Due Diligence

[Dr Bob]

13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Nope.

 

If you think there is, can you quote it please? 

 

Much obliged...

Sale of goods act covers 2nd hand stuff and a boat sold and owned by  Marina will fall under this.

https://www.moneywise.co.uk/shopping/your-rights-when-buying-second-hand-goods

 

i would think the chance of getting any recompense via the courts would be zilch as all the marina needs to do is describe it as accurately as they can. Anyone here ever managed to return a new car after 3 months when you hear it needs a safety recall?

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, Parahandy said:

I suppose even with the best of intentions there must be a limit to what they can check ? I know some car dealers have a tick sheet that comes with the Cars paperwork but I haven't seen similar in a Brokerage

 

Indeed. Whilton may even have already checked BSS, engine starts, batteries charge, fuel in tank, gas in locker, water in tank, engine oil level, door locks work, water heater works, forward and reverse drive engages, tiller bar, mooring stakes, windlass all present, and advised them to buy insurance and a license. But dammit, they forgot to check for mooring lines!

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, Athy said:

...and my question was not rhetorical, as I sought enlightenment. I have heard the expression "fit for purpose" applied to the sale of goods. So it doesn't apply to boats?

Any business selling 'in the course of a business' is legally obliged to meet various aspects of legislation which basically cover 'fit for purpose', as described etc, and must accept returns up to a 'reasonable period' (normally taken as 6 months). This applies to both new and 2nd hand goods.

 

A broker is NOT selling in the course of a business and is simply representing the seller. There is no legal obligation for the broker to identify, list or point out ANY faults, but anything they do say must be true to the best of their knowledge. If asked a question they must give a truthful answer (to the specific details as asked) ie there is a difference to "is the hull sound" to "are you aware of any structural or thickness problems with the Hull that could make fully comprehensive insurance difficult to obtain"

This is why you will commonly see a disclaimer on Brokers boat details saying (something to the effect) "Information provided to us by the owner, we suggest you confirm for yourself the condition of the boat"

 

A private seller of 2nd hand goods has no legal liability or responsibility but should tell the truth and any facts given should be truthful.

 

Extract from a "Which" article on buying 2nd hand goods.

 

Your second-hand shopping rights
 

·         Second-hand goods bought from online retailers are covered by the Consumer Contracts Regulations.

·         If you buy second-hand goods from a retailer, you're also covered by the Consumer Rights Act.

·         Buyer beware if you’re buying from a private seller - they don't have to draw attention to defects.

 

Caveat Emptor

Edited May 15, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

Thanks to Dr Bob and Alan. I thought second hand goods were not covered. 

 

Even so, we still haven't dealt with Athy's belief that second hand boats need to be 'fit for purpose' and therefore must be supplied with serviceable mooring lines, AFAICS.

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[Athy]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Thanks to Dr Bob and Alan. I thought second hand goods were not covered. 

 

Even so, we still haven't dealt with Athy's belief that second hand boats need to be 'fit for purpose' and therefore must be supplied with serviceable mooring lines, AFAICS.

 

 

 

Firstly, I expressed no such belief, I asked a question which, in the best CWDF tradition, has been answered in varying ways by different people.

Secondly, what is an AFAICS?

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Thanks to Dr Bob and Alan. I thought second hand goods were not covered. 

 

 

Just to clarify - they are if sold by a 'business', they are not if sold by a private seller.

[bizzard]

Talking of gas installations. A few years ago here, a 4 year old wide beam Liverpool boat failed its first BSS exam on a gas leak. Firstly I found the bubble tester connections leaking, ok in the gas bottle locker so not too bad. I fxed that and still a leak, so I now  start searchng wth me leak liqud. Arrved at the under hob oven and could smell gas. Pulled it out and dscovered a bad leak where a brass reducer had been screwed into the inlet bush on the oven. The threads were parallel wth no sealant, washer, nothng on it. Very dangerous. This had been like that for four years!!. Presumably a Corgi or gas safe bloke had installed the system at Liverpool Boats. It had also failed on unclipped gas pipe in the front well which was hanging down which I also fixed. I started my air compressor up on the bank and ran a hose into the bilge with open hatches to blow out any accumulated gas.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, bizzard said:

Presumably a Corgi or gas safe bloke had installed the system at Liverpool Boats.

 

I doubt that very much. When New Boat Co sold from T&K marina they used to use me to inspect the gas installation on every boat they sold. I checked dozens if not hundreds of Liverpool boats, and NEVER found one with a gas-tight installation. Your unsealed threaded joint was typical. I got the impression the gas was installed by unskilled people and could not possibly have been tested before dispatch.  

[bizzard]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I doubt that very much. When New Boat Co sold from T&K marina they used to use me to inspect the gas installation on every boat they sold. I checked dozens if not hundreds of Liverpool boats, and NEVER found one with a gas-tight installation. Your unsealed threaded joint was typical. I got the impression the gas was installed by unskilled people and could not possibly have been tested before dispatch.  

I'm almost sure this boat was supplied by the New Boat Co.  Perhaps you were on holiday.

[MtB]

Just now, bizzard said:

I'm almost sure this boat was supplied by the New Boat Co.  Perhaps you were on holiday.

 

I doubt it.

 

It was a continuing stream of complaints about leaky gas installations on new Liverpool boats that lead NBC to start having the gas tested before handing over new boats. Your was possibly one of those. There is no doubt the leak you describe would have been huge and immediately detected by a simple tightness test. 

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

A new boat does not need a BSS.

 

The RCD is deemed good enough IIRC.

OK,  how would you test gas for RCD cert? (Gas tails still with caps on)

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Your point is a valid one; but is there no law which says that a boat should be "fit for purpose"? If you can't moor it because it has no stakes or ropes, then surely it isn't?

