Stupid Stupid Rebranding

[rgreg]

7 hours ago, Sbg said:

We should soon see if it cost £60K as I've submitted a Freedom of Information request on the subject. Of course, what they tell me it cost and the real figure may (will) bear little resemblance to each other....

I'd be amazed if the £60K includes the signage replacement, which, from what I've seen so far, is changing very quickly. The notion that only "worn out" signage is being replaced does not seem to be the case and I'd be surprised if the cost for this exercise alone is less than £60K. To make matters worse, personally, I preferred the original.

I am normally very supportive of CRT and quite objective in my analysis of their actions but have to say that I am questioning the justification of this one.

Edited May 29, 2018 by rgreg

[Momac]

10 minutes ago, rgreg said:

I'd be amazed if the £60K includes the signage replacement, which, from what I've seen so far, is changing very quickly. The notion that only "worn out" signage is being replaced does not seem to be the case and I'd be surprised if the cost for this exercise alone is less than £60K. To make matters worse, personally, I preferred the original.

I am normally very supportive of CRT and quite objective in my analysis of their actions but have to say that I am questioning the justification of this one.

I don't see evidence of worn out signs in our area .

All signs in our area  have been replaced or updated with C&RT when they made the change from BW and are in good order (I am sure there may be an occasional exception).

 

£60k to replace all signs seems a very low number.

 

I thought the new C&RT logo looked familiar and noticed a very similar logo on the side of a Tarmac truck which has been in use for decades..........

https://tarmac-bluecircle.co.uk/trade/

 

There is nothing wrong with the existing logo and the black and white theme is appropriate given the traditional black and white used for painting bollards, lock railings etc etc .

A blue circle could be confused with a green light in some situations.

 

 

 

 

[mayalld]

36 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I don't see evidence of worn out signs in our area .

All signs in our area  have been replaced or updated with C&RT when they made the change from BW and are in good order (I am sure there may be an occasional exception).

 

£60k to replace all signs seems a very low number.

 

I thought the new C&RT logo looked familiar and noticed a very similar logo on the side of a Tarmac truck which has been in use for decades..........

https://tarmac-bluecircle.co.uk/trade/

 

There is nothing wrong with the existing logo and the black and white theme is appropriate given the traditional black and white used for painting bollards, lock railings etc etc .

A blue circle could be confused with a green light in some situations.

 

 

 

 

 

It is self-evident that the £60k doesn't include the replacement of signage. New signs aren't cheap.

 

They are dressing it up as a cheap exercise, and claiming to replace signs as they wear out, because whether a sign is worn out and in need of replacement is necessarily subjective.

 

Suffice it to say that over the past few days the level of dilapidation that is required to make a sign in need of replacement has been revised.

 

Let us keep in mind that replacing signs is "maintenance", so this stupid exercise is spending hard earned cash that should be fixing canals on new signs that aren't needed.

 

[Athy]

I find it hard to imagine signs "wearing out". I mean, they don't lead a hard life, do they? They just stand there being signs. especially as most modern CART signs appear to be made of plastic, they should have a very long life. Just a wipe with a damp cloth now and again and they should be as good as new.

[furnessvale]

£60k?  I think that probably refers to the launch press party!

 

I have seen a figure of £6.5 millions quoted elsewhere for the whole rebranding exercise which is closer to the mark.

 

George

 

[Ray T]

Not all signs wear out.

From my observations some tend to "fall off" the posts they are on and disappear, especially mooring restriction ones.

[Neil2]

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

I find it hard to imagine signs "wearing out". I mean, they don't lead a hard life, do they? They just stand there being signs. especially as most modern CART signs appear to be made of plastic, they should have a very long life. Just a wipe with a damp cloth now and again and they should be as good as new.

Even metal signs can be kept going indefinitely with a lick of paint now and then.  Isn't it one of life's little pleasures when you come across a really old sign that seems to have escaped the march of "progress", such as the old signposts that used to feature a helpful OS grid reference.  

 

 

[furnessvale]

37 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Even metal signs can be kept going indefinitely with a lick of paint now and then.  Isn't it one of life's little pleasures when you come across a really old sign that seems to have escaped the march of "progress", such as the old signposts that used to feature a helpful OS grid reference.  

 

 

Disgusting!  What a terrible saving of ratepayers money. 

 

I'm sure West Yorkshire must have a more up to date symbol, typeface, mission statement etc which should have replaced this outdated nonsense years ago!

 

George

[dmr]

53 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Even metal signs can be kept going indefinitely with a lick of paint now and then.  Isn't it one of life's little pleasures when you come across a really old sign that seems to have escaped the march of "progress", such as the old signposts that used to feature a helpful OS grid reference.  

