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6 hours ago, pete harrison said:

I remember Jack Monk with the large Woolwich motor BLETCHLEY and small Woolwich butty ARGUS, but the only thing he was loaded with was school kids :captain:

I once came across him with these boats stuck in the new bridge at Whittington, no kids on at the time, which as usual BW hadn't bothered to check for depth after the contractors had finished work and left the site ( - doesn't this sound familiar?)   I dragged him through, he promised to buy me a pint - needless to say I'm still waiting - perhaps in the next life.....?

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3 minutes ago, AMModels said:

As someone guilty of pretty much everything Pete accuses him of Id like to offer a counterpoint to his post regarding historic boat websites.

I started my research 40 odd years ago as a kid, raised by ex working boat people my every spare moment was spent on boats, talking about boats and if I am honest dreaming about boats (steering our boat along a road like a car, turning into our drive and taking the boat through the entryway between the two houses like a tunnel and mooring it in the back garden... yes, I had that dream a lot). I had exercise books full of boat names, where I saw them, whether they were converted or not, along with little snippets of information uttered by my granddad or uncle about the boat if they knew it. I had the a5 ish size Robert Wilson/Alan Faulkner books as presents when other kids were having toys and games because I loved old boats and needed to know as much about them as I could. I could identify a boats builder from its name or the style of its bow/stern as easily as other kids my age could reel off footballers or pop stars, I still couldnt tell you who sang what song or when even now.
As with most kids school exams and then starting work got in the way of my boating and the collection of information and in my own particular case numerous nervous breakdowns along with deaths in the family saw my information lost in house clearances and meltdowns of my own volition. But I still had that love, that deep seated connection to old boats and canals in general so I began to build it back up from a point of having lost everything, I had the intensely good fortune to meet and speak with others who shared that passion before I became as good as housebound and through those connections we shared and collated what we had and put the lists online as a means of spreading our passion. We knew we hadnt got everything right, we never claimed we had, in fact my website has disclaimers on its front page even now saying any mistakes are genuine and totally my fault and that if pointed out they will be rectified. 

About 2 and a half years ago I was in a very dark place, I was at the point of taking the site down and letting everything go but kind words on this forum and some amazing (to me) offers of help and support meant that the site not only survived but it is being rewritten, its a long job, not helped in the least by my own mental health being shite most of the time, but it is happening. People who have done the research hard yards are helping, I know I havent, mea culpa, not wishing to excuse it but I am extremely shy in person and the thought of actually meeting people and going somewhere new fills me with a terror I cant explain while at the same time making me feel wholly inadequate as a person, so its correct, I personally have not gone to the places where the information is held, not through want of desire or dedication but because I actually cant do it, for that I am sorry.

The people who are helping rewrite the site have been brilliant, I wont name them unless they want to come forward themselves but they have not judged me disappearing for almost 2 years, or cut me out of the loop for being the flakey idiot I am and for that I am eternally grateful. So while the point Pete makes is accurate, as in my opinion he is about everything narrow boat related, it doesnt tell the whole story.

Hopefully Ive shed a bit of light on what that story is, at least for me.

 

For my own peace of mind I have to say that this is in no way critical of anyone nor is it written with any malice or ill intention, I just feel bad when I see it as me letting people down with my not wholly accurate information on the website, I am trying to be better. Sorry.

Your story is incredible and many many thanks for posting this. I am really looking forward to finding your site and learning. There is so much to learn and enjoy. 

 

I have no historical connection to workboats but every time I see a town, star or royalty boat or pair go past I get emotional. Nothing in my blood that I know of, to me they just represent the good parts of a past that I long for: a slower pace more methodical but thorough, designed to last and with that good type of graft that makes beer taste even better at the end of it. 

 

Many many thanks for your comment. 

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4 hours ago, Ray T said:

If it's not CRT I'll delete it, then you may delete the copy if you so desire.

I don't think it's a problem Ray, as the only way one of my brothers pictures cam be out there is if he at some stage put it out there.

