Generator - petrol / lpg / diesel?

[NB Lola]

That is the easy bit of course.

 

How long does it take you to re-charge your batteries to 100%,? And how are you measuring 100%?

 

In my experience it takes around eight hours to get from 60% to 100% as measured by a stable tail current. Totally impractical to do daily and hardly even weekly, but essential if one is not to wreck the batteries in a month or three.

 

And then there is equalising, which needs to be done immediately after getting the batteries to fully charged, and takes a further three hours. That's 11 hours of genny time in one day. (And as an aside, I've yet to see an off the shelf engine alternator - marine or not - capable of running an equalisation cycle without some custom modifications)

 

Rather than look after batteries correctly in the three winter months when solar doesn't work, I'm arriving at the view that it is better to buy a new set of cheap batteries each Spring which the solar will keep fully charged all summer, then let them get trashed over winter to save all the hours and hours of charging necessary to treat them properly. Then replace them again next Spring.

 

Thats why I am in a marina and constantly hooked up when not on the cut (apart from still having a full time job!). Your point about battery management is well made in other posts. My cruising style gets 3 years out of our three leisure batteries which at £60 a pop from a motor factors (with business discount) plus £6 for each returned is good enough for me. Your previous (current) dialogue on equalising taught me much. Ta

[blackrose]

That is the easy bit of course.

 

How long does it take you to re-charge your batteries to 100%,? And how are you measuring 100%?

 

In my experience it takes around eight hours to get from 60% to 100% as measured by a stable tail current. Totally impractical to do daily and hardly even weekly, but essential if one is not to wreck the batteries in a month or three.

 

And then there is equalising, which needs to be done immediately after getting the batteries to fully charged, and takes a further three hours. That's 11 hours of genny time in one day. (And as an aside, I've yet to see an off the shelf engine alternator - marine or not - capable of running an equalisation cycle without some custom modifications)

 

Rather than look after batteries correctly in the three winter months when solar doesn't work, I'm arriving at the view that it is better to buy a new set of cheap batteries each Spring which the solar will keep fully charged all summer, then let them get trashed over winter to save all the hours and hours of charging necessary to treat them properly. Then replace them again next Spring.

So on one hand you're telling me about all the things I should be doing to charge my batteries correctly, then on the other saying that you don't bother? Ok.

 

To answer your questions, I get my batteries to 100% by taking them through a few cycles of the battery charger - switching it off and back on, and that's measured with a SG and amps going in in a shunt type battery monitor. Whether that's a true 100% I don't know and frankly don't care. I'm not a battery charging extremist. My last set of batteries lasted 10 years which is good enough for me.

Edited January 15, 2017 by blackrose

[cereal tiller]

You don't need a separate alternator controller or battery management system. You just need a alternator that's not 15 years old where an external alternator would have helped and one that is designed to do the job. So no cheaping out on a standard car alternator as these are not designed to run at full power for long periods of time. You need a Marine Alternator, these are designed for running for long periods.

The reason that 'Car Alternators' are short lived is that they get too hot

 

Have modded my Generator and Engine Alternators so that they cannot exceed 75 degrees C,when that Temp. is reached they Rest for 30 seconds and then recommence charging

 

Vehicle Alternator £60 ,Controller £12

 

The Temp. Controller simply switches the Field current on and off

 

CT

Edited January 15, 2017 by cereal tiller

[ditchcrawler]

The reason that 'Car Alternators' are short lived is that they get too hot

 

Have modded my Generator and Engine Alternators so that they cannot exceed 75 degrees C,when that Temp. is reached they Rest for 30 seconds and then recommence charging

 

Vehicle Alternator £60 ,Controller £12

 

CT

How have you made them rest?

