CRT Priorities

[Midnight]

This is Newlay lock near Leeds this morning. One lockie to manage the triple lock three CRT staff and a hire van chugging on the towpath. It's Thursday and there were literally 7 people on the towpath during our descent.,,,

 

... in the meanwhile - update just read another stoppage notice the Huddersfield Narrow this time so that means all three trans-pennine routes are now closed. Priorities!

 

Edited June 16, 2016 by Midnight

[magictime]

I assume the staff on the towpath are manning one of those stands intended to raise awareness of CRT and recruit 'Friends'?

 

So it's 'chicken and egg', isn't it? What comes first - maintaining the waterways, or winning support and funding to maintain the waterways?

 

In any case, there's no reason to believe those staff (volunteers?) have the skills needed to get those waterways re-opened by repairing infrastructure etc.

 

And the thing with priorities is that they're only priorities. The other items on CRT's 'to do' list don't disappear just because they have particular priorities at a given moment.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

CaRT is still losing money on charitable giving and its board were told back in January that it had no hope of making its friends recruitment target for 2015/16. Indeed CaRT published figures showing that the number of friends went down during the winter period.

 

CaRT's board were also told back in January that it had no realistic hope of making its target for fixing high priority defects this year. These are the 5,000 or so defects out of 70,000(?) that it tries to fix each year because of safety or customer service concerns.

 

I don't believe that the few millions that CaRT has lost in the first few years attempting to attract friends would have made any difference had it instead been invested in the waterways. Conversely, I don't believe any future income from charitable giving will make any difference whatsoever to CaRT's ability to maintain its waterways.

 

Perhaps not so much a case of chicken and egg as fiddling whilst Rome burns.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Allan(nb Albert)

[churchward]

I assume the staff on the towpath are manning one of those stands intended to raise awareness of CRT and recruit 'Friends'?

 

So it's 'chicken and egg', isn't it? What comes first - maintaining the waterways, or winning support and funding to maintain the waterways?

 

In any case, there's no reason to believe those staff (volunteers?) have the skills needed to get those waterways re-opened by repairing infrastructure etc.

 

And the thing with priorities is that they're only priorities. The other items on CRT's 'to do' list don't disappear just because they have particular priorities at a given moment.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

CaRT is still losing money on charitable giving and its board were told back in January that it had no hope of making its friends recruitment target for 2015/16. Indeed CaRT published figures showing that the number of friends went down during the winter period.

 

CaRT's board were also told back in January that it had no realistic hope of making its target for fixing high priority defects this year. These are the 5,000 or so defects out of 70,000(?) that it tries to fix each year because of safety or customer service concerns.

 

I don't believe that the few millions that CaRT has lost in the first few years attempting to attract friends would have made any difference had it instead been invested in the waterways. Conversely, I don't believe any future income from charitable giving will make any difference whatsoever to CaRT's ability to maintain its waterways.

 

Perhaps not so much a case of chicken and egg as fiddling whilst Rome burns.

Not really.

[Midnight]

I wonder if some of you miss the point. How much does it cost for three chuggers who were all CRT staff not volunteers to man a stand on a dull Thursday. Why not just one? How much do you think was raised in relation to the cost? After all, only one lockie is needed to manage the lock. I think Alan hit the head on the nail!

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I wonder if some of you miss the point. How much does it cost for three chuggers who were all CRT staff not volunteers to man a stand on a dull Thursday. Why not just one? How much do you think was raised in relation to the cost? After all, only one lockie is needed to manage the lock. I think Alan hit the head on the nail!

Chuggers are paid £9 per hour. I guess most can do the maths. Not sure about the van hire costs.

 

With regard to how much was raised, that depends on how many were recruited, how much a month they signed up for and how long they will be retained.

 

What is obvious, is that CaRT's plan to recruit 100,000 friends over ten years is in tatters. However, I suspect they will manage to have a 100,000 defects over the same period.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Allan(nb Albert)

[kris88]

Bit of a sneaky photo that, did you ask the lock keeper Paul to pose? You could have gone and talked to the fundraisers and found out what three of them where doing at Newley on a thurs, rather than speculate on a forum.

Alan do you have any links, so the things you say can be verified? Or do we have to take your word as gospel.

Edited June 17, 2016 by kris88

[Tuscan]

I believe it's £9 and hour plus travelling expenses, not sure about commission. The number of friends I expect will increase shortly as CRT have launched their free activity book which you can only obtain if you first have a fairly persistent phone call requesting you become a friend. Not sure how I feel about this I want CRT to be self sustaining but I'm not a fan of chugging.

