carbon monoxide alarm/smoke alarm

[MtB]

Any alarm, even one that occasionally activates wrongly (provided it also activates when necessary) is better than no alarm. People have died due to having no alarm onboard.

 

I believe this is Max Welly's point, and is certainly mine. Perhaps the boat safety scheme should take a similar view if truly concerned with safety.

 

Rog

 

 

Equally, an alarm that doesn't work due to being used wrongly engenders a false sense of security.

 

If mis-used alarm isn't sounding, that doesn't mean there is no CO present.

[Guest]

Any alarm, even one that occasionally activates wrongly (provided it also activates when necessary) is better than no alarm. People have died due to having no alarm onboard.

 

I believe this is Max Welly's point, and is certainly mine. Perhaps the boat safety scheme should take a similar view if truly concerned with safety.

 

Rog

 

I am aware of and fully acknowledged this in the final line of my post.

 

Yes a CO alarm meeting Part one is better than nothing ..........

 

I also think you should read what I actually posted from the BSS site which is.

 

If you have a Kitemarked alarm, tested to BS EN 50291, or 50291-1, the advice is to keep it, test it routinely and when it needs replacing, choose a unit tested to BS EN 50291-2 (suitable for boats).

 

However I am pointing out that if you are buying new or if you wish to replace an alarm it is safer to buy an alarm that meets the correct std. why wouldn't you when they come in at just about the same price anyway?

 

Feel free however if you wish to pay the same but have one that doesn't meet the correct std. it's your choice, I just provided the info. if people don't want to take it on board or are not interested that is entirely their call.

 

The other point of course is that your BSS examiner (whoever they were) was clearly not aware of the fact that there are actually alarms suitable for use on boats (Gareth linked to them in post 3 in case you missed it)

Edited September 17, 2016 by MJG

[Guest]

Both on the packing and the Toolstation website says it meets part 2....and the symbol is shown for a caravan but crossed thro for a boat....I think if you download the Manual it says part 2.....unless they have withdrawn that now from the website

 

Heres the link to the manual

 

http://fireangel.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/CO-9D%20Manual.pdf

 

Which shows the line through the boat symbol but says complies with part 2!!

 

It's very annoying when even the manufacturer can't be definite with anything.

 

I think it would pay to check that marine use is covered even if the alarm meets part 2 just to be in the safe side.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

That alarm is the same one fitted to our caravan - so at least I'm OK! Totally weird that they give such conflicting info. though.

[dogless]

I wasn't criticising anyone, merely stating a view that the boat safety scheme's view not to require any alarm is odd in the context of safety on a boat.

 

My boat safety examiner did indeed know that alarms are recommended for different environments. He was trying to explain to me why the requirement for an alarm does not form part of the requirements.

 

I still think any alarm is better than none. I will continue to operate in that way, selecting the alarms most suited. And being a confirmed whittler I will have several

 

Rog

[MtB]

I wasn't criticising anyone, merely stating a view that the boat safety scheme's view not to require any alarm is odd in the context of safety on a boat.

 

My boat safety examiner did indeed know that alarms are recommended for different environments. He was trying to explain to me why the requirement for an alarm does not form part of the requirements.

 

I still think any alarm is better than none. I will continue to operate in that way, selecting the alarms most suited. And being a confirmed whittler I will have several

 

Rog

 

 

True, but you seem to be criticising the BSS for not demanding CO detectors not quite suitable.

 

A bit like saying although there should be no gas leaks whatsoever but if you can't comply with this, a little gas leak is best.

[Guest]

For anybody actually interested in buying one (or more) of the correct type. The Kidde 7DCO is currently still available at £16 from Amazon. I have checked the manual and it confirms it both meets the std. and is indicated in the instructions suitable for use on a boat, unlike the confusing info. provided by Fire Angel on the other product.

http://www.kiddesafetyeurope.co.uk/Documents/2530-7202-02_7CO(Caravans).pdf

It looks like it has been discontinued by the maker as it no longer appears on their site but Amazon still currently have stock.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00ABGEL62/ref=s9_acsd_al_bw_c_x_2

Edited September 17, 2016 by MJG

[Up-Side-Down]

Apologies if this has been covered before, however yesterday I had my boat safety examination and discussed with the examiner, why there is still no requirement for either alarms to be present.

 

Apparently as no alarm has, as yet, been specifically designed for use on boats, such a requirement cannot be made. Obviously they are strongly advised, but that is all.

