Correct procedure at double locks

[junior]

Thanks for the info, oh well it looks like Wheaton Aston then.

Headed up to Chester at the moment, I've been running about a day ahead of you.

 

I don't know how quickly you're moving, but I'll be back in Nantwich weds evening and Audlem on Thursday.

[Ray T]

Yes duly sucked up, the OP was just genuinely to wonder what % of folk thought we were right/wrong.

 

Anyway just spent a happy couple of hours getting through Wardle. Hire boats all fine, but a couple of private boats fannying around incredibly, I think it must have taken them 30 mins each. Wouldnt wait at the foot of the lock, took ages to negotiate the junction, and were 1/2 click wonders. Took us 5 mins, waiting at the foot of the lock, both paddles fully up (you do have to be careful with that lock, but it's fine so long as you pay attention).

 

Where is Halsall at the moment? We could take some fuel if you're in the vicinity.

 

 

I trust you paid due deference to Maureen Shaw?

 

 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Ray T

[NickF]

Suck it up Nick, it's the season for it. I'm encountering at least 2 things a day at the moment that make me want to tear my hair out. Thankfully i don't gave any.

 

I'd love to come on here and have a daily rant, but in the end i think everyone would get bored of it, so i just take a deep breath and smile.

 

I am going to confess my sins here though....

 

Yesterday i was 11th in the que to go up Minshull Lock. This means hovering mid channel for about 90mins until i could get on the bollards, the only place deep enough for me to get close to the bank. Once i was on the bollards i went up to the lock to help through a couple of boats in front.

During this time a boat arrived to go down, wife steering and husband closing top gate behind her. I got a thumbs up from steerer and opened gate paddle to start her going down at which point she started screaming and husband came running over shouting "just a quarter of a paddle!!". I gave him a puzzled look and replied "but you're going downhill".

He then stated "but she doesn't like going down quickly". I replied "tough luck, there's a que of 8 boats down there waiting to come up". He looked down, saw the que and acknowledged that they ought to get a move on.

 

Now I'm sorry, i know i broke rule number one that the steerer is always in charge. I also realise that some people like to be 'one click wonders' when going uphill, but I'm sorry, going downhill there is absolutely no need for half or quater paddle opening. In my opinion.

 

 

I agree entirely, I do feel that if there is a queue for a lock you really need to get through as quickly as you safely can for the sake of others waiting. And yes I normally wander up to the lock and help just to speed the process up a bit so it gets to my turn sooner. (always checking with the boat steerer that they are happy with what I am doing)

[nicknorman]

Headed up to Chester at the moment, I've been running about a day ahead of you.

I don't know how quickly you're moving, but I'll be back in Nantwich weds evening and Audlem on Thursday.

Fairly quickly. We've got to be back at Fazeley for Sunday, via Brum, so we'll only be on the shroppie a couple of days. Probably nightstop Audlem tomorrow, then onwards and downwards. Jeff has to go to work - the fool!

I trust you paid due deference to Maureen Shaw?

 

post-910-0-93406500-1465996039.jpg

Yes, not quite the same without her.

[dixi188]

At Hilmorton locks about 2 weeks ago we were coming from the south to go down. As we approached there was a lockie walking towards us. He said he had just filled the left lock for the boat in front of us but they had gone over to the right lock and started to fill that one. We used the left lock and were out of the second lock before the other boat was out of the first.

 

Last Sunday we came back through and the same lockie told us that the previous day he had a queue of 17 boats, 12 of which were novices. I think these guys must have the "patience of Job" to do this.

 

As for the way to go up a lock, put the boat on the cill or top gate and leave it in gear until the gate starts to open. The fender and that great big lump of steel at the front are designed for this.

 

Just had 5 weeks of almost trouble free cruising. (Big lump of carpet around the prop in Digbeth)

Bliss.

[Tiggs]

 

 

As for the way to go up a lock, put the boat on the cill or top gate and leave it in gear until the gate starts to open. The fender and that great big lump of steel at the front are designed for this.