 

I asked the head of volunteering once at a meeting when being told about the new focus on engagement (before the last survey) what % of CRT employeyes were either friends or volunteers they didn't know nor had thought to ask the question in a recent employee survey.

[magictime]

I wonder if some of you miss the point. How much does it cost for three chuggers who were all CRT staff not volunteers to man a stand on a dull Thursday. Why not just one? How much do you think was raised in relation to the cost? After all, only one lockie is needed to manage the lock. I think Alan hit the head on the nail!

 

I'm not sure how you know whether they were volunteers or not, unless you asked them outright.

 

Why not just one? Who knows? Maybe one or two were trainees. Maybe one was only there to deliver materials before driving off again. Maybe they feel they need to be able to talk to more than one passer-by at once.

 

In any case, in back-of-a-fag-packet terms, if all three were paid fundraisers and were there all day, it seems plausible to think that the cost of this day's fundraising (including van hire and materials) was c. £300. It seems similarly plausible that the average Friend might give £10 a month and be retained for three years, for a total of £360 - minus let's say £60 spent on sending them the magazine etc. So it seems plausible that if they recruited one Friend all day, CRT probably broke even; if they recruited ten, they probably raised £3,000+.

Edited June 17, 2016 by magictime

[Mike Todd]

I am not sure that we really know the reasons for the Friends scheme. As I recall, it was established in the context of the deal that set up CaRT out of the ashes of BW. It took place very hurriedly in a time when the government of the day wanted to be seen to be distancing itself from so-called Quangos (necessarily a 'bad thing':) It did seem to me that the decision to go down the Friends route was something taken either without a lot of investigation or by someone other than the new CaRT management. In this case, the whole thing may be subject to considerations other than straight finance (LTRU)

[Midnight]

I'm not sure how you know whether they were volunteers or not, unless you asked them outright.

 

Why not just one? Who knows? Maybe one or two were trainees. Maybe one was only there to deliver materials before driving off again. Maybe they feel they need to be able to talk to more than one passer-by at once.

 

In any case, in back-of-a-fag-packet terms, if all three were paid fundraisers and were there all day, it seems plausible to think that the cost of this day's fundraising (including van hire and materials) was c. £300. It seems similarly plausible that the average Friend might give £10 a month and be retained for three years, for a total of £360 - minus let's say £60 spent on sending them the magazine etc. So it seems plausible that if they recruited one Friend all day, CRT probably broke even; if they recruited ten, they probably raised £3,000+.

 

Yes I asked them, the lady said she managed the scheme. Three

staff and a hire van IMO is a bit over the top and money wasted on a doomed scheme that could be spent keeping the canals open. Whilst I was there they signed up nobody but did get a curt response from a cyclist. I did make the point a membership scheme might yield a better response, especially from boaters. To be told 70% of friends are boaters. A bit like the millions of towpath visitors they were expecting I think.

[pete.i]

Yes I asked them, the lady said she managed the scheme. Three

staff and a hire van IMO is a bit over the top and money wasted on a doomed scheme that could be spent keeping the canals open. Whilst I was there they signed up nobody but did get a curt response from a cyclist. I did make the point a membership scheme might yield a better response, especially from boaters. To be told 70% of friends are boaters. A bit like the millions of towpath visitors they were expecting I think.

Why would you question the idea that boaters are or are not friends of C&RT. Boaters pay huge sums into the coffers of C&RT so by definition they must be "friends." Also how else would you like C&RT raise funds for their dwindling coffers. I will admit that C&RT are not getting it right at the moment but to complain about it on this forum will not do any good. Make the suggestions direct to C&RT if you think they or you can do it better, (which to be fair to you they probably could)

[onionbargee]

I'm not a friend.

 

If CRT was on fire I wouldn't pee on it to put it out.

[Arthur Marshall]

I'm not a friend.

 

If CRT was on fire I wouldn't pee on it to put it out.

An attitude that seems to be reciprocated by CRT!

[Midnight]

Why would you question the idea that boaters are or are not friends of C&RT. Boaters pay huge sums into the coffers of C&RT so by definition they must be "friends." Also how else would you like C&RT raise funds for their dwindling coffers. I will admit that C&RT are not getting it right at the moment but to complain about it on this forum will not do any good. Make the suggestions direct to C&RT if you think they or you can do it better, (which to be fair to you they probably could)

I doubt 70% of boaters pay into the friends scheme. Although as you say by virtue of our fees we are friends. Not sure I was complaining just find it ironic that at a time when all three trans-pennine routes are closed that only one lockie is manning Newlay where past incidents suggest its a vulnerable job, yet three CRT staff are posted to raise money from a virtually non-existent public on a dull and wet Thurday. If you read my post you will see I did make suggestions, but I'm pleased you agree CRT aren't getting it right. That was the point of the post.