 

 

 

If CaRT are serious about heritage and have £6.5 to squander they could have had a load of lovely cast signs made, just like these, maybe not historically correct but at least sympathetic.  I note on the K&A most of the cast bridge number plates have gone to be replaced by nasty plastic ones. I wonder if the metal ones were taken down and sold ?????

[john6767]

10 hours ago, Sbg said:

We should soon see if it cost £60K as I've submitted a Freedom of Information request on the subject. Of course, what they tell me it cost and the real figure may (will) bear little resemblance to each other....

I thought that the 60k was what they payed the agency for the development of the new brand identity.  I have to say that sounds remarkably cheap to me as well.  I can’t see any of the costs of implementing the branding change would be covered in the 60k.

[Alan de Enfield]

51 minutes ago, dmr said:

I note on the K&A most of the cast bridge number plates have gone to be replaced by nasty plastic ones. I wonder if the metal ones were taken down and sold ?????

I know that some of the (alleged) boaters on the K&A have a bad name, but is that suggestion not a 'bridge too far' ?

[MtB]

38 minutes ago, john6767 said:

I thought that the 60k was what they payed the agency for the development of the new brand identity.  I have to say that sounds remarkably cheap to me as well.  I can’t see any of the costs of implementing the branding change would be covered in the 60k.

 

This is my understanding too. Not sure quite where I got it from though. £60k is what the design agency were paid.

 

Last change of brand from BW to CRT was handled by stick-on CRT labels being stuck over all the BW logos IIRC. If only they would just do the same this time around, they could afford to fix the Middlewich embankment breach. 

[Machpoint005]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

I find it hard to imagine signs "wearing out". I mean, they don't lead a hard life, do they? They just stand there being signs. especially as most modern CART signs appear to be made of plastic, they should have a very long life. Just a wipe with a damp cloth now and again and they should be as good as new.

I know of several signs on the network that were already three 'rebrands' out of date. 

[mayalld]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I know that some of the (alleged) boaters on the K&A have a bad name, but is that suggestion not a 'bridge too far' ?

 

Not entirely.

 

There used to be a rather large metal sign on the Middlewich Branch, that you would see as you passed on the train. It isn't there now, and I understand that it was stolen. The fact that a boat had been squatting adjacent to the sign for weeks making a hell of a mess of the place was just a coincidence.

 

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

Disgusting!  What a terrible saving of ratepayers money. 

 

I'm sure West Yorkshire must have a more up to date symbol, typeface, mission statement etc which should have replaced this outdated nonsense years ago!

 

George

Ahem! West Riding of Yorkshire, but North Yorkshire.

[dmr]

41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I know that some of the (alleged) boaters on the K&A have a bad name, but is that suggestion not a 'bridge too far' ?

I really meant that CaRT took them away and sold them. K&A boaters would not nick cast metal bridge numbers.

 

but if they were made of wood and burned well that would be a different matter ?

 

..........Dave (its time to stop playing on the forum and go boating)

[manxmike]

3 hours ago, furnessvale said:

£60k?  I think that probably refers to the launch press party!

 

I have seen a figure of £6.5 millions quoted elsewhere for the whole rebranding exercise which is closer to the mark.

 

George

 

If that's just 1% of the budget then there's absolutely no problem with re-building the entire canal network and giving everyone free licences for the next ten years

[furnessvale]

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

Ahem! West Riding of Yorkshire, but North Yorkshire.

Thank you.  Even more reason why they should have been wasting spending money on new signs.

 

George

[Tanglewood]

16 hours ago, mayalld said:

I actually consider anybody coming up to me in a public place with a view to parting me from my cash as being pretty damn rude in the first place (on no amount of dressing the approach up in pleasantries or obsequiousness changes the underlying rudeness of it.

 

So, to my mind chuggers have imposed upon me uninvited, with no realistic expectation that I will be pleasant to them, because they don't know whether I'm a nice man or not, and been rude to me asking me for money. If I am anything other than rude back to them, that is really down to the fact that I actually am a fairly nice bloke (but keep that quiet, I have a reputation to maintain).

 

As it happens, I was approached by a towpath chugger this weekend.

 

I informed him that I did not wish to become a friend of CRT, as my putative friend already gets a sizeable wedge from my pocket each year, and also because I am very well aware of how little of what friends pay actually goes to the waterways, and that I am fairly unhappy about the money that is being wasted by CRT on this rebranding exercise.

 

He had clearly been briefed with an answer!

 

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

16 hours ago, mayalld said:

I actually consider anybody coming up to me in a public place with a view to parting me from my cash as being pretty damn rude in the first place (on no amount of dressing the approach up in pleasantries or obsequiousness changes the underlying rudeness of it.

 

So, to my mind chuggers have imposed upon me uninvited, with no realistic expectation that I will be pleasant to them, because they don't know whether I'm a nice man or not, and been rude to me asking me for money. If I am anything other than rude back to them, that is really down to the fact that I actually am a fairly nice bloke (but keep that quiet, I have a reputation to maintain).