It just seems fair to point out it is his picture, taken by him, and not, I believe, in any archive.

 

I'll leave the version in my post.

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36 minutes ago, AMModels said:

As someone guilty of pretty much everything Pete accuses him of Id like to offer a counterpoint to his post regarding historic boat websites.

I started my research 40 odd years ago as a kid, raised by ex working boat people my every spare moment was spent on boats, talking about boats and if I am honest dreaming about boats (steering our boat along a road like a car, turning into our drive and taking the boat through the entryway between the two houses like a tunnel and mooring it in the back garden... yes, I had that dream a lot). I had exercise books full of boat names, where I saw them, whether they were converted or not, along with little snippets of information uttered by my granddad or uncle about the boat if they knew it. I had the a5 ish size Robert Wilson/Alan Faulkner books as presents when other kids were having toys and games because I loved old boats and needed to know as much about them as I could. I could identify a boats builder from its name or the style of its bow/stern as easily as other kids my age could reel off footballers or pop stars, I still couldnt tell you who sang what song or when even now.
As with most kids school exams and then starting work got in the way of my boating and the collection of information and in my own particular case numerous nervous breakdowns along with deaths in the family saw my information lost in house clearances and meltdowns of my own volition. But I still had that love, that deep seated connection to old boats and canals in general so I began to build it back up from a point of having lost everything, I had the intensely good fortune to meet and speak with others who shared that passion before I became as good as housebound and through those connections we shared and collated what we had and put the lists online as a means of spreading our passion. We knew we hadnt got everything right, we never claimed we had, in fact my website has disclaimers on its front page even now saying any mistakes are genuine and totally my fault and that if pointed out they will be rectified. 

About 2 and a half years ago I was in a very dark place, I was at the point of taking the site down and letting everything go but kind words on this forum and some amazing (to me) offers of help and support meant that the site not only survived but it is being rewritten, its a long job, not helped in the least by my own mental health being shite most of the time, but it is happening. People who have done the research hard yards are helping, I know I havent, mea culpa, not wishing to excuse it but I am extremely shy in person and the thought of actually meeting people and going somewhere new fills me with a terror I cant explain while at the same time making me feel wholly inadequate as a person, so its correct, I personally have not gone to the places where the information is held, not through want of desire or dedication but because I actually cant do it, for that I am sorry.

The people who are helping rewrite the site have been brilliant, I wont name them unless they want to come forward themselves but they have not judged me disappearing for almost 2 years, or cut me out of the loop for being the flakey idiot I am and for that I am eternally grateful. So while the point Pete makes is accurate, as in my opinion he is about everything narrow boat related, it doesnt tell the whole story.

Hopefully Ive shed a bit of light on what that story is, at least for me.

 

For my own peace of mind I have to say that this is in no way critical of anyone nor is it written with any malice or ill intention, I just feel bad when I see it as me letting people down with my not wholly accurate information on the website, I am trying to be better. Sorry.

Blimey Andy, what a post !

 

I was not pointing any particular finger, in fact I was very much generalising. I, like many others, look forward to seeing the new version of your website :captain:

31 minutes ago, Nimdoorquoi said:

I have no historical connection to workboats

But don't you own CAMBOURNE, or at least that was the impression you gave in a post on 17 July 2015 :captain:

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2 hours ago, AMModels said:

As someone guilty of pretty much everything Pete accuses him of Id like to offer a counterpoint to his post regarding historic boat websites.

