A very Scary passage!

[johnmck]

Yesterday, we ascended Foxton locks, a flight we are very familiar with. Boat wise, it was fairly quiet. After waiting for four to descend, it was our turn as the first of two ascending.

 

All went well initially. Me on the tiller and Ali working the locks. Moving up into an upper chamber,we had a problem. The gates would not shut, with something jamming under them, very possibility a fender. After several unsuccessful attempts of trying to blow the offending object off the cill, Ali located a Velocky. Now our expectation was he would fetch a Keb and try to remove the object, but he knew better.

 

Without any consultation he instructed his colleague to open the paddles on the lower gates, with me in the upper chamber. And I mean fully open! Suddenly, the water was pouring out and it took full power to prevent the boat at the very least being drawn over the cill. Ali, realising what was happening, instructed him to close the paddles, Now! You do not argue with Ali, believe me...

 

What concerned me was the total lack of communication. It could have all gone horribly wrong. His attitude was that he was the "Expert". Ali pointed out it was our boat in the lock, not his.

 

Had he said that he was going to slowly release the water whilst I was in the upper chamber, in order to expose and then remove the offending item, fine. But he said nothing other than to instruct his colleague to open the paddles.

 

We never did find out what the obstruction was. It cleared whilst I was madly trying not to be drawn back over the cill. But it was a sobering experience.

 

Be careful out there...

[nicknorman]

Email the event to CRT. If they don't know this sort of thing is happening, they can't be expected to do anything to address it.

[biggles47]

Not good!

 

Best report this incident formally to the C&RT. The more people who report incidents like this, the more chance they will listen and train them properly.

[MtB]

Email the event to CRT. If they don't know this sort of thing is happening, they can't be expected to do anything to address it.

 

 

I'm not convinced an ordinary email will elicit more than some patronising platitudes dashed off by a 'Customer Services' representative. If that.

 

It needs raising higher up the food chain. Not sure how to do this. Even emails to Mr Parry are routinely ignored if we are to believe some of the (ex?)contributors on here.

[magnetman]

Sounds bad. Definitely needs reporting

 

The only valid way to remove an obstruction is to use a long shaft and stab it with the boat hook end (if you can find one with a sharp point) or as you said a keb. Any other way of moving it is bad practice really as not only is it dangerous for the boat and the infrastructure it also means that the item is still in the water and could cause more problems.

 

Sounds like you encountered a tw@

 

I wonder if any of the volunteer lock keepers actually know what a keb is and if so where it could be located.

 

I know it would need a very long handle if it were used from the lockside.

Edited September 25, 2016 by magnetman

[alan_fincher]

Fill out one of the proper incident report from the CRT site and submit as it instructs.

 

I would also send a copy with covering letter to Vicky Martin (South East Waterways manager) and Tony Stammers (CRT head of health and safety).

 

Cath and I had a meeting with both where we were attempting to address exactly this kind of issue, and there was no ambiguity from the outcome of that meeting. The boater is firmly in charge, and the volunteer lock keeper is only there to guide and (if you wish) to assist with your agreement. They should never do anything without agreeing it with you, and certainly not put you or your boat in any danger.

 

To quote from above blog post, this was an exact wording agreed with CRT at and after that meeting......

 

We have been assured by CRT that whenever a CRT volunteer or employee deviates from standard procedure, then that is treated very seriously, and they will be held to account, and appropriate action is taken. CRT has reiterated to all VLKs that the boater is in charge and has overall responsibility at all times, and that they should ask the boater before offering assistance.

 

 

If the message has not got through, it needs to not only be formally reported, but those who have committed to trying to improve training need to know about it, IMO.

[MtB]

That sounds a FAR more appropriate course of action suggested by Alan than 'sending an email'.

 

Greenied.

[dogless]

Fill out one of the proper incident report from the CRT site and submit as it instructs.

 

I would also send a copy with covering letter to Vicky Martin (South East Waterways manager) and Tony Stammers (CRT head of health and safety).

 

Cath and I had a meeting with both where we were attempting to address exactly this kind of issue, and there was no ambiguity from the outcome of that meeting. The boater is firmly in charge, and the volunteer lock keeper is only there to guide and (if you wish) to assist with your agreement. They should never do anything without agreeing it with you, and certainly not put you or your boat in any danger.

 

To quote from above blog post, this was an exact wording agreed with CRT at and after that meeting......

 

 

 

If the message has not got through, it needs to not only be formally reported, but those who have committed to trying to improve training need to know about it, IMO.

Excellent advice and greenied.

 

Whilst it is clear there is no malice in the actions described, it is apparent that volunteers on these rare occasions are 'flying by the seat of their pants'. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and sometimes the occasional volunteer's lack of genuine boating experience can draw them towards over confidence.

 

I remain a supporter of volunteers, but to avoid the system falling into disrepute, it is important in my view, that you follow the above advice.

 

It must have been quite scary, but remember, nothing bad actually happened.

