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cuthound

March of the Widebeams

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1 minute ago, john6767 said:

The navigable width is however quoted as 12'6"

I believe that the air draft here 'has the final word' so to speak!

1 minute ago, frangar said:

Indeed! At this rate CRT will be rebuilding foxton inclined plane in case this widrbeam fancies going onto the summit....plus implementing the pipe lock thing for Watford.....

All in hand I'm assured .......... and just for good measure they're going to make the entire Hurleston Flight suitable for wide beams ...........

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If cart are going to this effort why don't they do a proper job and make it 14ft? Then breasted pairs could pass ;)

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As I said earlier on, Delta Marine have built a number of similar craft. While it’s possible they were all transported out by road or remain west of Stockton I think that’s highly unlikely. The published dimensions are long standing and so is the Blue Lias bridge. Draw your own conclusion.

 

The idea that the local maintenance team shouldn’t undertake expedient work to restore a breach of CRTs legal obligations on the basis that some other larger capital works in a different region are delayed is nonsensical.

 

JP

 

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9 minutes ago, Loddon said:

If cart are going to this effort why don't they do a proper job and make it 14ft? Then breasted pairs could pass ;)

'cause then they'd have to wonder up the cut and do the same thing to Blue Lias bridge?

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1 minute ago, Loddon said:

If cart are going to this effort why don't they do a proper job and make it 14ft? Then breasted pairs could pass ;)

The 12’ 6” dimension applies from north of Berkhamsted. The notion that the canal is not suitable for wide beams north of Berkhamsted is because reduced dredging dimensions applied north of Berkhamsted; probably due to the lack of usage by wide beam boats. So it’s a bit chicken and egg really.

 

JP

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22 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

As I said earlier on, Delta Marine have built a number of similar craft. While it’s possible they were all transported out by road or remain west of Stockton I think that’s highly unlikely. The published dimensions are long standing and so is the Blue Lias bridge. Draw your own conclusion.

 

The idea that the local maintenance team shouldn’t undertake expedient work to restore a breach of CRTs legal obligations on the basis that some other larger capital works in a different region are delayed is nonsensical.

 

JP

 

So what about the “narrow” locks that have moved so most heritage craft and a few modern ones no longer fit...shouldn’t this be dealt with ASAP?? This seems a lot of effort and expense for a couple of boats. 

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16 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

 The 12’ 6” dimension applies from north of Berkhamsted. The notion that the canal is not suitable for wide beams north of Berkhamsted is because reduced dredging dimensions applied north of Berkhamsted; probably due to the lack of usage by wide beam boats. So it’s a bit chicken and egg really.

 

Wide beam boats not being allowed north of Berko is an urban myth. It has never been so despite what some people say.

 

3 minutes ago, frangar said:

So what about the “narrow” locks that have moved so most heritage craft and a few modern ones no longer fit...shouldn’t this be dealt with ASAP?? This seems a lot of effort and expense for a couple of boats. 

Yes it should but with cart there is less chance of it happening than there was with BW

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2 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Wide beam boats not being allowed north of Berko is an urban myth. It has never been so despite what some people say.

 

It’s not that urban. There is a width change at berko. Personally I think some road style posts world be a great addition....

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5 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Wide beam boats not being allowed north of Berko is an urban myth. It has never been so despite what some people say.

 

 

6 minutes ago, frangar said:

It’s not that urban. There is a width change at berko. Personally I think some road style posts world be a great addition....

I’m not aware that the canal as constructed is any different in its dimensions either side of Berkhamsted. It has most definitely been maintained to different dimensions for many years.

 

JP

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17 minutes ago, frangar said:

It’s not that urban. There is a width change at berko. Personally I think some road style posts world be a great addition....

Never noticed a width change in 26 years in that area. ;)

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Never noticed a width change in 26 years in that area. ;)

 

 

You need to look at the published widths then. 

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22 minutes ago, frangar said:

So what about the “narrow” locks that have moved so most heritage craft and a few modern ones no longer fit...shouldn’t this be dealt with ASAP?? This seems a lot of effort and expense for a couple of boats. 

The legal dimensions should be maintained at all times and when breached should be restored as soon as practicable. I believe it was intended this should have been achieved after last winter’s work at Hurleston but was unsuccessful. Practicable in this case meaning that the canal was reopened in spring for further work next winter rather than being kept closed through a period of high demand.

 

On the Llangollen is not the case that there has never been a legal requirement to achieve an absolute width suitable for most heritage craft even though most were previously able to transit?

 

I don’t suggest that CRT shouldn’t endeavour to clear Hurleston for historic craft but I do think it correct that they prioritise in accordance with their legal obligations. In any case the works at Stockton and Hurleston are not mutually exclusive. Given it has taken two weeks to mobilise at Stockton the works are likely to be straightforward and funded by the maintenance budget whereas Hurleston is a rather bigger piece of capital work.

 

JP

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Hurlston requires a complete rebuild.

It is to be done at a time that will cause the least problems (overdue I know, but planned).

If there is an issue with Warwickshire Fly bridge that can be easily remedied that's good news.

I wish more preventative maintenance was conducted, rather than merely responding to problems, but better that than nothing.