[mrsmelly]

Thats why I am in a marina and constantly hooked up when not on the cut (apart from still having a full time job!). Your point about battery management is well made in other posts. My cruising style gets 3 years out of our three leisure batteries which at £60 a pop from a motor factors (with business discount) plus £6 for each returned is good enough for me. Your previous (current) dialogue on equalising taught me much. Ta

 

Battery threads are always funny I find. My experience is for me they last 2/3 years if I buy cheap ones. The ones I have on now where 74 pounds each sealed type so not ever any maintenance. I liveaboard full time off grid and these have been on exactly 2 years today. I run the engine with its standard 80 amp alternators approx 2/3 hours per day until charge drops down to about 5 amps then switch off, this is usual each evening switching off at 8pm. These batteries are still accepting and holding a charge tho not quite as good as when new I am more than happy again with this regime and expect to replace them within the next 6/12 months so its a cheap hassle free method that works for me.

[Robbo]

The reason that 'Car Alternators' are short lived is that they get too hot

 

Have modded my Generator and Engine Alternators so that they cannot exceed 75 degrees C,when that Temp. is reached they Rest for 30 seconds and then recommence charging

 

Vehicle Alternator £60 ,Controller £12

 

CT

That's right they get hot when ran for long periods of time when providing the amps so it makes sense to get one that's built for the job. For something you will be using everyday and relying on it makes sense to use a quality product as you get more value for money in the long term. If it's a secondary system and has occasional use then of course it wouldn't be worthwhile.

[cereal tiller]

How have you made them rest?

The Temp. Controller switches the Field on and off

 

 

CT

[Richard10002]

So on one hand you're telling me about all the things I should be doing to charge my batteries correctly, then on the other saying that you don't bother? Ok.

To answer your questions, I get my batteries to 100% by taking then through a few cycles of the battery charger - switching it off and back on, and that's measured with a SG and amps going in in a shunt type battery monitor. Whether that's a true 100% I don't know and frankly don't care. I'm not a battery charging extremist. My last set of batteries lasted 10 years which is good enough for me.

You may not be an enthusiast but, whatever you are doing would seem to be the holy grail of battery management. From what you say, you don't go below 50% State of Charge, then you charge until SG says 100% AND the tail current is low - and that's it?

 

I've tried exactly that with 2 sets of batteries, (cheap set in 2011, Varta Hobby in 2015). Both down to less than 50% capacity within about 18 months. In May I'll have had a set of 4 Trojan T105 for 2 years, and I'm thinking I've probably trashed these as well - more about that in another thread when I get a Round Tuit.

 

So it seems that some people get 7 to 10 years out of batteries, and others get 2 years, and there may be no rhyme nor reason why

[mrsmelly]

You may not be an enthusiast but, whatever you are doing would seem to be the holy grail of battery management. From what you say, you don't go below 50% State of Charge, then you charge until SG says 100% AND the tail current is low - and that's it?

 

I've tried exactly that with 2 sets of batteries, (cheap set in 2011, Varta Hobby in 2015). Both down to less than 50% capacity within about 18 months. In May I'll have had a set of 4 Trojan T105 for 2 years, and I'm thinking I've probably trashed these as well - more about that in another thread when I get a Round Tuit.

 

So it seems that some people get 7 to 10 years out of batteries, and others get 2 years, and there may be no rhyme nor reason why

 

I think your post sums it all up but have no idea why this is the case. I buy sealed so I never look at them again and get 2/3 years without problems on a very basic charging with no ( Bulk ( ( Absortion ) charging regime ever why is this I wonder Is it down to how low peeps take them or what? Edit to add am I getting reduced capacity but not using the full capacity so dont realy notice it?

Edited January 15, 2017 by mrsmelly

[MtB]

So on one hand you're telling me about all the things I should be doing to charge my batteries correctly, then on the other saying that you don't bother? Ok.

 

 

 

No, I'm explaining to interested readers the two different skools of thought when it comes to battery management.

 

.

 

To answer your questions, I get my batteries to 100% by taking then through a few cycles of the battery charger - switching it off and back on, and that's measured with a SG and amps going in in a shunt type battery monitor. Whether that's a true 100% I don't know and frankly don't care. I'm not a battery charging extremist. My last set of batteries lasted 10 years which is good enough for me.

 

 

You have conveniently avoided the main question I asked. How long does it take you to get from just over 50% to 100% doing this, please?