I started my research 40 odd years ago as a kid, raised by ex working boat people my every spare moment was spent on boats, talking about boats and if I am honest dreaming about boats (steering our boat along a road like a car, turning into our drive and taking the boat through the entryway between the two houses like a tunnel and mooring it in the back garden... yes, I had that dream a lot). I had exercise books full of boat names, where I saw them, whether they were converted or not, along with little snippets of information uttered by my granddad or uncle about the boat if they knew it. I had the a5 ish size Robert Wilson/Alan Faulkner books as presents when other kids were having toys and games because I loved old boats and needed to know as much about them as I could. I could identify a boats builder from its name or the style of its bow/stern as easily as other kids my age could reel off footballers or pop stars, I still couldnt tell you who sang what song or when even now.
As with most kids school exams and then starting work got in the way of my boating and the collection of information and in my own particular case numerous nervous breakdowns along with deaths in the family saw my information lost in house clearances and meltdowns of my own volition. But I still had that love, that deep seated connection to old boats and canals in general so I began to build it back up from a point of having lost everything, I had the intensely good fortune to meet and speak with others who shared that passion before I became as good as housebound and through those connections we shared and collated what we had and put the lists online as a means of spreading our passion. We knew we hadnt got everything right, we never claimed we had, in fact my website has disclaimers on its front page even now saying any mistakes are genuine and totally my fault and that if pointed out they will be rectified. 

About 2 and a half years ago I was in a very dark place, I was at the point of taking the site down and letting everything go but kind words on this forum and some amazing (to me) offers of help and support meant that the site not only survived but it is being rewritten, its a long job, not helped in the least by my own mental health being shite most of the time, but it is happening. People who have done the research hard yards are helping, I know I havent, mea culpa, not wishing to excuse it but I am extremely shy in person and the thought of actually meeting people and going somewhere new fills me with a terror I cant explain while at the same time making me feel wholly inadequate as a person, so its correct, I personally have not gone to the places where the information is held, not through want of desire or dedication but because I actually cant do it, for that I am sorry.

The people who are helping rewrite the site have been brilliant, I wont name them unless they want to come forward themselves but they have not judged me disappearing for almost 2 years, or cut me out of the loop for being the flakey idiot I am and for that I am eternally grateful. So while the point Pete makes is accurate, as in my opinion he is about everything narrow boat related, it doesnt tell the whole story.

Hopefully Ive shed a bit of light on what that story is, at least for me.

 

For my own peace of mind I have to say that this is in no way critical of anyone nor is it written with any malice or ill intention, I just feel bad when I see it as me letting people down with my not wholly accurate information on the website, I am trying to be better. Sorry.

I've referred to your site, referred others to your site and enjoyed your site. I know it isn't perfect what is ? However I cannot imagine how much work has gone into it over the years. Life is about learning and you have helped many. A definitive is always hard as owners change, boats get modded and new history comes to light. After 6 years searching for pics of my boat  ,quite by accident I came across a picture of my boat with an extension cabin on it, a great surprise especialy as it almost mirrors one put on recently! History is only as good as the current update!

keep going and thank you

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11 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

I've referred to your site, referred others to your site and enjoyed your site. I know it isn't perfect what is ? However I cannot imagine how much work has gone into it over the years. Life is about learning and you have helped many. A definitive is always hard as owners change, boats get modded and new history comes to light. After 6 years searching for pics of my boat  ,quite by accident I came across a picture of my boat with an extension cabin on it, a great surprise especialy as it almost mirrors one put on recently! History is only as good as the current update!

keep going and thank you

That photograph (courtesy of Andy's website) dates to shortly after its conversion from a maintenance boat by Simon and Samantha Mitchell, Birmingham. The cabin dimensions were taken from a combination of BADSEY (owned by me) and BEAULIEU, and the works were carried out by the owners at Sherborne Street Wharf. When FENNY first arrived in Sherborne Street it still had a deck instead of a back cabin :captain:

 

fenny.jpg

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13 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

All that of course moved by an 18HP engine, making you realise how absurdly over-engined many modern leisure narrow boats actually are.