I suppose they didn't bother as I move boats not moor them....

[MtB]

1 minute ago, matty40s said:

OK,  how would you test gas for RCD cert? (Gas tails still with caps on)

 

The procedure is fully explained in one of the appendices in BS5482 Part 3, several pages of it I'm not going to type out here.

 

Now superseded by BS 54823 (I think)

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The procedure is fully explained in one of the appendices in BS5482 Part 3, several pages of it I'm not going to type out here.

 

Now superseded by BS 54823 (I think)

ISO 10239 'Small Craft LPG Systems" (as per the RCD)

 

10 LPG installation system tests
10.1 Before putting the LPG system into operation, verify, from the connection at the pressure regulator to
the closed burner valves at the appliances, that the system has been correctly installed; prior to charging the
system with LPG, submit it, with shut-off valves open, to an air pressure test at three times the nominal
pressure but not more than 0,015 MPa. The system shall be deemed sound if, after a period of 5 min (to allow
for pressure equilibrium), the pressure remains constant at ± 0,000 5 MPa for the following 5 min. An
appropriate leak detection fluid may be used on connections to locate sources of leakage.

 

CAUTION — Ammonia, which is present in some soaps and detergents, attacks brass fittings.
Although damage is undetectable at first, brass fittings may crack and leak within a matter of months
after contact with ammonia.

[WotEver]

48 minutes ago, Athy said:

what is an AFAICS?

As Far As I Can See

54 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

we still haven't dealt with Athy's belief that second hand boats need to be 'fit for purpose' and therefore must be supplied with serviceable mooring lines,

A boat doesn’t require mooring lines to be fit for purpose. It floats, it goes backwards and forwards, it steers, the various services work. It is therefore fit for the purpose of navigating the waterways. 

[Athy]

9 minutes ago, WotEver said:

As Far As I Can See

 

Thanks for breaking the code!

[PaulJ]

I think it all depends on the broker-Im fairly sure a quality brokerage eg ABNB state all boats going for sale should include ropes, windlasses, mooring equipment etc..

 

[Parahandy]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

ISO 10239 'Small Craft LPG Systems" (as per the RCD)

 

10 LPG installation system tests
10.1 Before putting the LPG system into operation, verify, from the connection at the pressure regulator to
the closed burner valves at the appliances, that the system has been correctly installed; prior to charging the
system with LPG, submit it, with shut-off valves open, to an air pressure test at three times the nominal
pressure but not more than 0,015 MPa. The system shall be deemed sound if, after a period of 5 min (to allow
for pressure equilibrium), the pressure remains constant at ± 0,000 5 MPa for the following 5 min. An
appropriate leak detection fluid may be used on connections to locate sources of leakage.

 

CAUTION — Ammonia, which is present in some soaps and detergents, attacks brass fittings.
Although damage is undetectable at first, brass fittings may crack and leak within a matter of months
after contact with ammonia.

Interesting about Ammonia and Brass Fittings Mike I never knew that .

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Parahandy said:

Interesting about Ammonia and Brass Fittings Mike I never knew that .

No problem Gloria - glad to help.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

38 minutes ago, Parahandy said:

Interesting about Ammonia and Brass Fittings Mike I never knew that .

 

Youre most welcome! 

 

 

[70liveaboard]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I doubt that very much. When New Boat Co sold from T&K marina they used to use me to inspect the gas installation on every boat they sold. I checked dozens if not hundreds of Liverpool boats, and NEVER found one with a gas-tight installation. Your unsealed threaded joint was typical. I got the impression the gas was installed by unskilled people and could not possibly have been tested before dispatch.  

Inspecting the gas. What years were these between ? (I'm just interested)

 

OP

You did the right thing helping, we all need help from time to time.

[Horace42]

1 hour ago, Parahandy said:

Interesting about Ammonia and Brass Fittings Mike I never knew that .

Interesting that. Is there enough ammonia in soap or detergent to harm brass? - does that mean a special soap should be used if you want to wash brass fittings ?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

33 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

Interesting that. Is there enough ammonia in soap or detergent to harm brass? - does that mean a special soap should be used if you want to wash brass fittings ?

 

I would imagine that as the ISO standards makes mention of it the answer to your question must be 'yes'

 

Mike.

[adam1uk]

We crossed with a boat comming down Stoke Bruerne Locks a couple of years ago, after it had been picked up that morning from Whilton.  The guy was struggling with his first locks, not least because he didn’t know how to keep the boat into the side while waiting for the lock.  I suggested he fish his stern rope out of the water before it got round his prop, and asked him if he had a centre line.  Not only did he not have a centre line, there wasn’t one of the bow either.  I asked him how he was going to moor up with only one rope, and the thought hadn’t even crossed his mind.  I also wondered how the boat had been moored up at Whilton.

[Athy]

3 minutes ago, adam1uk said:

We crossed with a boat comming down Stoke Bruerne Locks a couple of years ago, after it had been picked up that morning from Whilton.  The guy was struggling with his first locks, not least because he didn’t know how to keep the boat into the side while waiting for the lock.  I suggested he fish his stern rope out of the water before it got round his prop, and asked him if he had a centre line.  Not only did he not have a centre line, there wasn’t one of the bow either.  I asked him how he was going to moor up with only one rope, and the thought hadn’t even crossed his mind.  I also wondered how the boat had been moored up at Whilton.

From memory, the sales boats are jammed pretty tight at Whilton Marina, so the ones at the sides of it would have kept it in place.

[Dave_P]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

My question was rhetorical, as I know you will be unable to answer, as there is no such law. 

Actually there's the Sale of Goods Act.