 

I'm curious because as Richard says, you seem to have achieved the holy grail of battery management. 10 years of life without ever equalising. You are the only person on this board who has done this so far and I'd like to be the second, hence my questions!

[WotEver]

So it seems that some people get 7 to 10 years out of batteries, and others get 2 years, and there may be no rhyme nor reason why

There is always a reason.

 

Only dropping to a low DoD and then immediately fully recharging will be a very large part of it.

[MtB]

Oh and another question... are you using your generator for this or are you on a shoreline?

[cereal tiller]

 

 

No, I'm explaining to interested readers the two different skools of thought when it comes to battery management.

 

.

 

 

 

You have conveniently avoided the main question I asked. How long does it take you to get from just over 50% to 100% doing this, please?

 

I'm curious because as Richard says, you seem to have achieved the holy grail of battery management. 10 years of life without ever equalising. You are the only person on this board who has done this so far and I'd like to be the second, hence my questions!

What proportion of the ten years was away from shoreline power?

 

CT

[MtB]

There is always a reason.

 

Only dropping to a low DoD and then immediately fully recharging will be a very large part of it.

 

 

I'm beginning to think Mike Blackrose is actually on a shoreline rather than off grid.

[dmr]

This forum is mostly pro-generator (and pro morso stoves and cassette bogs but that's another story) I think its worth reading what that Goatman is saying. A modern boat engine should be good for a minimum of 10,000 hours, so ignoring cruising for now, and running for two hours per day to charge batteries, that gives over ten years of engine life. Ideally get enough batteries so that you only charge every other day and thats 20 years. A longer run is needed every week or two but than can be combined with a bit of boating.

 

If you have a TravelPower then you can run the washing machine at the same which does the washing and puts a nice bit of load on the engine. If you are really lucky and have an engine room and back cabin then the engine run heats the back of the boat ready for bed. And plenty of hot water too.

 

When the engine is worn out its actually not the end of the world to replace it, especially a like for like replacement. You could even buy the bare engine and swap the marinisation bits over, I have seen switched on crusty boaters doing engine swaps at the side of the canal with a few mates.

 

A boat has an engine, why get another?

This logic might not apply if you have a proper vintage engine cus you can't just go and get a new one..

 

..............Dave

[mrsmelly]

This forum is mostly pro-generator (and pro morso stoves and cassette bogs but that's another story) I think its worth reading what that Goatman is saying. A modern boat engine should be good for a minimum of 10,000 hours, so ignoring cruising for now, and running for two hours per day to charge batteries, that gives over ten years of engine life. Ideally get enough batteries so that you only charge every other day and thats 20 years. A longer run is needed every week or two but than can be combined with a bit of boating.

 

If you have a TravelPower then you can run the washing machine at the same which does the washing and puts a nice bit of load on the engine. If you are really lucky and have an engine room and back cabin then the engine run heats the back of the boat ready for bed. And plenty of hot water too.

 

When the engine is worn out its actually not the end of the world to replace it, especially a like for like replacement. You could even buy the bare engine and swap the marinisation bits over, I have seen switched on crusty boaters doing engine swaps at the side of the canal with a few mates.

 

A boat has an engine, why get another?

This logic might not apply if you have a proper vintage engine cus you can't just go and get a new one..

 

..............Dave

 

Greenie for this one.

[chubby]

Yes . Agreed by me too . Its essentially what i was driving at earlier . It seems to make more sense :

 

Fuel is easier to get

Fuel is cheaper to buy

It will need servicing anyway , not a big deal

It's unlikely to get nicked !

Its safer - there are zero BSS issues

It makes hot water & you can do laundry & hoovering at the same time etc

It can combined with solar chraging to provide a year round solutuon .

 

There may be upgrades to be made & costs involved but that's unavoidable whichever way u look to improve your power provisions

 

cheers

[MtB]

This forum is mostly pro-generator (and pro morso stoves and cassette bogs but that's another story) I think its worth reading what that Goatman is saying. A modern boat engine should be good for a minimum of 10,000 hours, so ignoring cruising for now, and running for two hours per day to charge batteries, that gives over ten years of engine life. Ideally get enough batteries so that you only charge every other day and thats 20 years. A longer run is needed every week or two but than can be combined with a bit of boating.