 

Not really, you aren't comparing like with like

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Thank you Pete as I said that's a new photo to me, more information always welcome.

we got the archivist at Ellesmere Port on the case a few years ago, "nothing" !!.

still building our info base up on her

Sorry Pete what date approx was this I'm guessing early 90s

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35 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Thank you Pete as I said that's a new photo to me, more information always welcome.

we got the archivist at Ellesmere Port on the case a few years ago, "nothing" !!.

still building our info base up on her

Sorry Pete what date approx was this I'm guessing early 90s

My records suggest that the Mitchell's owned FENNY from 1987 to 1998, so yes early 1990's would be a good guestimante. Some time during 1990 FENNY moved out of central Birmingham and took a mooring at Stourport :captain:

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On 17/05/2018 at 08:26, alan_fincher said:

Depends on what you mean by "fully laden", because the design of the boats with higher hull sides than most traditional craft of the time permitted a much larger theoretical load than the state of dredging of the canals ever actually allowed in practice.  Loading records tend to show these boats were not in practice loaded with any more tonnage than the classes of boat with lower hull sides.  Something in the range of 50 to 55 tons on a pair was the norm, 60 tons would be exceptional, although the boats themselves were more than capable.

 

I guess the combined empty weight of a pair of fully equipped boats was maybe around 25 tons, (I could be wrong though!), so I suggest boats plus a "full load" probably 75 to 80 tons.

 

All that of course moved by an 18HP engine, making you realise how absurdly over-engined many modern leisure narrow boats actually are.

So, you think my 50hp engine in a 55' unladen Narrowboat is a bit of overkill? Where do I get one of these tiddly 18hp engines.

Appropriate smilie not available.

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On 17/05/2018 at 08:26, alan_fincher said:

Depends on what you mean by "fully laden", because the design of the boats with higher hull sides than most traditional craft of the time permitted a much larger theoretical load than the state of dredging of the canals ever actually allowed in practice.  Loading records tend to show these boats were not in practice loaded with any more tonnage than the classes of boat with lower hull sides.  Something in the range of 50 to 55 tons on a pair was the norm, 60 tons would be exceptional, although the boats themselves were more than capable.

 

I guess the combined empty weight of a pair of fully equipped boats was maybe around 25 tons, (I could be wrong though!), so I suggest boats plus a "full load" probably 75 to 80 tons.

 

All that of course moved by an 18HP engine, making you realise how absurdly over-engined many modern leisure narrow boats actually are.

I seem to recall that your former "modern leisure narrow boat" had a 36HP engine, but I bet it would not have worked a pair of fully loaded working boats, or swung a 30" prop without complaining a lot. You cannot compare a "modern" oversquare engine with an old undersquare engine, which will produce far more torque at much lower speeds, which is what you need to get a heavy load moving (or stopping). They also produce less heat because of the longer crank case, which can absorb miore of the heat generated by friction, and is presumably why they can be air cooled, rather than have a water jacket.

Edited by David Schweizer
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As David points out - It's less about the HP output, and more about the torque. This is slightly off topic, but has a parallel. My farmer landlord speaks of modern tractors with disdain. They are 100+ HP monsters that need revs and many gears, and can still get stalled when working the ground. He loves his old three pot 45hp tractors with their five inch stroke and three and a half inch bore - they would slog. But as size means everything to the modern farm - we have tractors that can cope with many attachments working at once over wide swathes but last just a few years after which they are worthless. And if they breakdown due to some electronic component failing, the repair bill would be in telephone numbers. His modern 110hp air conditioned beast had a cooling fan fail. It's a hydrostatic fan that kicks in with engine temperature. The replacement part was close to £500, and treble that for fitting as half the tractor had to be dismantled to access the parts. Three radiators had to be removed after the front cowling was off; engine cooler; oil cooler; and air con.  Fortunately we have been able to drill and bolt the fan to the assembly making it a fixed fan. Cost - £80. He's currently restoring a 1968 MF 135 - little beauty. County fairs up and down the country will have their agricultural section, and there you will see farmers and others showing their 'as working' and restored examples, just as rallies have their ex-working boats. Just the same with motorcycles, cars, and commercial vehicles. The everyday has been superceded, and as we grow old we see folly in many things creating a longing for a simpler lifestyle and what went with it. Some hardships have gone, but so much else with them.

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1 hour ago, Nightwatch said:

So, you think my 50hp engine in a 55' unladen Narrowboat is a bit of overkill? Where do I get one of these tiddly 18hp engines.