 

Seems a really odd stand point. Few items are so clearly and obviously safety based. Hardly seems logical that the examiner is required to check for kite marks on hoses, or that stove glasses are in good order, but without requirement for this. It appears to me most recent boat deaths have been attributable to carbon monoxide, and insisting on an alarm of any type, could truly be a life saver.

 

Rog

 

Some may recall my recent post re a dangerous solid fuel stove installation that happily met and passed BSS requirements (although through absolutely no fault of the examiner).

 

When this was used as an example of the shortcomings of the scheme – we all agreed that the fitting of CO alarms was the only realistic safeguard in this specific situation – BSS HQ announced that there was a currently a process under way for mandatory fitting on hire boats to be followed by a roll out for all other boats scheduled to kick in in 18 months time.

 

Using this as an example

[frangar]

For anybody actually interested in buying one (or more) of the correct type. The Fire Angel 7DCO is currently still available at £16 from Amazon. I have checked the manual and it confirms it both meets the std. and is indicated in the instructions suitable for use on a boat, unlike the confusing info. provided by Fire Angel on the other product.

 

http://www.kiddesafetyeurope.co.uk/Documents/2530-7202-02_7CO(Caravans).pdf

 

It looks like it has been discontinued by the maker as it no longer appears on their site but Amazon still currently have stock.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00ABGEL62/ref=s9_acsd_al_bw_c_x_2

Can I just point out to lessen any confusion the the 7DCO is made by kidde not fire angel.....and is indeed the one I ended up with as its only one I could find with a display that's approved for use on boats and is a reasonable size. I got mine from Amazon a couple of weeks ago.

[Guest]

Can I just point out to lessen any confusion the the 7DCO is made by kidde not fire angel.....and is indeed the one I ended up with as its only one I could find with a display that's approved for use on boats and is a reasonable size. I got mine from Amazon a couple of weeks ago.

 

Ah yes my bad I'll alter my post.

[BlueStringPudding]

Apologies if this has been covered before, however yesterday I had my boat safety examination and discussed with the examiner, why there is still no requirement for either alarms to be present.

 

Apparently as no alarm has, as yet, been specifically designed for use on boats, such a requirement cannot be made. Obviously they are strongly advised, but that is all.

 

Seems a really odd stand point. Few items are so clearly and obviously safety based. Hardly seems logical that the examiner is required to check for kite marks on hoses, or that stove glasses are in good order, but without requirement for this. It appears to me most recent boat deaths have been attributable to carbon monoxide, and insisting on an alarm of any type, could truly be a life saver.

 

Rog

Odd argument from your BSS chap. Fire extinguishers and fire blankets aren't designed specifically for boats but they are a requirement. I think he was just guessing at a reason CO alarms aren't compulsory.

 

My CO alarms have always been reliable but I've got through all sorts of different smoke alarms that just go mental after a few months on the boat, giving false alarms despite being placed in different locations. I don't think they like the changing temperatures and humidity. Maybe CO alarms have similar problems.

[Chewbacka]

Additions of new technologies to requirements take ages to work through the various stages to be added into regulation requirements.

Then you get down to the details. So for example can the CO detector have replaceable batteries? If so those that see the value of CO detectors will already have one, many that do not wish to spend the money will not bother replacing the batteries when they run out. So should the regs require the detectors to be fitted with a long life non replaceable battery or hard wired into the boats 12v system?

Then should all boats have them? even canoes? Just boats with solid fuel stoves or fixed LPG appliances? in which case boats with portable single ring cookers which are high risk in poorly ventilated cabins would not be protected.

So much for committees to ponder.....................

[ValandPete]

When buying our last CO and smoke alarm it appeared to me that integral batteries were pretty much standard now.

 

We bought an optical smoke alarm that rarely false alarms and the CO alarm never does.

 

Val

[dogless]

I heard two couples discussing swapping over fire extinguishers because a BSS examination was due and their extinguishers were off pressure.

 

The limitations of the BSS or indeed any kind of test, will always be down to the situation at the time of examination.

 

Not withstanding that they can be unreliable, none are specifically designed for boats, batteries may be removed, the alarm may be thrown in the canal, I still remain surprised that these fundamental safety features are not a requirement of the test. It can surely only be a matter of time before they are.

 

At home even my gas insurance requires me to have a carbon monoxide alarm.

 

Rog

[mross]

Does anyone know what would make a CO detector suitable for a caravan or motor home, but not a boat?

[Guest]

Does anyone know what would make a CO detector suitable for a caravan or motor home, but not a boat?

 

I can't no.

 

To me if it meets the standard and is declared as such it should meet ALL aspects of the std.

