To survey or not to survey

[Naughty Cal]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

or there is  zero demand

Exactly

No demand. No market.

Much like Lady G and this illusive boat.

[Dyertribe]

32 minutes ago, LadyG said:

or there is  zero demand.

In the case of housing, I assume the  [RICS] valuation relates to the finance which a bank/building society will lend  on.

I find it highly unlikely that there is absolutely no one in your area looking to buy a flat.

There may be no one wanting to buy your flat at the price you are asking but that is a different matter.

A property (or anything else for that matter) is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. That may not be the price at which the seller wants to sell it for.

[MichaelG]

On the subject of boat surveyors, a previous post said that anyone can call themselves a boat surveyor without any formal qualifications. I have just looked at an old survey from a few years ago and the surveyor showed on it his qualification as Master of Science diploma in small craft surveying. Does anyone know what formal qualifications to look out for for a narrowboat surveyor. Clearly experience and personal recommendation goes a long way but what formal qualifications should you be looking for?

[Sea Dog]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And 

 

These two anecdotes seem to directly contradict each other. 

Makes me wonder if there is a major difference between canal boat surveyors who seem to be able to impose T&Cs on their customers that excuse them from all consequences of their errors/oversights, and sea-boat surveyors, who Sea Dog says are legally liable for the accuracy of their survey reports.

Further, canal boat surveyors it is often said here need no formal qualifications. Perhaps sea-boat surveyors have to be members of a professional for their surveys to be accepted by insurers. Perhaps @Sea Dog could expand on this please? 

The subject appears to have moved on so far I'm afraid I'm now off topic Mike!

I'm no expert and really don't know what is going on on the cut - hence my post. In the main, the guys I was involved with (mainly surveyors of yachts, but also power boats and the certification of passenger vessels for the MCA) were all members of the Yacht Designers and Surveyors Association (YDSA) and were in the business based on experience in the field and various training courses (I did one at Plymouth University for example). There's another body, the International Institute of Marine Surveyors (IIMS), which appears to be in the business of selling correspondence courses, certifying it's pupils and acting as their professional body.  I wouldn't like to say how good or bad they are, but there was a thing where the boat's the IIMS guys had surveyed were easily spotted by regularly spaced scrapings for hull moisture readings, whereas YDSA members 'tickets' tended to be where experience suggests and then samples at random. I'm sure you know how these things can be where professional rivalry is involved though, so draw your own conclusions.

I'd guess that there's probably not a world of difference in how their contracts are written, but the disclaimers in a contract aren't always quite as legally binding as one or other of the parties involved would either hope or believe. Perhaps there's more folk who move in circles where their mates are barristers buying seagoing yachts and motor cruisers than buying canal boats?  

[roland elsdon]

Um the market value is the what the market values something on the day you are trying to flog it. You can't be 20% under market value. That's the price yesterday when you should have flogged it. I know my economics degree is from 1979 but...

[Richard10002]

4 hours ago, Dyertribe said:

I find it highly unlikely that there is absolutely no one in your area looking to buy a flat.

There may be no one wanting to buy your flat at the price you are asking but that is a different matter.

A property (or anything else for that matter) is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. That may not be the price at which the seller wants to sell it for.

Exactly.... I dont know what Lady G is asking for her flat, but I can state, without much fear of being wrong, that there will be an enormous market of people who would be willing to buy Lady G's flat for £10, £100, £1000, £10,000, and so on. So, by default, there is a market for her flat and there will be some demand, (massive at a ridiculously low price). At some point the figures reach a point where there are only a few people who might be interested in buying the flat and, at a figure a bit higher, there will be nobody interested in buying the flat. The market value is less than the latter figure, and more than the former figure.

Lady Gs current price is higher than the market value or, by definition, she would have sold it. The fact that she wont sell for less than what she is currently asking suggests that she wont be selling, unless the market rises to meet her price.

Sometimes it's worth taking less than what you would really like for something you are selling, in order to get on with the next phase of your life.

[LadyG]

7 hours ago, Dyertribe said:

I find it highly unlikely that there is absolutely no one in your area looking to buy a flat.

There may be no one wanting to buy your flat at the price you are asking but that is a different matter.

A property (or anything else for that matter) is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. That may not be the price at which the seller wants to sell it for.