Appropriate smilie not available.

I am sure that Richard Powell could source and fit one for you, but you may have to sacrifce 6ft of cabin space to fit it, tiiddley they are not.

Edited by David Schweizer

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9 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

I am sure that Richard Powell could source and fit one for you, but you may have to sacrifce 6ft of cabin space to fit it, tiiddley they are not.

Only 18hp, mine 50 he. Shirley nearly a third the size!!! Another smilie not available.

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Yes, I do know something about the physics, and my comment was of course more than a bit tongue in cheek - sorry to anybody who has taken it too earnestly.

However it is easy to forget that in the 1970s, if you went and bought a full length narrow boat conversion from Malcolm Braine, a marinised BMC 1500 engine, (maybe 30HP), was a fairly standard offering for engine choice.

 

I have recently re-read some old Waterways World reviews of such boats, that confirm my memory as correct.  In fact I went to view a Severner that Braine had, and when he quoted be some sale options, a BMC 1500 was what was suggested.

So I still think that if 30HP of "modern" engine could power a heavy 70 foot working boat conversion, the modern trend for 50 to 60HP units in leisure boat of two thirds the length and weight is somewhat overkill.

 

As an aside, I do miss the friendly "arguments" with Graham (NB Alnwick) about whether 66HP of slow revving Kelvin K3 is actual an appropriate engine in a modern boat.  Where are you these days, Graham, it would be good to have you back on the forum!

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8 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

 

As an aside, I do miss the friendly "arguments" with Graham (NB Alnwick) about whether 66HP of slow revving Kelvin K3 is actual an appropriate engine in a modern boat.  Where are you these days, Graham, it would be good to have you back on the forum!

Sorry to butt in, but I'm pleased to confirm that he and Jane are alive and well, as is 'Alnwick'. They have bought a thatched cottage in Cropredy, and have recently moved the boat from the towpath-side LT moorings to one of those rather desirable offside moorings at the Old Coal Wharf immediately below the sanny station. Graham, after several attempts at retiring, seems unable to do so, and is now with one of the age-concern type charities in a managerial capacity. He occasionally saunters past 'Trojan', looks at the 2LW and innocently asks, "Very nice; where's the main engine?"

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37 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Yes, I do know something about the physics, and my comment was of course more than a bit tongue in cheek - sorry to anybody who has taken it too earnestly.

However it is easy to forget that in the 1970s, if you went and bought a full length narrow boat conversion from Malcolm Braine, a marinised BMC 1500 engine, (maybe 30HP), was a fairly standard offering for engine choice.

 

I have recently re-read some old Waterways World reviews of such boats, that confirm my memory as correct.  In fact I went to view a Severner that Braine had, and when he quoted be some sale options, a BMC 1500 was what was suggested.

So I still think that if 30HP of "modern" engine could power a heavy 70 foot working boat conversion, the modern trend for 50 to 60HP units in leisure boat of two thirds the length and weight is somewhat overkill.

 

As an aside, I do miss the friendly "arguments" with Graham (NB Alnwick) about whether 66HP of slow revving Kelvin K3 is actual an appropriate engine in a modern boat.  Where are you these days, Graham, it would be good to have you back on the forum!

On the Thames maybe but on most canals, I rather doubt it. Not because of it's unladen weight but it's draught, As you know Helvetia had a BMC 1.5 (30HP) with a a draught of more than 30" underway, and I know that it struggled in some shallow canals where ex working boats with old high torque engines had far less difficulty. It is not about power, it is about torque

Edited by David Schweizer

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1 hour ago, David Schweizer said:

As you know Helvetia had a BMC 1.5 (30HP) with a a draught of more than 30" underway, and I know that it struggled in some shallow canals where ex working boats with old high torque engines had far less difficulty. It is not about power, it is about torque

 

I am a little surprised at this.  Surely with a 30" draft Helvetia could have carried quite a large prop, with suitable gearbox ratio to give the appropriate low speed and high torque, resulting in a similar performance to an ex working boat.  Or was Helvetia just fitted with an egg whisk? 