 

To me it's very naughty of Fire Angel to say theirs meets the respective std. but then to exclude installation in boats.

[MtB]

Does anyone know what would make a CO detector suitable for a caravan or motor home, but not a boat?

 

 

Turning things on their head, it is probably the manufacturers instructions/specification sheet that stops it being suitable. Probably no more than 'defensive engineering'.

 

A caravan monitor would probably be fine in a boat 99.9% of the time but the manufacturers have probably not tested specifically and extensively in the boat environment. 'Probably be fine' isn't good enough for the the demanding consumer of today so the manufacturer just says 'not suitable for boats' in case someone somewhere finds some weird circumstance that allows them to sue the manufacturer for a false description.

[cuthound]

Turning things on their head, it is probably the manufacturers instructions/specification sheet that stops it being suitable. Probably no more than 'defensive engineering'.

 

A caravan monitor would probably be fine in a boat 99.9% of the time but the manufacturers have probably not tested specifically and extensively in the boat environment. 'Probably be fine' isn't good enough for the the demanding consumer of today so the manufacturer just says 'not suitable for boats' in case someone somewhere finds some weird circumstance that allows them to sue the manufacturer for a false description.

Yes, it will probably be because it won't work underwater, and caravans are much less likely to sink than boats ☺

[ditchcrawler]

My smoke detector started chirping this morning, thankfully it waited until half nine as its in the back cabin, so new PP3 battery fitted. It would have been a pain at half one.

[Bewildered]

Slightly off topic; fire extinguishers in commercial buildings,

My brother is a school site manager, he got fed up with the annual inspection of the fire extinguisher and the fact that the fire officer was constantly recommending fitting more of them, but then he did work for the company that supplied them.

My brother was having none this and kept asking what is the minimum legal requirement, obviously the fire officer was very vague on this subject. So my brother did his own reaserch and found out that the legal requirement for fire extinguishers in a school is zero. You don't actually need them. The fire officer was adamant that they were required. My brother then asked him, so who is going to use them? The policy of the school is to evacuate and under no circumstance to attempt to tackle the fire.

The fire officer responded by saying the fire brigade may want to use them, to which my brother said "what the guys who turn up in a bloody great pump with all the fire fighting gear are going to want to use a pathetic little extinguisher"?

So the moral of this is be wary of who gives you advice.

 

It is curious though most commercial premises have fire extinguishes located near the exits, and in the modern world of H&S a policy that says evacuate, don't attempt to tackle the fire. So you are almost out of the building when you see this bright red extinguisher and you think to yourself, maybe I should go back in and put myself in danger again.

[QCat]

Lol :-)

 

If the fire was between me and the exit I'd probably want an extinguisher though!

[Detling]

Lol :-)

 

If the fire was between me and the exit I'd probably want an extinguisher though!

which suggests they should be place far away from the exit at strategic points on evacuation routes.

[QCat]

Agree. I have two on my boat, one between galley and dinette and one against the bulkhead behind which lies all the electrical gubbins above the engine. It's in grabbing range of the bed.

 

Thinking of it in that context they seem sensible locations.

 

Smoke alarm is almost dead centre of the boat opposite dinette and CO alarm is in saloon on opposite wall to stove. A second CO alarm for next to the bed will be ordered tomorrow!

[ditchcrawler]

Just a question for every one who says they should be mandatory, When did you last have a leak test done on your stove?

[Bewildered]

The same is true for anywhere, you want extinguisher on your route to the exit in case you need to fight your way to it. You don't want them at the exit when you have already evacuated. Closing the stable door and all that.

 

Years ago my mate had a mk III Cortina, driving out of London one night his engine caught fire, we quickly pulled over to the hard shoulder on the M4, he did have a fire extinguisher in the car but the idiot had mounted it under the bonnet, where the fire was????

[dogless]

Just a question for every one who says they should be mandatory, When did you last have a leak test done on your stove?

I was expressing surprise in my initial post that there is no requirement for any kind of alarm to be fitted, particularly in the light of the reason I was given (no alarm is as yet specifically designed for boats).

 

I have reported on here in the past, being alerted to a stove problem by the activation of my carbon monoxide alarms. Fortunately just a build up of ash restricting air flow.

 

Obviously individuals can install fire extinguishers, and remove them after the test, and similarly side step other provisions of the BSS. I don't see that as any sort of argument.

 

Surely the idea of the BSS is to keep us all as safe as possible, and prevent the type of sad and avoidable accidents as described in another post. To that end I would not argue against stove leak testing or indeed any other measures designed to keep me safe.

 

Rog