 

As it happens, I was approached by a towpath chugger this weekend.

 

I informed him that I did not wish to become a friend of CRT, as my putative friend already gets a sizeable wedge from my pocket each year, and also because I am very well aware of how little of what friends pay actually goes to the waterways, and that I am fairly unhappy about the money that is being wasted by CRT on this rebranding exercise.

 

He had clearly been briefed with an answer!

 

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

16 hours ago, mayalld said:

I actually consider anybody coming up to me in a public place with a view to parting me from my cash as being pretty damn rude in the first place (on no amount of dressing the approach up in pleasantries or obsequiousness changes the underlying rudeness of it.

 

So, to my mind chuggers have imposed upon me uninvited, with no realistic expectation that I will be pleasant to them, because they don't know whether I'm a nice man or not, and been rude to me asking me for money. If I am anything other than rude back to them, that is really down to the fact that I actually am a fairly nice bloke (but keep that quiet, I have a reputation to maintain).

 

As it happens, I was approached by a towpath chugger this weekend.

 

I informed him that I did not wish to become a friend of CRT, as my putative friend already gets a sizeable wedge from my pocket each year, and also because I am very well aware of how little of what friends pay actually goes to the waterways, and that I am fairly unhappy about the money that is being wasted by CRT on this rebranding exercise.

 

He had clearly been briefed with an answer!

 

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

16 hours ago, mayalld said:

I actually consider anybody coming up to me in a public place with a view to parting me from my cash as being pretty damn rude in the first place (on no amount of dressing the approach up in pleasantries or obsequiousness changes the underlying rudeness of it.

 

So, to my mind chuggers have imposed upon me uninvited, with no realistic expectation that I will be pleasant to them, because they don't know whether I'm a nice man or not, and been rude to me asking me for money. If I am anything other than rude back to them, that is really down to the fact that I actually am a fairly nice bloke (but keep that quiet, I have a reputation to maintain).

 

As it happens, I was approached by a towpath chugger this weekend.

 

I informed him that I did not wish to become a friend of CRT, as my putative friend already gets a sizeable wedge from my pocket each year, and also because I am very well aware of how little of what friends pay actually goes to the waterways, and that I am fairly unhappy about the money that is being wasted by CRT on this rebranding exercise.

 

He had clearly been briefed with an answer!

 

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Tanglewood said:

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

Surely after the 1st time, you did know it.

The subsequent posts are then untrue !!

Edited May 29, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

57 minutes ago, Tanglewood said:

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

I didn't know this until I went looking but there is a fund-raising regulator who can investigate fund raising behaviour.  Particularly if it is not clear that the fund-raisers are working for an agency that is employed by a charity. 

https://www.fundraisingregulator.org.uk/make-a-complaint/complaints/

 

The multiple post bug strikes again!!!

[Neil2]

2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

Ahem! West Riding of Yorkshire, but North Yorkshire.

Sorry, the West Riding still exists, North Yorkshire is just an administrative area of local government. 

[alan_fincher]

4 hours ago, Ray T said:

Not all signs wear out.

From my observations some tend to "fall off" the posts they are on and disappear, especially mooring restriction ones.

 

Even this morning in Berkhamsted, new rebranded signs are going up, and it seems to be being used as an excuse the amend the totems to a more restrictive mooring regime than has ever been agreed for the town.

The last proposal for increased mooring restrictions in Berkhamsted was rejected, so other than a short length of "shop and drop" signs should make no reference to anything other than 14 days maximum stay in any visit.  However this morning "no more than 14 days per month in Berkhamsted" tiles have been added.  Whilst many, (most?), will consider that reasonable, it is not somethingthat has been agreed, and AFAIK, not something CRT has any legal powers to specify or enforce.

"14 days a month" signs do nothing to increase the general publics awareness of the CRT "brand" - they are purely for boaters, nobody else - so I would say CRT has been pretty dishonest about this whole exercise, or at least from my observations so far.

I'm very disillusioned by it, and not feeling at all motivated as a long serving volunteer for them.

[Tanglewood]

Joy of joy - if you choose to wander into the CRT Archive pages, apart from the fact that there is some fascinating material there, you will see that it has escaped the rebranding gnome, and happily displays, in a lovely easy on the eye teal green/black livery the swan and bridge - please keep this information secret.  

[nbfiresprite]

On 29/05/2018 at 09:12, Neil2 said:

Even metal signs can be kept going indefinitely with a lick of paint now and then.  Isn't it one of life's little pleasures when you come across a really old sign that seems to have escaped the march of "progress", such as the old signposts that used to feature a helpful OS grid reference.  

 

 

 

Down here in Dorset some road signs are painted red. This signpost is to the east of Bere Regis on the A31. It marks the location of a gibbet.