 

Rog

[GUMPY]

Three or so weeks ago there was a bit of rope with a caribena on it that looked like a fender hanger trapped under one of the OS top gates it was reported at the time to the volockie but no one seemed to care, the flight was busy.

I guess there must have been a fender on the other end........

[Tuscan]

Also copy your report as Alan recommends to Ed Moss think he's still the national volunteering manager

[MoominPapa]

Whilst I'm fully in agreement that you should have been briefed on this before it happened, and had a veto, I'm struggling to understand why it was quite so scary for you on the boat.

 

As I understand it, your boat was in the higher of two locks, with the water level in that lock at the lower mark. The gates between the locks were open and the paddle in the lower lock was raised to empty it. Now the water level will have been dropping about half as fast as when a lock normally starts emptying since the flow rate through the paddle will have been normal but the surface area twice normal. Against that, the flow under and around the boat will have been higher since there was a much smaller (and reducing) gap between the bottom of the boat and the base of the lock. It's difficult to see a priori that there would be much of a problem keeping the boat within the upper lock.

 

I'd suggest that the real hazard here was to anyone close to the balance beams of the middle gates, which could have been caught be the water flow and slammed shut without warning. I've seen the open bottom gates on a broad lock closed whilst one top paddle was open, and it was fairly undramatic, as long as the operators knew the score, but around Foxton there are plenty of people who might be in the arc of a balance beam and not expect it to move without warning.

 

MP.

[rusty69]

Whilst I'm fully in agreement that you should have been briefed on this before it happened, and had a veto, I'm struggling to understand why it was quite so scary for you on the boat.

 

As I understand it, your boat was in the higher of two locks, with the water level in that lock at the lower mark. The gates between the locks were open and the paddle in the lower lock was raised to empty it. Now the water level will have been dropping about half as fast as when a lock normally starts emptying since the flow rate through the paddle will have been normal but the surface area twice normal. Against that, the flow under and around the boat will have been higher since there was a much smaller (and reducing) gap between the bottom of the boat and the base of the lock. It's difficult to see a priori that there would be much of a problem keeping the boat within the upper lock.

 

I'd suggest that the real hazard here was to anyone close to the balance beams of the middle gates, which could have been caught be the water flow and slammed shut without warning. I've seen the open bottom gates on a broad lock closed whilst one top paddle was open, and it was fairly undramatic, as long as the operators knew the score, but around Foxton there are plenty of people who might be in the arc of a balance beam and not expect it to move without warning.

 

MP.

"Suddenly, the water was pouring out and it took full power to prevent the boat at the very least being drawn over the cill. "

 

 

Sounds pretty scary to me!

[MoominPapa]

"Suddenly, the water was pouring out and it took full power to prevent the boat at the very least being drawn over the cill. "

 

 

Sounds pretty scary to me!

 

No doubt, but when you're descending these locks and the paddle is opened, it's not scary and it doesn't take full power to avoid being slammed into the lower gate, so what's different here?

 

MP.

[UseleSS Enterprise]

HEADLINE

VOLUNTEER QUICKLY SOLVES PROBLEM BOATER ASKED THEM TO DEAL WITH

Sub-Heading

Boater was taken by surprise at the speed of action and got embarrassed.

[rusty69]

 

No doubt, but when you're descending these locks and the paddle is opened, it's not scary and it doesn't take full power to avoid being slammed into the lower gate, so what's different here?

 

MP.

I guess the difference is that no two boats/engines are identical.

 

Certainly when I went through Foxton locks, I encountered no problems and had a very good lock keeper,who communicated and operated the locks very well. Clearly this is not always the case.

[MoominPapa]

I guess the difference is that no two boats/engines are identical.

 

Certainly when I went through Foxton locks, I encountered no problems and had a very good lock keeper,who communicated and operated the locks very well. Clearly this is not always the case.

Same here, but getting very, very anecdotal, I have talked to a single hander moored at the bottom with a bent rudder from a cilling which he blamed on lockies going too fast.

 

MP.

[AliG]

No doubt, but when you're descending these locks and the paddle is opened, it's not scary and it doesn't take full power to avoid being slammed into the lower gate, so what's different here?

 

MP.

But we weren't decending we were ascending!

Fill out one of the proper incident report from the CRT site and submit as it instructs.

 

I would also send a copy with covering letter to Vicky Martin (South East Waterways manager) and Tony Stammers (CRT head of health and safety).

 

Cath and I had a meeting with both where we were attempting to address exactly this kind of issue, and there was no ambiguity from the outcome of that meeting. The boater is firmly in charge, and the volunteer lock keeper is only there to guide and (if you wish) to assist with your agreement. They should never do anything without agreeing it with you, and certainly not put you or your boat in any danger.

 

To quote from above blog post, this was an exact wording agreed with CRT at and after that meeting......

 

 

 

If the message has not got through, it needs to not only be formally reported, but those who have committed to trying to improve training need to know about it, IMO.

 

Thanks Alan we will take your advice.