 

 

 

Yes, works 99% of the time, but

 

1. when the cill plate is missing you can get the front stuck under the edge of the cill

2. when the lock gate plate is missing or too short you can take the lock gate off

[FadeToScarlet]

 

Yes, works 99% of the time, but

 

1. when the cill plate is missing you can get the front stuck under the edge of the cill

2. when the lock gate plate is missing or too short you can take the lock gate off

Then

 

1. Make sure the edge of the baseplate doesn't protrude beyond the bottom of the stempost

 

2. Buy a boat with a proper rounded stempost at the top that won't catch.

Edited July 23, 2016 by FadeToScarlet

[Mac of Cygnet]

All this talk of queues at locks makes me glad I'm on the HNC. Moored above Lock 31E in a glorious setting, there's been 2 boats through the lock today.

[nicknorman]

All this talk of queues at locks makes me glad I'm on the HNC. Moored above Lock 31E in a glorious setting, there's been 2 boats through the lock today.

But that's the thing for us, we've been out a week now and barely seen any boats moving - now I know why, they were all waiting at Middlewich for us to come by! Probably as many moving boats seen today as in the whole of the trip so far!

[dixi188]

Tiggs and FTS

 

Yup! Got to keep an eye on things just in case.

Also does not work on wide locks with only one boat.

I've seen the damage on the K & A caused by boats getting caught under the top of the gate and lifting them out of the socket.

[Linda Musgrove]

As for the way to go up a lock, put the boat on the cill or top gate and leave it in gear until the gate starts to open. The fender and that great big lump of steel at the front are designed for this.

 

Just had 5 weeks of almost trouble free cruising. (Big lump of carpet around the prop in Digbeth)

Bliss.

this is correct, with two of you both should be on the bankside in a narrow lock. Edited July 23, 2016 by Linda Musgrove

[nicknorman]

this is correct, with two of you both should be on the bankside in a narrow lock.

I disagree. Perhaps you could state the source for your authoritative proclamation? Or at least give some hint of a justification?

Edited July 24, 2016 by nicknorman

[Linda Musgrove]

it's obvious. it doesn't take a person to manage a boat in a narrow lock, it's simple idleness. and two on the bank halves the work. in a flight, once the crew has set the lock they should be at the next one while the helm operates the one the boat is in.

 

whilst it's absolutely up to you how you do locks and I'll accept you may be too infirm to go up a ladder this is the most efficient way for a crew of two to do narrow locks.

[manxmike]

it's obvious. it doesn't take a person to manage a boat in a narrow lock, it's simple idleness. and two on the bank halves the work. in a flight, once the crew has set the lock they should be at the next one while the helm operates the one the boat is in.

 

whilst it's absolutely up to you how you do locks and I'll accept you may be too infirm to go up a ladder this is the most efficient way for a crew of two to do narrow locks.

Wow Linda, you have obviously never gone through a lock which exhibits "violent" shifts of water, or you like the sound of breaking china!

We're never in that much of a rush (thank goodness) and personally I find single handing is actually quicker and more efficient than mob handed.

 

I always put my stern against the lower gates when ascending and bows against them when descending, engine in appropriate gear on tick-over. Keeps me in place nicely until I'm ready to move on.

[Guest]

All this talk of queues at locks makes me glad I'm on the HNC. Moored above Lock 31E in a glorious setting, there's been 2 boats through the lock today.

 

However when CRT start to feel the pinch and start to look for waterways to close to save money, I doubt they'll start with the busy Midlands and Southern Waterways.

[FadeToScarlet]

Wow Linda, you have obviously never gone through a lock which exhibits "violent" shifts of water, or you like the sound of breaking china!

We're never in that much of a rush (thank goodness) and personally I find single handing is actually quicker and more efficient than mob handed.

 

I always put my stern against the lower gates when ascending and bows against them when descending, engine in appropriate gear on tick-over. Keeps me in place nicely until I'm ready to move on.