Rog

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1 hour ago, frangar said:

It’s not that urban. There is a width change at berko. Personally I think some road style posts world be a great addition....

 

Too late though, you would trap loads of widebeams north of Berko 😣

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The challenge I have/had is whether they can change the 'legal dimensions' at will. I bought a boat for the K&A, put it on the canal and they then reduced the dimensions and said it was my fault when I didn't fit anymore. 

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1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

The legal dimensions should be maintained at all times and when breached should be restored as soon as practicable. I believe it was intended this should have been achieved after last winter’s work at Hurleston but was unsuccessful. Practicable in this case meaning that the canal was reopened in spring for further work next winter rather than being kept closed through a period of high demand.

 

On the Llangollen is not the case that there has never been a legal requirement to achieve an absolute width suitable for most heritage craft even though most were previously able to transit?

 

I don’t suggest that CRT shouldn’t endeavour to clear Hurleston for historic craft but I do think it correct that they prioritise in accordance with their legal obligations. In any case the works at Stockton and Hurleston are not mutually exclusive. Given it has taken two weeks to mobilise at Stockton the works are likely to be straightforward and funded by the maintenance budget whereas Hurleston is a rather bigger piece of capital work.

 

JP

I think you'll find that it's not only historic craft that are getting stuck. there have been instances of private and hire boats struggling through and some getting stuck.

There is some serious subsidence occuring here which has accelerated alarmingly in the last couple of years.

I've been working close by here for a few years now and I can assure you you don't need a laser or tape measure to see the how the lock is slowly collapsing into the sunset........

Hopefully this Winters stoppage will arrest this damage otherwise you'll be struggling to get a canoe up the flight.

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Getting up and down horse boat canals with a 1930s built boat designed for a network modified to suit it is a bonus.

what is annoying is not being able to go places that you used to able to.

having 14 foot boats with amateur crews on a canal built for 12’6 boats is a different matter. Especially when the professionals tried it and came to the conclusion it was impossible.

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3 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

The 12’ 6” dimension applies from north of Berkhamsted. The notion that the canal is not suitable for wide beams north of Berkhamsted is because reduced dredging dimensions applied north of Berkhamsted; probably due to the lack of usage by wide beam boats. So it’s a bit chicken and egg really.

 

JP

 

I don't really understand that. My 12ft widebeam draws 2'2" which is less than many narrowboats. I've been both of berko on it without any issues. Went through the Tring cutting at 4am to avoid any other boats.

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5 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I don't really understand that. My 12ft widebeam draws 2'2" which is less than many narrowboats. I've been both of berko on it without any issues. Went through the Tring cutting at 4am to avoid any other boats.

Oh, that was you was it Mike!

 

:giggles:

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Just now, blackrose said:

 

I don't really understand that. My 12ft widebeam draws 2'2" which is less than many narrowboats. I've been both of berko on it without any issues. Went through the Tring cutting at 4am to avoid any other boats.

It’s the width of the dredged channel that’s probably more important. It’s not just about one boat either, it’s about having sufficient width at a minimum depth for two to pass.

 

My point was that the issue of suitability of the GU main line for widebeams is at least as much about maintenance as construction since the dimensions of the construction don’t change.

 

I doubt there’s really much difference these days but it seems to be a less emotive subject south of Berkhamsted because of the historical precedent.

 

JP

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1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

It’s the width of the dredged channel that’s probably more important. It’s not just about one boat either, it’s about having sufficient width at a minimum depth for two to pass.

 

My point was that the issue of suitability of the GU main line for widebeams is at least as much about maintenance as construction since the dimensions of the construction don’t change.

 

I doubt there’s really much difference these days but it seems to be a less emotive subject south of Berkhamsted because of the historical precedent.

 

JP

 

I passed plenty of boats north of berko. It wasn't a problem.

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8 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

I passed plenty of boats north of berko. It wasn't a problem.

The discussion was about the reasons for the difference in published maximum craft dimensions which are;-

 

72’ 0” x 14’ 0” x 4’ 0” south of Berkhamsted, and

72’ 0” x 12’ 6” x 3’ 9” north of Berkhamsted.

 

Your boat is apparently 57’ 0” x 12’ 0” x 2’ 2” which may explain your particular experience.

 

JP

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14 hours ago, frangar said:

So what about the “narrow” locks that have moved so most heritage craft and a few modern ones no longer fit...shouldn’t this be dealt with ASAP?? This seems a lot of effort and expense for a couple of boats. 

e.g. South Stratford

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Having spent many happy hours stuck on various bits of the southern stratford i always remind myself how lucky we are to even have it. While in no way a supporter of bad repair, it is not a linear network, and bwb inherited a quickly restored canal  work carried on the cheap and done by volunteers and  prisoners on day release.  Hutchings did a great job, but i remember when bwb took it over from the NT their enthusiasm was muted..

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It is worth remembering that the properly shaped  wide boats built to use the lower Grand Union were  barrel sided and had a seven foot wide base plate to minimise the problems of a restricted channel. From the photographs available they were beautiful boats but they still did not work north of Berko. HughC

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