Have found a boat with a good hull...now to sort the rest!

[maywillis]

Hi everybody, this is my first post and am not completely up to date with the technical jargon so please go easy. I've already found some amazingly helpful posts over the last few weeks, but I think I need some advise on my particular situation.

 

Have just had a survey done on a boat and the hull is sound. That and the interior cladding on the walls and ceilings are actually the best parts of the boat! The floor of the interior is fairly sound, with 1 board we may need to reinforce. We've got it at a reasonable price and have the luxury of a couple of months where we want to get the boat fixed up to be a liveaboard before moving onboard.

 

We aren't looking to do most of it ourselves as we simply don't have the skills, but we also don't want to be taken for a ride simply because we don't know what to compare things to. From the research I have done, I have my eyes open to the skills needed for this and want to assure anyone reading i'm not just after 'the cheapest' price.

 

1.Do I have to use specific marine electricians and plumbers in order to pass the safety certification?

2.We want to have the equivalent of central heating and hot water. It has radiators and a calorifier but the Eberspacher that had been there was removed as it was 'broken'. (My guess is that it wasn't broken and the person wanted to keep an expensive kit for another boat...fair does I have budgeted for a new Eberspacher but before we go down that route I want to really understand if there is another way of getting what we require.)

• We don't want to have to turn the engine on for hot water. We would prefer it more inhouse like immersion.
• We will be replacing the stove either way as it is too small but we also don't want to rely on this for heating.

3.The electrics has been described as 'spaghetti junction' and pretty amateur. As electrics are a pretty standard and important part, we would want to make this a bit plainer and also up to safety standards from the get go.

• Does this mean stripping back behind the panels and the flooring to remove?
• Half of the electrics work off the battery, half only on shoreline. (The half only on shoreline are the kitchen...not great for when we will want to go on an adventure). Does this suggest a complete refit?
• We want everything to work both on battery and on shoreline.

4.I would really appreciate any recommendations of electricians/plumbers/engineers in the Reading area.

Thanks in advance for any help and advice. We are quite prepared for the initial spendout and we are happier to do it this way rather than having a sailaway (repeating myself) as the hull was in such good nick as is the immediate interiors. It also looks like the boat has spray foam insulation.

 

Please be kind. We have spoken with a couple of people who had a bit of superiority complex, but we are just trying to learn and we have to start somewhere! (Luckily for us, found a very good surveyor and helpful boatyard in the end.)

 

Steph and Liddy.

[dmr]

Getting the heating and 'lectrik right on a liveaboard boat is a complicated subject, there are different opinions and what works for some folk might not work for others. You need to rapidly learn about this to decide what You want before getting expensive professionals to get their tools out.

Example, almost all liveaboards use a solid fuel stove as their main source of heat, maybe feeding a radiator or two, but for a few people this is all just too much muck and trouble and so they have to have central heating. A good well maintained stove will never let you down (as you will keep a spare glass somewhere in the boat), every other form of heat will break when you least need it to.

 

A calorifier (boaty hot water tank) can hold a fair bit of hot water, heated by the engine, and will stay warm for a couple of days (with luck and planning) so you don't actually need to run the engine everytime you want hot water. Older boats had "instant" water heaters but these are out of fashion now, and not really up to running a good shower.

 

Try to get rid of everything that needs 240v and work just from 12volts, with a 240v inverter for occasional use (a big mains hairdrier is probably fine when the engine is running).

 

Its summer, can you muddle thru for a couple of months to learn about the boat then get it sorted ready for winter??

 

..............Dave

[RichM]

I think Dave makes a great point. He surely deserves a trophy!

I'd add that it makes sense to have redundancy on board if you're living aboard. That way if one system fails, you have another to depend on until you fix the problem. Especially given all mechanical and electrical parts are destined to fail at some point.

 

In my case:

Hot water - heated by the Eberspacher diesel heater and also the engine. - i check the fuel tank often!
Heating - Multi fuel stove & Eberspacher and a last electric fan heater for when on shoreline which I rarely use as it sends the shorline electricity wheel to overdrive mode

Electricity - only generated by the engine (well, somewhat indirectly) unless connected via a shoreline. This in terms of redundancy is one of the weakest links on our boat so i'm looking to add solar panels.

 

As for your Eberspacher being removed, that's a shame. Ours came with one but we later found out it's ancient (15 years old!) so will need regular servicing. They do get coked up and need regular servicing but they can be a real luxury when they work. I'd look at having one re-installed if I were in your shoes. Can also get used ones on ebay if budget is tight. Do you know if all the piping for the Eberspacher is still in place? If so you could just replace the unit though I don't know if you would need the same model.