She's right, it is the quickest way. It does help (and hinder) having a 72' boat, if you're not on the cill the gates won't close, or of not on the bottom gates you risk cilling. It does mean the boat can't move too far in either direction, assuming it's not a short lock like at Curdworth the fenders take any knocks.

 

It's not about being in a rush, it's about how to move through a lock in the most efficient way. It means thinking about not just the lock you're in, but the next one; once the steerer is at the head or tail of the lock with both paddles open, the crew goes to set the next whilst the steerer brings the boat out of the lock and closes up.

[___]

it's obvious. it doesn't take a person to manage a boat in a narrow lock, it's simple idleness. and two on the bank halves the work. in a flight, once the crew has set the lock they should be at the next one while the helm operates the one the boat is in.

whilst it's absolutely up to you how you do locks and I'll accept you may be too infirm to go up a ladder this is the most efficient way for a crew of two to do narrow locks.

Welcome to the forum Linda and congratulations on finally making a successful - if controversial - post.

 

It's really up to the crew at the end of the day isn't it? I don't think it's obvious or that crews are idle for remaining on the boat. When ascending with one other person if I am the helmsman I step off as the boat ascends and finish off the operation while the other person goes ahead. I wouldn't require that of my 14yo son or 75yo father though. It's more difficult when descending as the routine use of lock ladders could be argued to be not worth it from the point of view of safety versus time but I do step off to close the top gate and possibly draw a lower paddle before stepping back on. The best way to control the boat is with the engine.

 

JP

Edited July 24, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[alan_fincher]

. The fender and that great big lump of steel at the front are designed for this.

 

 

Yes, works 99% of the time, but

 

1. when the cill plate is missing you can get the front stuck under the edge of the cill

2. when the lock gate plate is missing or too short you can take the lock gate off

 

 

Then

 

1. Make sure the edge of the baseplate doesn't protrude beyond the bottom of the stempost

 

2. Buy a boat with a proper rounded stempost at the top that won't catch.

Except Tiggs was commenting on a post that implies you hve the front fender deployed when riding the uphill gate.

 

So I would argue his cautions are in fact spot on.

 

There are heaps of locks where if you run in gear against the cill and uphill gate with front fender down where you could end up in trouble.

 

Also another hazard is rubbing plates where bolt heads project and the fender can catch those.

 

Of course if you have weak links in the fender chain so it rips off if it does catch under something some of the worst possible outcomes are largely avoidable, but why cruise in a manner where your fender might get ripped off in any7 uphill lock.

[alan_fincher]

this is correct, with two of you both should be on the bankside in a narrow lock.

 

 

it's obvious. it doesn't take a person to manage a boat in a narrow lock, it's simple idleness. and two on the bank halves the work. in a flight, once the crew has set the lock they should be at the next one while the helm operates the one the boat is in.

 

whilst it's absolutely up to you how you do locks and I'll accept you may be too infirm to go up a ladder this is the most efficient way for a crew of two to do narrow locks.

 

I'm not sure you will endear too many people by leaping in with your "one size fits all" rule, to be applied irrespective of what the lock is, what the boat is, and who the crew are.

 

I would prefer to think that circumstances are different, and you do what is most appropriate at the time, but the idea that a crew of two always gets off the boat at a narrow lock then either requires climbing of lock ladders, or a degree of manhandling with ropes. For example in a downhill situation if you let the boat ride the lower gates in gear, how do you then extract it from the lock without being at the tiller?

 

As the Cheshire Locks have been mentioned, I would say that we have been in the situation where our 40 foot tug has descended to the bottom, is now against the bottom gates, but all available lock ladders are not where the boat is. Being too far to jump down, our only option was to part refill the lock to the point where a steerer could get on.

 

In this case, of course, if neither of us was on the boat we needed a rope off, such that it was possible to reposition the boat to line up with a ladder, but frankly we could have avoided that simply by a steerer being on board.