 

If you have a TravelPower then you can run the washing machine at the same which does the washing and puts a nice bit of load on the engine. If you are really lucky and have an engine room and back cabin then the engine run heats the back of the boat ready for bed. And plenty of hot water too.

 

When the engine is worn out its actually not the end of the world to replace it, especially a like for like replacement. You could even buy the bare engine and swap the marinisation bits over, I have seen switched on crusty boaters doing engine swaps at the side of the canal with a few mates.

 

A boat has an engine, why get another?

This logic might not apply if you have a proper vintage engine cus you can't just go and get a new one..

 

..............Dave

 

 

Yes agree with all of that.

 

The one thing not mentioned is the need to equalise every few weeks. I know you do it with a custom modified Adverc but yer average liveaboard boater with Trojans would need some sort of device 'off the shelf' to persuade an engine alternator to punch out 16V for three or four hours in order to avoid using a genny for the task.

 

The Sterling Universal Advanced Digital Alternator Regulator Pro Reg D (PDAR) seems to claim to do it, but there are still a few weasel words in there, meaning some study of the manual is required.

[WotEver]

If you're going to be using your main engine for charging then I think the best combination would be a TP and decent mains charger. The TP can power your hungry appliances without putting any strain on the batteries and the charger can look after equalisation.

[MtB]

If you're going to be using your main engine for charging then I think the best combination would be a TP and decent mains charger. The TP can power your hungry appliances without putting any strain on the batteries and the charger can look after equalisation.

 

 

It seems a little clumsy though, to burn diesel to run the alternator to produce unregulated AC to be stepped up to regulated 240Vac to be rectified and stepped back down to 16Vdc for equalising, dunnit!

Other ways are just as clumsy though.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

It seems a little clumsy though, to burn diesel to run the alternator to produce unregulated AC to be stepped up to regulated 240Vac to be rectified and stepped back down to 16Vdc for equalising, dunnit!

Other ways are just as clumsy though.

 

You could also run the engine to do what boaters 'do' (go boating) and take the battery charging as a secondary benefit.

 

If you are never going to move, then you don't need a 'main engine' just get a generator installed in the 'engine hole'.

[MtB]

 

You could also run the engine to do what boaters 'do' (go boating) and take the battery charging as a secondary benefit.

 

If you are never going to move, then you don't need a 'main engine' just get a generator installed in the 'engine hole'.

 

 

It was a fascetious observation Alan.

 

And with my winter mooring I won't be moving for about a month. Should I really remove the Kevin and fit a generator?!

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

It was a fascetious observation Alan.

 

And with my winter mooring I won't be moving for about a month. Should I really remove the Kevin and fit a generator?!

 

Apologies - I was not aiming the comment at YOU, as in MtB, but a 'general' you (as in 'anyone')

[MtB]

 

Apologies - I was not aiming the comment at YOU, as in MtB, but a 'general' you (as in 'anyone')

 

 

Oh I see!! Let you off then

[blackrose]

You have conveniently avoided the main question I asked. How long does it take you to get from just over 50% to 100% doing this, please?

 

I'm curious because as Richard says, you seem to have achieved the holy grail of battery management. 10 years of life without ever equalising. You are the only person on this board who has done this so far and I'd like to be the second, hence my questions!

I haven't "conveniently avoided" anything Mike. You asked: "How long does it take you to re-charge your batteries to 100%,? And how are you measuring 100%?"

 

Those were your main questions which I answered. Re-read your post. You didn't ask me about charging from 50%.

 

From 50% and it's about 5 hours on my last set of batteries (405ah). I haven't let the new (450ah) set drop to 50% yet so I don't know. Anyway the maximum voltage any of my batteries have ever been subjected to is 14.8v. I don't have the facility to charge them at higher voltages.

Edited January 15, 2017 by blackrose