Electrics don't sound too good, sounds like it's wired up poorly, probably worth getting a marine Electrician or two to take a look

 

spellings.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Armitage Shanks

[peterboat]

It is possible that the old eibersplutter was broken Richard and Simons was cream crackered after only a few years bad installation and poor servicing being cited as the cause. They had never got it to work so not really their fault so they scrapped it. Stoves either solid fuel or diesel are by the best way of heating boats but it is nice to be able to just press a button so shop around for the best unit and fit that

[chris667]

Congratulations on your new boat!

I would echo what the others say. Don't take the solid fuel stove out yet. You'd be surprised how much heat a little stove can put out in a confined space like a narrowboat, and they are the only properly reliable method of heating one.

Are you going to be on mains hookup, or out on the cut, or both?

[Bee]

A few thoughts, keep it simple, that applies particularly with electrics, our boat is completely 12 volt, the batts. charge from the engine and a solar panel, if we don't move for a few days and there is 240v we plug a lead line in and charge the batts with a battery charger. For charging phones, power tools, etc and running the telly we have a 300w(?) cheapo inverter from e bay. LED lights are frugal power consumers. Solar panels are good. You can spend £1000's on electrics but you don't need to. Keep the stove, in January when the Eberspecher fails (they consume electric and flat batteries are useless) you will still be warm, its the only reliable form of heating. I think, on balance, a professional might be advisable for electrics and gas. Good luck (You will meet a few with superiority issues, just pretend to listen, take no notice and just carry on)

[Alan de Enfield]

Answer to question 1

 

No - not really.

 

However - boat electrics, plumbing and gas systems are different to house systems and (for example) a 'domestic house' electrician would not have much idea about the requirements of boat electrics (flexible conductors versus solid conductors for example).

 

If you are looking to liveaboard then the gas system should be installed & tested by a gas fitter with the correct 'boat' qualifications. Gas installers have a 'ticket' (like a driving licence) that has different 'grades' of work they can do - such as :

Mains Gas

LPG - domestic

LPG - Caravans

LPG - Boats

Ensure that you use one whose 'licence' is endorsed for 'boat' installations.

[Chewbacka]

Hi - The fridge can be 12v or 240v powered from an inverter. People tend to have very strong views on this as well as toilets (pump out or cassette).

 

Back to fridges - a good inverter with sleep mode coupled to an mains powered A+++ fridge does not use much more power than a 12v fridge. I think about the same. The fridge is a lot cheaper, but you will need a good quality inverter. This could also power the washing machine.

 

I had a cheap inverter from ebay that worked well, but I would not leave it on whilst off the boat as I did not trust it. It did eventually fail with lots of smoke after a small overload.

 

So if you go down the mains fridge route you will need an inverter that is both efficient and safe/trustworthy. These are typically £1000 for a simple 2kW model.

So if you are going for a fair few 240v appliances, you will need a good inverter, and to me it makes sense to have a 240v fridge. However, if you are going for a simple boat, then a 12v fridge is the way to go.

 

Work out what you want before taking to the electrician and gas fitter. If you are looking at an extensive refit, it may be worth talking to a boat yard who can arrange the various trades etc.

 

But anything with boat in the title will cost a fair bit more than the domestic equivalent.

If you want an idea about costs of bits n bobs have a look at the Midland Chandlers web site - maybe not the cheapest, but good for an indication of what to expect cost wise.

http://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/

Edited June 1, 2016 by Chewbacka

[maywillis]

Thanks all for the pointers...very informative.

 

 

Its summer, can you muddle thru for a couple of months to learn about the boat then get it sorted ready for winter??

 

..............Dave

Hi Dave, the plan is to use the months where we aren't on it to do the essentials, which for us is heating, electrics and plumbing. That way when we move on we can fuss with the other stuff to make it pretty and homely.

 

 

Do you know if all the piping for the Eberspacher is still in place? If so you could just replace the unit though I don't know if you would need the same model.

 

I believe it was left intact to put an Eberspacher straight in, but i'm not sure what model it was previously and not really sure how to find that out?

 

It is possible that the old eibersplutter was broken Richard and Simons was cream crackered after only a few years bad installation and poor servicing being cited as the cause. They had never got it to work so not really their fault so they scrapped it. Stoves either solid fuel or diesel are by the best way of heating boats but it is nice to be able to just press a button so shop around for the best unit and fit that

What would I look for to research the 'just press a button' option?

 

Congratulations on your new boat!

I would echo what the others say. Don't take the solid fuel stove out yet. You'd be surprised how much heat a little stove can put out in a confined space like a narrowboat, and they are the only properly reliable method of heating one.

Are you going to be on mains hookup, or out on the cut, or both?

