourself down to any particular boat and look at things you may not have considered in you head as they may well work for you. I had for years whilst living on other boats hankered after a 70 foot Hudson but it had to have portholes and it wasn't allowed a bow thruster and it had to have a modern engine in the arse end. I looked one day and there was ONE for sale in the UK we looked it was immaculate and we bought it. Having been there done that I must say my present boat a colecraft with bus windows is a much nicer boat to live on in so many ways and its a semi trad which I had always avoided. In short keep an open mind.

[Machpoint005]

5 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

my present boat a colecraft with bus windows is a much nicer boat

Something else we agree on -- although we don;t (yet) live on ours.

[alan_fincher]

2 hours ago, Neil2 said:

By definition, if there is a "hidden market" none of us are likely to know about it...

 

But my experience suggests very few narrowboats, even really nice ones, sell by word of mouth alone.

Certainly not true for historic narrow boats, where the majority of such boats change hands without ever being openly advertised.

Generally these boats change hands without even those who might have had a strong interest ever finding out about it, until someone else has secured it.

 

OK, maybe not to relevant to what OP is asking, as they don't want a "historic", but it is actually quite hard to buy a decent "historic" if you are not in the inner circle of those who know what might be up for grabs.

[koukouvagia]

45 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Certainly not true for historic narrow boats, where the majority of such boats change hands without ever being openly advertised.

Generally these boats change hands without even those who might have had a strong interest ever finding out about it, until someone else has secured it.

That wasn't our experience.  We used the informal word-of-mouth network, but that didn't produce any results.  It was the good old Duck with a link to a website about the boat that did the trick - very quickly, I may add.

 

eta:

The following historic boats have been advertised on Apolloduck within the last couple of years.

Duke, Baildon, Acacia, Fern, Tug No.2, Cantley, Capella, Roe, Ethel, Mercury, Mutty(?), Aston, un-named Bantock, Roe, England, Emerald, Dane, Clara, Paragon, Drake, Owl.  I've probably missed a few.

This list doesn't include boats offered via a brokerage or posted on Facebook etc.

 

It's true that I can also think of several boats which have come up via the "hidden network", but there are also plenty of examples of historic boats openly advertised. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by koukouvagia

[reg]

In the meantime, if the op knows what they want no harm in using the boats wanted section on here 

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/forum/63-boats-wanted/

2 hours ago, Earthwatcher said:

, just needed a little whinge and thought coming here might help

Always helps to come on here and have a little whinge, even better in the virtual pub. Welcome by the way

[Earthwatcher]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Just on the portholes thing, quite a lot of boats including ours have bus windows in the living area and portholes for the bedroom and bathroom. This seems a good compromise to me and I have never quite seen the point of wanting to be on a boat where you can’t easily see out of the windows.

 

I think the portholes thing is something that's just settled with me, certainly wasn't there when I started looking. One thing that bugged me a little bit about the large windows on our hire boat was the lack of privacy when everyone who passes has a good nosey. But I did like the neat net curtains I saw on some boats. I like prisms too, they seem to shed quite a lot of light. Hatches throw plenty of light in too. I like hatches. The Colecraft boats seem good quality, and I appreciate the point that attitudes will change over time. The first time I saw an engine with its own room I thought "what's the point?". But I understand that now. Having a good looking boat, I think is important. I'm wondering if the answer might be to buy a boat a few years in and have a refit. I know this has proved popular among superyacht owners (there are more parallels between these two distinct worlds than you might think). Do any yards specialise in refits?

[Earthwatcher]

2 minutes ago, reg said:

In the meantime, if the op knows what they want no harm in using the boats wanted section on here 

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/forum/63-boats-wanted/

Always helps to come on here and have a little whinge, even better in the virtual pub. Welcome by the way

Thank you, I come here a lot, mostly peering in through the portholes, not sure about the pub, somebody might mention Brexit! Nah, surely not. PS. I spent ages wondering who this "OP" was until I guessed "original poster?" which would be me. 

 

I did wonder about using the boats wanted section but thought it was a bit forward to do so. I know that's what it's there for, but I noticed when someone did post a specific "want" it was quickly followed by a "you and everybody else" comment. Anyway I will post something there on behalf of everyone like me who thinks they know what they want, but don't really.

[Athy]

13 minutes ago, Earthwatcher said:

 The first time I saw an engine with its own room I thought "what's the point?". But I understand that now. 

Now you really are making progress!

(Guess where our engine is situated).

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, koukouvagia said:

The following historic boats have been advertised on Apolloduck within the last couple of years.

Duke, Baildon, Acacia, Fern, Tug No.2, Cantley, Capella, Roe, Ethel, Mercury, Mutty(?), Aston, un-named Bantock, Roe, England, Emerald, Dane, Clara, Paragon, Drake, Owl.  I've probably missed a few.

Fair point, (but you can only count each one once!)

You have missed Mabel and Forget-me-not, at least!

I guess the difference is that when I think of boats not advertised, they have of course all actually changed hands.  Clearly several of the ones in your list are unlikely to, at anything approaching the advertised prices, (evidenced by the sheer time advertised, or the number of times re-advertised).  I would suggest some are not truly "for sale" because the prices are just silly numbers.

[Earthwatcher]

23 minutes ago, Athy said:

Now you really are making progress!

(Guess where our engine is situated).

My wife doesn't think it's progress when she catches me watching narrow boat porn like this.

[Athy]

3 minutes ago, Earthwatcher said:

My wife doesn't think it's progress when she catches me watching narrow boat porn like this.

...and leaving a comment under it too!

Living with a Bolinder must take love and dedication. Don't get the wrong impression though, some of the engines found in such engine rooms, such as our Gardner, just start with a key like modern ones. Additional sales point: that room isn't just a place for the engine to live, it's also a store room, a drying room (ours has a washing line going front to back over the engine so that that lovely dry heat can dry out damp towels etc.), an extra radiator in cold weather, a tool shed, etc. etc. So it's far from being wasted space. Here endeth the lecture.