[MoominPapa]

But we weren't decending we were ascending!

 

 

But from your description, the problem was caused when the lock you were in was being emptied, not when it was being filled. Emptying a lock containing a boat is normal when descending. If I've misunderstood the sequence of events please could you make it clear. If nothing else the knowledge of what happens in this unusual situation is valuable to boaters reading this.

 

MP.

Edited September 25, 2016 by MoominPapa

[nicknorman]

 

But from your description, the problem was caused when the lock you were in was being emptied, not when it was being filled. Emptying a lock containing a boat is normal when descending. If I've misunderstood the sequence of events please could you make it clear. If nothing else the knowledge of what happens in this unusual situation is valuable to boaters reading this.

 

MP.

 

Surely the difference was that the water level was not going down to its normal level - the lock was already at the "empty" level in order for the boat to drive into it from below. What the volockie was doing was emptying the lock below its normal "empty" level with the intention of fully draining all the water out of it. One can imagine that as the bottom of the boat is approaching the bottom of the lock, it is difficult for any water around the bow area to get out beside or below the boat, and thus the "flushing" effect could well be much more severe than it would normally be just emptying a lock. Exacerbated by the fact that the boat was the wrong way in the lock for draining - the deepest part of the boat nearest the water exit point, so that creates a bit of a blockage that makes it harder for the larger volume of water under the front of the boat to escape.

Edited September 25, 2016 by nicknorman

[Rob-M]

I assumed from reading the OP that they had moved forward from one lock in to the next, the gates would then not close so the bottom paddles were drawn emptying the lock they had exited from. The surge of water then pulled the boat backwards with the potential of the boat being partially across the cill of the open gates with no water left under the stern end and therefore a risk of damage to the boat occurring.

[magnetman]

I assumed from reading the OP that they had moved forward from one lock in to the next, the gates would then not close so the bottom paddles were drawn emptying the lock they had exited from. The surge of water then pulled the boat backwards with the potential of the boat being partially across the cill of the open gates with no water left under the stern end and therefore a risk of damage to the boat occurring.

That's what I thought as well and its a staircase which means that a lock chamber can be almost completely drained which is not normally possible.

[MoominPapa]

 

Surely the difference was that the water level was not going down to its normal level - the lock was already at the "empty" level in order for the boat to drive into it from below. What the volockie was doing was emptying the lock below its normal "empty" level with the intention of fully draining all the water out of it. One can imagine that as the bottom of the boat is approaching the bottom of the lock, it is difficult for any water around the bow area to get out beside or below the boat, and thus the "flushing" effect could well be much more severe than it would normally be just emptying a lock. Exacerbated by the fact that the boat was the wrong way in the lock for draining - the deepest part of the boat nearest the water exit point, so that creates a bit of a blockage that makes it harder for the larger volume of water under the front of the boat to escape.

 

That's my understanding of the situation too, and I can see it's quite possible that the effect of emptying an already empty lock could be greater than emptying a full one. I'm looking for clarification because the original post was couched in terms of "the volockies did something we weren't expecting" and not "the volockies did something which had unexpected results".

 

"Dropping a boat onto the floor of an empty staircase lock causes it to surge towards the open gates." and "Volockies at Foxton are liable to do unexpected things without warning" are both useful bits of knowledge about hazards which may be encountered, but the lessons to be learned are rather different, depending if one, the other, or both are true.

 

MP.

[Canalwatcher]

Perhaps the Vlocky, having instructed his colleague to open the bottom gate paddles, then himself opened the top paddles to flush water through (thinking he would flush the obstruction) so causing the dangerous flow?

 

Or was the middle gate which had jammed only only partially open so a head of water built up causing an increasingly fast flow through the narrowed gap?

 

All very scary!

 

Mick

Edited September 25, 2016 by zodiak

[magnetman]

I don't know about other people's attitude to having their boat grounded in a lock chamber but I was always very wary of this when I had a narrow boat because it had a lowered skeg to accommodate a larger prop than the hull was designed for. If it had been grounded on a solid surface like the bottom of a lock it could easily have resulted in the skeg being bent which could be a problem.

 

I may be misreading the op but there did seem to be a risk of grounding if the scene was taking place inside a staircase lock.

 

I would definitely not want someone to deliberately ground my boat on a hard surface without telling me first and gaining permission !!

Edited September 25, 2016 by magnetman

[MoominPapa]

Perhaps the Vlocky, having instructed his colleague to open the bottom gate paddles, then himself opened the top paddles to flush water through (thinking he would flush the obstruction) so causing the dangerous flow?

 

Or perhaps the paddle which had emptied the top lock into the side-pond was still open, so that the attempt to empty the lock was in practise an attempt to empty the lock and side-pond, and as the level lowered in the lock, a strong flow into the lock from the side-pond occurred. That would be an easy mistake to make, but the effect perhaps more predictable than a surge caused by water exiting the lock through a small gap between the boat in base of the lock.

 

MP.