Thanks Chris! The stove is a pot belly and the flue pipe needs replacing either way. It is literally tiny...it wouldn't fit a stick in let alone a log and has no 'window' to see how the fuel is doing. I should have specified! We will be mainly shoreline and out and about for holidays and days out etc.

[cuthound]

Webasto, Eberspacher and Mikuni are popular diesel boilers for bozts, but need to be run fully loaded to prevent lots of premature maintenance.

 

Another option is a diesel drip feed stove. Like a log burner but runs on diesel. Examples include Lockgate, Kabola and Bubble. No regular maintenance except for occasional cleaning out of crud from the bottom of the stove and burner pot (easy, but dirty DIY).

[maywillis]

Webasto, Eberspacher and Mikuni are popular diesel boilers for bozts, but need to be run fully loaded to prevent lots of premature maintenance.

 

Another option is a diesel drip feed stove. Like a log burner but runs on diesel. Examples include Lockgate, Kabola and Bubble. No regular maintenance except for occasional cleaning out of crud from the bottom of the stove and burner pot (easy, but dirty DIY).

 

Thanks really interesting! If I were to get a drip feed stove with boiler for hot water I would presume I would still have to put the stove on in the summer to get hot water from it?

[Stewart Kirby]

First things first. Is this a boat you are going to live on all year round?,if not how often will you use it?

[cuthound]

Thanks really interesting! If I were to get a drip feed stove with boiler for hot water I would presume I would still have to put the stove on in the summer to get hot water from it?

Yes you can get drip feed stoves with a kind of back boiler to heat the hot water and/or radiators (actually a coil around the inside of the stove), and yess, the stove must be on to heat the hot water.

 

Depending on your type of boating, boats usually use:

 

The engine and a calorifier to make domestic hot water (best for those who cruise almost daily, or,

 

An gas powered instant hot water heater such a a Palama. These give constant hot water on demand, but may struggle to power a shower.

 

Both need a separate heat source for the boat, such as a Webasto dieselboiler, or stove.

[maywillis]

First things first. Is this a boat you are going to live on all year round?,if not how often will you use it?

We are planning to liveaboard hooked up at the marina for most of the year. So in order to have a hot shower when we haven't cruised for say a month... The only system in the summer would be something like a webasto or eberspacher?

 

Does this sound right :

 

An immersion for heating (granted not much) and hot water in summer

 

A corner bubble drip diesel stove with back boiler for winter

 

Or have I hit upon the most costly way of doing things?

[Alan de Enfield]

We are planning to liveaboard hooked up at the marina for most of the year. So in order to have a hot shower when we haven't cruised for say a month... The only system in the summer would be something like a webasto or eberspacher?

 

Does this sound right :

 

An immersion for heating (granted not much) and hot water in summer

 

A corner bubble drip diesel stove with back boiler for winter

 

Or have I hit upon the most costly way of doing things?

 

Everyone will have their own preferences, but for me it is :

 

When landline (220v) is available.

1) Immersion heater for hot water (showers, washing pots etc)

2) Electric heaters for 'warming up' on cold evenings (too expensive to run all the time)

3) Solid fuel stove which has a back boiler for hot water AND central heating (but that the heating can be turned off

4) Eberspacher diesel heater providing central heating (which can be turned off) and hot water (showers, pots etc)

 

When out cruising

1) Running the engine whilst cruising will produce hot water for showers, pots etc.

2) Eberspacher diesel heater providing central heating (which can be turned off) and hot water (showers, pots etc)

3) Solid fuel stove which has a back boiler for hot water AND central heating (but that the heating can be turned off

 

Solid fuel (or even diesel powered) 'fires' are fine but you are generating heat into the cabin to get hot water - fine on a Winters day, but do you really want to heat up the cabin in the middle of Summer.

 

Have a solid fuel fire to 'look at' and use in Winter but have a Eberspacher (or similar) for the rest of the year.

[LEO]

We are planning to liveaboard hooked up at the marina for most of the year. So in order to have a hot shower when we haven't cruised for say a month... The only system in the summer would be something like a webasto or eberspacher?

 

Does this sound right :

 

An immersion for heating (granted not much) and hot water in summer

 

A corner bubble drip diesel stove with back boiler for winter

 

Or have I hit upon the most costly way of doing things?

 

Hi,

 

You will get no space heating from an immersion heater....

 

On my boat, I have a twin coil hot water tank, with fitted 1Kw immersion heater.

 

A Kabola OD4 drip feed stove with back boiler for heating hot water and one rad, with a dedicated 50 gallon oil tank. With careful adjustment no electrical power is needed as a thermo syphon can be set up.