I wish. Obviously if i offered it at half the surveyors valuation it would sell, but I have had no genuine interest.  The guide price is well below the valuation, not my valuation, the surveyors valuation, and agreed by the estate agent. An identical flat close by is offered for more and it is in a less desirable location and needs an upgrade. I can't do any more.

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

 

Sometimes it's worth taking less than what you would really like for something you are selling, in order to get on with the next phase of your life.

I know, but the plan is to get a boat and a wad of cash for contingency, I don't want a rustbucket, so the price of a suitable boat all tweaked up and ready to go is to some degree fixed, if the worst comes to the worst I will have to sit and wait for the market to pick up. I have to pay all the selling expenses due to ridiculous Scottish laws, that is pretty much written in stone, and selling costs will increase every three months. Nothing i can do about it. 

[Naughty Cal]

6 hours ago, LadyG said:

I wish. Obviously if i offered it at half the surveyors valuation it would sell, but I have had no genuine interest.  The guide price is well below the valuation, not my valuation, the surveyors valuation, and agreed by the estate agent. An identical flat close by is offered for more and it is in a less desirable location and needs an upgrade. I can't do any more.

Well you can. You can drop the price.

If you have had no interest then it is priced too high.

6 hours ago, LadyG said:

I know, but the plan is to get a boat and a wad of cash for contingency, I don't want a rustbucket, so the price of a suitable boat all tweaked up and ready to go is to some degree fixed, if the worst comes to the worst I will have to sit and wait for the market to pick up. I have to pay all the selling expenses due to ridiculous Scottish laws, that is pretty much written in stone, and selling costs will increase every three months. Nothing i can do about it. 

Drop the price and sell it then.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 hours ago, LadyG said:

I have to pay all the selling expenses due to ridiculous Scottish laws, that is pretty much written in stone, and selling costs will increase every three months. Nothing i can do about it. 

Just as an analogy:

I was selling a NB, it would have cost be £1000+ to sell it via a broker, I offered it at £1000 below market price and it sold and was paid for within 7 days.

I received more than I would had I sold via a broker, the buyer got it cheaper than he would have via the broker Win / Win

It pays to sometime think 'outside the box'

[rowland al]

 

Many years ago I bought a narrow boat from a chap who was a boat safety examiner. I trusted him based on that and decided not to have it surveyed as the purchase price was low and he had just slapped a BSS on it before buying it to sell on to me. 

Big mistake as it turned out. After experiencing many problems it was independently inspected by another BWB inspector who found many faults and pretty much condemned it. On a subsequent survey, the hull was found to be apparently so thin in places, it bent with the hammer test. It cost me £5000 in losses the end. The boat was bought by a mysterious buyer through a broker, probably to hide the evidence after I began to threaten legal action against the seller.

Despite this experience, the last boat I bought had a recent survey and BSC. The owners were a lovely couple who had just bought a similar narrowboat which was a bit bigger for their family. Unlike the seller in my previous story, they didn't have the gift of the gab or were selling it to make a quick profit. The boat has given us years of happiness and a BSC and hull survey carried out much later after buying it, showed no problems. 

So I'd say it depends on how much money you have to spare. How much risk you want to take.  How much you trust the seller/broker and the surveyor who did the test (it's a good idea to find out the real reason the boat was being sold). All combined with some luck. 

 

[Rickent]

When I sold my house three years ago I had to drop the price three times to get any interest and the subsequent sale. It all depends on how badly you want to move on and start your new life. Money is not the be all and end all. We are now in our third year living aboard and don't regret letting our house go cheap at all.

[Bargebuilder]

What a contrast to the market down south.

I was just looking at a small 2 bed terraced property in a small coastal village, too far out for sensible commuting into town, that sold 3 years ago for £170k and has just appeared on the market again for £265k. What's that, a 55% increase in just 3 years, and it will very likely sell since there are very few houses available for sale in that price bracket in the area.

The 'lumpy water' boat market is chronically depressed with some truly incredible deals to be had. I was speaking last week to a broker and he said that sea boat prices had been dropping for about ten years and there is very little sign of improvement. Boats will sell, but no one pays the asking price and some of the offers made are almost insulting, and yet often accepted!