 

Where it is single narrow locks not in a flight, I can't think of many cases where the steerer getting of helps very much. For the other person to work a single lock alone is hardly arduous, and unlikely to add significant delay if done efficiently.

[nicknorman]

it's obvious. it doesn't take a person to manage a boat in a narrow lock, it's simple idleness. and two on the bank halves the work. in a flight, once the crew has set the lock they should be at the next one while the helm operates the one the boat is in.

whilst it's absolutely up to you how you do locks and I'll accept you may be too infirm to go up a ladder this is the most efficient way for a crew of two to do narrow locks.

No it neither obvious nor related to laziness. If everyone who has a different view from you is "lazy" by your definition, I think you are in for a hard time on this forum.

 

As I alluded to earlier, the most expeditious way to transit locks is dependant on a number of factors. For example we have just transitted Minshull lock uphill (miraculously sans queue). It's quite deep. I drove the boat in, stopped a little in front of the bottom gate, Jeff closed the gates and fully opened both top paddles. I kept the boat under control right at the back of the lock. I am sure that if I had nudged the front gate and the climbed onto the roof and then up the slimy lock ladder before the paddles were opened, this would have substantially delayed things.

 

But in terms of sharing bankside duties, when going down hill I typically enter the lock, select the appropriate revs in reverse (depending on the entry speed), get off and close the gate with Jeff waiting at the bottom paddles, back on the boat to snick it into neutral as it comes to a stop. And for uphill once the paddles are fully up and nearing full, with Jeff now going ahead, I'll get off to open the gates, drop paddles and close up afterwards.

 

Lock ladders are fairly dangerous things - relatively. If you are single handed you probably have to use them. If you are not, they are best avoided since, with frequent exposure comes the complacency that will inevitably, given enough time, lead to slippage and injury. Especially if you are trying to be expeditious. When I single hand I do use lock ladders but always with care and a certain deliberate slowness that inevitably leads to a slightly slower lock transit.

 

The above all relates to our 59' boat which is of course within the fairly popular size range. If your boat is full length no doubt a slightly different technique might be optimal.

[Peter X]

There is no one best way to tackle a lock, because so many variables are involved; the boat (or boats if moving a pair; lots more complications there!), the number of crew and their ability and fitness, whether doing a single lock or a flight, the quirks of particular canals and individual locks, and the extent to which help (or sometimes hindrance) is available from other boaters or CRT staff/volunteers.

 

However in the particular case of a crew of two taking a typical narrow boat through a narrow lock, I would normally expect that one person stays aboard to control the engine, possibly using a line round a bollard to keep the boat in position, while the other does all the lock operation. For efficient working the latter should often mean stepping off at a bridge hole so as to arrive first at the lock and get it set, that can save a lot of time. Sometimes it makes sense for the steerer to come off the boat, but that means weighing up the effort of using ladders and lines against the time saved operating gates and paddles, and there will often be someone from another boat around to assist anyway.

 

As to the OP's question, I feel he was quite right to turn the other lock in the circumstances described, assuming there wasn't a boat approaching to come up which would have got there before the first lock became available. When there's plenty of water available, either excess rainwater or CRT water management causing it to overflow down by-washes, conserving it becomes unimportant.

[MtB]

it's obvious. it doesn't take a person to manage a boat in a narrow lock, it's simple idleness. and two on the bank halves the work. in a flight, once the crew has set the lock they should be at the next one while the helm operates the one the boat is in.

 

whilst it's absolutely up to you how you do locks and I'll accept you may be too infirm to go up a ladder this is the most efficient way for a crew of two to do narrow locks.

 

 

Do you know the poster "Emma B" by any chance?