[adam1uk]

I doubt 70% of boaters pay into the friends scheme.

So would I. Earlier you said they'd told you that 70 per cent of friends were boaters -- not that 70 per cent of boaters were friends.

[Dharl]

Passed through Newbury on Wednesday where Mrs Dharl was approached by CART Chuggers in the high street. These Chuggers seemed a bit surprised that as boaters we already contributed a tad to the funds with our boat licence all ready....

 

I like the idea of membership rather than "friendship "

[churchward]

Passed through Newbury on Wednesday where Mrs Dharl was approached by CART Chuggers in the high street. These Chuggers seemed a bit surprised that as boaters we already contributed a tad to the funds with our boat licence all ready....

 

I like the idea of membership rather than "friendship "

I agree I have always thought a membership scheme would be better along the lines of the National Trust. I would also agree our licence fee should automatically make us a member as part of the fee.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Bit of a sneaky photo that, did you ask the lock keeper Paul to pose? You could have gone and talked to the fundraisers and found out what three of them where doing at Newley on a thurs, rather than speculate on a forum.

Alan do you have any links, so the things you say can be verified? Or do we have to take your word as gospel.

Certainly, the figures I have quoted in this thread are in the public domain with the exception of 70,000 defects which is an estimate. Last figure given was 59,000 but that is quite old.

 

For example, losses on charitable giving can be found from CaRT's published accounts. Losses for 2015/16 are not yet published but CaRT were projecting a further loss.

 

 

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I am not sure that we really know the reasons for the Friends scheme. As I recall, it was established in the context of the deal that set up CaRT out of the ashes of BW. It took place very hurriedly in a time when the government of the day wanted to be seen to be distancing itself from so-called Quangos (necessarily a 'bad thing':) It did seem to me that the decision to go down the Friends route was something taken either without a lot of investigation or by someone other than the new CaRT management. In this case, the whole thing may be subject to considerations other than straight finance (LTRU)

Are you saying that we don't why why a Friends scheme was adopted in preference to a membership scheme?

 

... or are you saying that we don't know why a Friends scheme was adopted as the main income stream for charitable giving.

 

Either way, I would suggest that it was not done hurriedly or without a lot of investigation.

 

I seem to recall that BW talked to several of the larger charities about fundraising and also commissioned a report from consultants.

 

I certainly remember that a parliamentary committee was not happy with BW's financial projections regarding fundraising with new figures being submitted including a 'prudence factor'.

 

 

**** Just remembered the consultants used - it was Think Consulting Solutions. Think Consulting solutions earlier partnered with other consultancies to produce a report in 2009 (yes 2009) which suggested that, as a charity, BW might be able to raise £10m a year from individual giving.

 

**** edited £10 corrected to £10m

Edited June 18, 2016 by Allan(nb Albert)

[MtB]

Why would you question the idea that boaters are or are not friends of C&RT. Boaters pay huge sums into the coffers of C&RT so by definition they must be "friends." Also how else would you like C&RT raise funds for their dwindling coffers. I will admit that C&RT are not getting it right at the moment but to complain about it on this forum will not do any good. Make the suggestions direct to C&RT if you think they or you can do it better, (which to be fair to you they probably could)

 

 

Not really.

 

In this context a "Friend" is someone who has signed up to donate £10 a month until further notice (in addition to their licence and mooring fees if they are a boater).

 

I too think it unlikely that 70% of the CRT "Friends" signed up to donate £10 a month are boaters.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

**** Just remembered the consultants used - it was Think Consulting Solutions. Think Consulting solutions earlier partnered with other consultancies to produce a report in 2009 (yes 2009) which suggested that, as a charity, BW might be able to raise £10 a year from individual giving.

 

A bit like my old School reports :

 

"Sets himself extremely low targets which he consistently fails to achieve".

 

However - I am sure that £10 would be achievable, even for C&RT

[MtB]

 

A bit like my old School reports :

 

"Sets himself extremely low targets which he consistently fails to achieve".

 

However - I am sure that £10 would be achievable, even for C&RT

 

 

Reminds me of that nice Mr Churchill's acerbic wit about Clement Atlee

 

"A modest man, who has much to be modest about"

[Tuscan]

No problem with the concept of friends , with 430 million visits there should be quite a captive market out there

[MtB]

That's a LOT of visits for a population of 63 million inhabitants of the UK to have to make...

Credibility of that 430 million visit figure? Zilch. Comical really.