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27 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

I am a little surprised at this.  Surely with a 30" draft Helvetia could have carried quite a large prop, with suitable gearbox ratio to give the appropriate low speed and high torque, resulting in a similar performance to an ex working boat.  Or was Helvetia just fitted with an egg whisk? 

I would not have called it an egg whisk, but it was not huge  -  three blades, 17" diameter , (not sure about pitch) operating on a PRM 160D (later 260D) 2:1 reduction gearbox. It certainly looked small with that draught :-

 

Braunston 011.jpg

Edited by David Schweizer

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On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 07:45, Nimdoorquoi said:

How much would a fully laden pair of big woolwichs have weighed?

Approx 40 tons for the boats unladen, then add as much cargo as possible. At a rough guess 80 tons gross.

Edited by Laurence Hogg

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On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 14:10, Nimdoorquoi said:

 

I wonder, does anyone know of any photographs of Cambourne prior to conversion? It would have been privately owned but still carrying with a new BW back cabin. 

Yes in 1937.

 

 

COSGROVE 1937 MB CAMBOURNE BB CHEAM.jpg

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On Thu May 17 2018 at 08:42, alan_fincher said:

I also had in my head that the difference in weight between an empty motor and empty butty was of the order of 4 tons.  This always kind of surprises me, as the engine and gearbox itself would weigh less than a ton.  Obviously the engine room and engine bearers adds a bit, but there isn't that much steel in those.  Apart from that you have stern gear and prop shaft, extra weight of a counter stern, and fuel and fuel tanks, (I'm assuming quoted weights normally assume fuel tanks are full?).

 

What people may not realise is that without some added ballast the back end of these boats would float a lot higher than most unconverted examples you see now that people think of as "empty".  In practice most have at least a ton of ballast at the back to keep the back end down to a point where thew prop is reasonably effective.  Why several of the uhe ubiquitous 40 gallon blue plastic barrels  are too be found in so many unconverted boats!

there are quite a few pics about of boats fully empty and there is a good 6 inches of counter above the water some you can even see the prop in photos.

 

i know its a josher but we put 8 blue barrels and 12 25-30l screenwash bottles in peacock and only just got the counter in the water

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1 hour ago, billybobbooth said:

there are quite a few pics about of boats fully empty and there is a good 6 inches of counter above the water some you can even see the prop in photos.

 

i know its a josher but we put 8 blue barrels and 12 25-30l screenwash bottles in peacock and only just got the counter in the water

The boats you see in photographs where the counter is 'a good 6 inches' out of the water / 'see the prop' are usually about to be loaded and so have been pumped out as water was sometimes used as ballast whilst empty.

 

I have just retrieved OTLEY off the Thames and when we started off the counter was at least 4 inches out of the water. OTLEY pulled the counter to just about flat on within half a boat length and certainly stopped with no problem at all as it appears to be a good set up regarding engine / gearbox / propeller. I have always had my motor's set up like this (counter a few inches out of the water) as it helps to minimise draught when on the move, and with a little more water under the boat it helps the boat move more efficiently. The bouyancy (spelling ?) of an empty butty on cross straps will also help to stop the motor counter going down too far which is why an empty pair can sometimes be quicker than a single motor.

 

A motor that is set up with its counter flat on when stationary is going to be very deep draughted when on the move, hitting underwater obstructions more often and finding it that little bit harder to tie alongside the bank. As for PEACOCK I bet it looked really good with all those plastic barrels in the back end :captain:

Edited by pete harrison

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On 18/05/2018 at 14:00, alan_fincher said:

I still think that if 30HP of "modern" engine could power a heavy 70 foot working boat conversion.

I can compare the 44hp Kelvin I had in Owl with the 1800 BMC I have in Hampton.  Both are converted ex-working boats, both weigh about the same.

The BMC  propels the boat faster than the Kelvin, but the stopping distance is greater because of the egg whisk prop.

 

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