 

Your approach reminds me of hers, somehow,,,

[Paul C]

The way I ascend a lock with a strong forwards pull, single handed, is this:

 

1. Place boat at front of empty lock, against the cill (having carefully driven up to it and checked the cill buffer is in reasonable shape etc), idle forwards gear

2. Now, this phenomenon of the forwards pull needs to be expanded upon. When a paddle is first opened, there is a backwards push due to the extra flow. This eventually dwindles then there is a forwards pull. By exploiting these two things, and the boat being in forwards gear, its possible using only the paddle opening and timing to keep the boat fully under control. Let's say there's 2 paddles. Open one of them 2/3. The boat goes back (backwards push of the water), then it stops and comes forwards again.

3. Now before it collides harshly with the cill buffer, open the original paddle fully - the backwards push will slow/stop this from occurring. Then open the other paddle 1/3, the boat will go backwards a bit, then come forwards.

4. Open the paddles fully. The lock probably has 3-4 feet to go now. The boat will once again go backwards then forwards again, over the cill this time.

5. By this time its possible to get onto the boat, so it can now be positioned very gently on the top gate, then idle forwards engaged again. The lock will be filling slowly to level, and depending on the weight of the gate, the boat will open it a little once full. If the idle is gentle enough, then if you stand on the non-towpath side there's time to close the paddle, cross the lock, fully open the gate and close the towpath side paddle before the boat is gone

 

I'm not telling people to do this, or trying to teach others to. Its a dynamic thing. Like a skiing turn, or a J-turn in a car. Not everyone will get it, some will just never get the timing and completely muddle it up. But it relies on nothing except physics, which is consistent, so its controllable and repeatable (with enough skill). Indeed with skill its possible to do with no contact of the cill or gate at all, all the while balancing the position and speed of the boat with appropriate paddle opening.

[Stilllearning]

The way I ascend a lock with a strong forwards pull, single handed, is this:

 

1. Place boat at front of empty lock, against the cill (having carefully driven up to it and checked the cill buffer is in reasonable shape etc), idle forwards gear

2. Now, this phenomenon of the forwards pull needs to be expanded upon. When a paddle is first opened, there is a backwards push due to the extra flow. This eventually dwindles then there is a forwards pull. By exploiting these two things, and the boat being in forwards gear, its possible using only the paddle opening and timing to keep the boat fully under control. Let's say there's 2 paddles. Open one of them 2/3. The boat goes back (backwards push of the water), then it stops and comes forwards again.

3. Now before it collides harshly with the cill buffer, open the original paddle fully - the backwards push will slow/stop this from occurring. Then open the other paddle 1/3, the boat will go backwards a bit, then come forwards.

4. Open the paddles fully. The lock probably has 3-4 feet to go now. The boat will once again go backwards then forwards again, over the cill this time.

5. By this time its possible to get onto the boat, so it can now be positioned very gently on the top gate, then idle forwards engaged again. The lock will be filling slowly to level, and depending on the weight of the gate, the boat will open it a little once full. If the idle is gentle enough, then if you stand on the non-towpath side there's time to close the paddle, cross the lock, fully open the gate and close the towpath side paddle before the boat is gone

 

I'm not telling people to do this, or trying to teach others to. Its a dynamic thing. Like a skiing turn, or a J-turn in a car. Not everyone will get it, some will just never get the timing and completely muddle it up. But it relies on nothing except physics, which is consistent, so its controllable and repeatable (with enough skill). Indeed with skill its possible to do with no contact of the cill or gate at all, all the while balancing the position and speed of the boat with appropriate paddle opening.

 

And at your point 3 or 4, the use of what I call the old man steps that a re brass and fold out from the side of the tumblehome and make it possible to step down in safety and comfort. I used to be so rude about them , till I got middle aged!

[David Mack]

it's obvious. it doesn't take a person to manage a boat in a narrow lock, it's simple idleness. and two on the bank halves the work. in a flight, once the crew has set the lock they should be at the next one while the helm operates the one the boat is in.

 

whilst it's absolutely up to you how you do locks and I'll accept you may be too infirm to go up a ladder this is the most efficient way for a crew of two to do narrow locks.

Since lock ladders are a relatively recent innovation, what was your right way for two people to work locks before they were provided?