I have done coastal sailing in grp cruisers for decades and on the whole, the average used 26 foot boat with 4-6 berths, galley, separate toilet and a diesel inboard engine etc can be bought for well under £10k, often 6-8k. The overwhelming majority of boats on the canal network are steel narrow boats and might the average value be £30k or more? It also costs far more in marina fees to berth a 60ft boat than a 26ft yacht, and sea boats have no licence to pay for, or boat safety certificate examination every few years. On average, canal boating is the more exclusive hobby, not yacht ownership.

Yacht surveyors will still charge 4-6 hundred pounds for a report on which you cannot rely or gain financial compensation for should things go wrong.

 

 

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

What a contrast to the market down south.

I was just looking at a small 2 bed terraced property in a small coastal village, too far out for sensible commuting into town, that sold 3 years ago for £170k and has just appeared on the market again for £265k. What's that, a 55% increase in just 3 years, and it will very likely sell since there are very few houses available for sale in that price bracket in the area.

The 'lumpy water' boat market is chronically depressed with some truly incredible deals to be had. I was speaking last week to a broker and he said that sea boat prices had been dropping for about ten years and there is very little sign of improvement. Boats will sell, but no one pays the asking price and some of the offers made are almost insulting, and yet often accepted!

I have done coastal sailing in grp cruisers for decades and on the whole, the average used 26 foot boat with 4-6 berths, galley, separate toilet and a diesel inboard engine etc can be bought for well under £10k, often 6-8k. The overwhelming majority of boats on the canal network are steel narrow boats and might the average value be £30k or more? It also costs far more in marina fees to berth a 60ft boat than a 26ft yacht, and sea boats have no licence to pay for, or boat safety certificate examination every few years. On average, canal boating is the more exclusive hobby, not yacht ownership.

Yacht surveyors will still charge 4-6 hundred pounds for a report on which you cannot rely or gain financial compensation for should things go wrong.

 

 

Not sure what lumpy water boat market you are looking at but it sure ain't the same one as we are!

Brokers are crying out for boats to sell as the good ones sell within days of coming onto the market. Often to buyers over seas with the current favourable exchange rates.

Of course there will always be the overpriced crap that doesn't sell. Much the same in any market be it boats or houses.

[Bargebuilder]

You are right in as much there are some boat classifications such as motor sailors that always get snapped up for above the average yacht price, but for your run-of-the-mill cruising yacht of reasonable vintage, there are some real bargains to be had: Just look for yourself on Apolloduck.

 

 

[Mike Hurley]

15 hours ago, LadyG said:

if the worst comes to the worst I will have to sit and wait for the market to pick up.

It wont, it is on its way down.

[Momac]

5 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Not sure what lumpy water boat market you are looking at but it sure ain't the same one as we are!

Brokers are crying out for boats to sell as the good ones sell within days of coming onto the market. Often to buyers over seas with the current favourable exchange rates.

Of course there will always be the overpriced crap that doesn't sell. Much the same in any market be it boats or houses.

Bargebuilder may well be talking about lumpy water rag and stick boats, of which I know little.

I agree with Naughty Cal  the lumpy water motorboat market  seems quite fast moving although prices have to be right  . There are a few that are asking very optimistic prices or are less desirable (such as underpowered models ) and these are hanging around while more keenly priced models sell fast .

The prices for some motorboats seem to be lower than they were 10years ago, after taking a hit in the recession,  while others have bounced back and prices have reverted. Bear in mind , however that after 10years , even with low inflation, a static price is in fact a depreciated price.

 The marina here is as full  as it ever has been and the broker is a busy man.  A huge difference to a few years ago.

 Buoyant sales of used  motorboats may be put down to a number of factors such as

• The value of the pound makes  UK boats attractive to people in other European countries.

•  The lack of boats built in the recession leaves a large gap in availability used boats under 10 years old  pressing people to look at older boats .

• Boat builders are building to order leading to waiting lists up to a year and people start to look at used boats.

• Newer boats can have issues while an older boat will have had its issues sorted

• Older boats (of which there are many in our area ) have simpler engine technology

[LadyG]

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just as an analogy:

I was selling a NB, it would have cost be £1000+ to sell it via a broker, I offered it at £1000 below market price and it sold and was paid for within 7 days.

I received more than I would had I sold via a broker, the buyer got it cheaper than he would have via the broker Win / Win

It pays to sometime think 'outside the box'

Iv'e been thinking out the box for six months, but the laws in Scotland are fixed in stone, I have to follow the Laws. I don't want, its a Cartel.

[ditchcrawler]

20 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Iv'e been thinking out the box for six months, but the laws in Scotland are fixed in stone, I have to follow the Laws. I don't want, its a Cartel.

Put it up for auction

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Iv'e been thinking out the box for six months, but the laws in Scotland are fixed in stone, I have to follow the Laws. I don't want, its a Cartel.

 

24 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Iv'e been thinking out the box for six months, but the laws in Scotland are fixed in stone, I have to follow the Laws. I don't want, its a Cartel.

Your selling costs (according to yourself) are increasing every 3 months - lets just give an imaginary increase of £2000 per 3 months

If you sell your house in 12 months, at your asking price your costs will have risen by £8000.

Thinking outside the box :

Sell it now at £5000 less than your asking price, its sold & gone, you can now buy your dream boat and you are £3k better off than if you had waited 12 months and sold it at your asking price.

(Alan - Post Grad Marketing, Dip M, and Member of the Chartered Institute of Marketing)

Definition of Marketing ; "matching your product offering with customers expectations"

Edited November 6, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[LadyG]

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Your selling costs (according to yourself) are increasing every 3 months - lets just give an imaginary increase of £2000 per 3 months

If you sell your house in 12 months, at your asking price your costs will have risen by £8000.

Thinking outside the box :

Sell it now at £5000 less than your asking price, its sold & gone, you can now buy your dream boat and you are £3k better off than if you had waited 12 months and sold it at your asking price.

(Alan - Post Grad Marketing, Dip M, and Member of the Chartered Institute of Marketing)

Definition of Marketing ; "matching your product offering with customers expectations"

I can do the sums, the price is already well below valuation. I will not give it away. There has been no interest even when price is not mentioned. Costs are not rising at £2k pa

jo -- Pg Dip Int Mkting, BA, SDDH .

The price is just as likely to rise as to fall,  given that it is the lowest it has been for six years. Conversation closed.

 

40 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Put it up for auction

Don't be ridicullous, I am not desperate,  the house is not derelict.

Edited November 6, 2017 by LadyG

[Naughty Cal]

13 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I can do the sums, the price is already well below valuation. I will not give it away. There has been no interest even when price is not mentioned. Costs are not rising at £2k pa

jo -- Pg Dip Int Mkting, BA, SDDH .

The price is just as likely to rise as to fall,  given that it is the lowest it has been for six years. Conversation closed.

 

Don't be ridicullous, I am not desperate,  the house is not derelict.

The price clearly isn't low enough or it would have sold or at least had some interest.

You may well value it at more. The market doesn't or you would have sold by now. 

If you really want to sell up and get a boat cut your price and sell the property because boat prices are rising and you will have to lower your asking price to sell. So the longer you wait, the more the move on is going to cost. 

[Richard10002]

10 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I can do the sums, the price is already well below valuation. I will not give it away. There has been no interest even when price is not mentioned. Costs are not rising at £2k pa

jo -- Pg Dip Int Mkting, BA, SDDH .

The price is just as likely to rise as to fall,  given that it is the lowest it has been for six years. Conversation closed.

 

Don't be ridicullous, I am not desperate,  the house is not derelict.

Where in Scotland is your flat? The UK property market has been on the up since mid 2013, and has perhaps started to show signs of reaching a plateau. Scotland, in general, seems to have been in line with this, so you must be in a very undesirable location to be at the lowest price in 6 years.

On “valuation”, it is merely an opinion. In fact, if it is a valuation by an agent, ( or whatever you have up there), it’s not really a valuation, more a pitch to get your business.

What are the costs rising by if it isn’t £2000 a year?

The fact is that the valuation that you received was/is wrong, or you would have sold.

If you are resigned to your property not being worth enough to fund your boat purchase, it’s a shame. 

[Bargebuilder]

At lease there is a chance that bricks and mortar will appreciate in value; a very good one in the South.

Once you sink everything into a boat, just sit back and watch your hard earned money vanish through depreciation and ongoing costs.

[Sea Dog]

8 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Not sure what lumpy water boat market you are looking at but it sure ain't the same one as we are!

 

I don't recognise it either. My mates pay broadly the same for (typically) 30' yachts/power boats in popular south coast marinas as I do for my 57' Narrowboat in the Midlands.  I've already given my alternative  view/experience related to lumpy water surveys.