 

Pipes from the engine to provide piping hot water when engine running (under load preferably).

 

This works well, the Kabola runs happily, 24/7 for about 3 weeks before it needs a good, careful clean.

 

Warm boat to come back to, hot water, no lugging of coal sacks or ash to clear.

 

I also have a back up s/f range in the BC, but this is rarely lit.

 

Hope this helps - it incorporates the KISS principle of designing things.

 

L

[chris667]

 

Thanks Chris! The stove is a pot belly and the flue pipe needs replacing either way. It is literally tiny...it wouldn't fit a stick in let alone a log and has no 'window' to see how the fuel is doing. I should have specified! We will be mainly shoreline and out and about for holidays and days out etc.

In that case, I suggest an immersion element for shoreline, along with a couple of fan heaters. You will get change from £100.?

 

For trips out a calorifier, along with a stove, is by far the least trouble. I hope it's not true, but you may find you need the money for something else on the boat in the future.

[Stewart Kirby]

We are planning to liveaboard hooked up at the marina for most of the year. So in order to have a hot shower when we haven't cruised for say a month... The only system in the summer would besomething like a webasto or eberspacher?

Does this sound right :

An immersion for heating (granted not much) and hot water in summer

A corner bubble drip diesel stove with back boiler for winter

Or have I hit upon the most costly way of doing things?

I would have an electric immersion heater for hot water when hooked up to shore power, you won't disturb your neighbours running the engine to get hot water at your mooring. We used to have a Kabola Deisel stove (without a back boiler or rads) but on a 45ft boat even running it on the minimum setting it was sometimes too warm in the saloon where it was placed but then too cool in the bedroom at the back of the boat. Obviously a back boiler and rad would warm up the bedroom and provide hot water but personally I would go for something more controllable because it's a pain shutting down the diesel stove and then relighting it. I have no experience of Mikunis or Erbspachers but if they are correctly installed they seem to offer more control than a diesel stove or solid fuel stove. On our first boat I can remember mooring at Stanley Ferry at Xmas running the solid fuel stove with all the windows and doors open whilst it was snowing. Something with a timer would be good so you can get up in the morning to a warm boat rather than leaping out of bed, lighting the stove then retreating to bed until it's warm enough to get up.

[dmr]

Almost all liveaboard boats use a solid multi-fuel (wood and coal) stove as their main source of heating. They need cleaning out at least once per day and coal is messy and heavy to lift and store, so there must be another really good reason why they are so popular!.

 

.................Dave

[Stewart Kirby]

Almost all liveaboard boats use a solid multi-fuel (wood and coal) stove as their main source of heating. They need cleaning out at least once per day and coal is messy and heavy to lift and store, so there must be another really good reason why they are so popular!.

 

.................Dave

Relatively cheap and if you don't mind lugging sacks around and having grunge run down your chimney they're OK. Low tech as well as sort of "traditional". I don't mind them. Having a diesel stove with its own separate tank can also save you money. We had a diesel tank of 88 litres For the engine and for some reason the previous owner who installed the diesel stove had a separate tank of 120 litres for the stove. I found I needed to fill the stove tank, at a lower rate of duty much more often than I had to fill the engine tank.

[David Mack]

Relatively cheap and if you don't mind lugging sacks around and having grunge run down your chimney they're OK. Low tech as well as sort of "traditional". I don't mind them. Having a diesel stove with its own separate tank can also save you money. We had a diesel tank of 88 litres For the engine and for some reason the previous owner who installed the diesel stove had a separate tank of 120 litres for the stove. I found I needed to fill the stove tank, at a lower rate of duty much more often than I had to fill the engine tank.

If you are correctly declaring your percentage propulsion/non propulsion split it shouldn't make any difference costwise whether you have a single or split tanks.

[Dave_P]

Coming late to this thread (as usual) but here's my take:

 

As a general rule I like to have at least two ways of getting electric, hot water and heat on a boat. Boat's go wrong more often than houses and back-up options are important.

 

1. Electrics:

 

It sounds as though your system has had some DIY tinkering.

 

You ought to find a decent boat electrician to look it over and remedy things. You intended marina may be able to help. A good system should have a mix of 12v and 240v for your needs. The 12v should be able to run all your essentials when cruising, including lights and pumps (and maybe fridge/TV?). The 12v system should also connect to an inverter which will then supply 240v to all your 3 pin sockets. The inverter needs to be powerful enough for your needs, but remember that high drain appliances will kill your batteries pretty quick. My highest power appliance is my vacuum cleaner which is 1400w, so I have a 2000w inverter to allow to run easily. I only run the vaccuum cleaner for about 5 minutes and I have the engine running at the same time to keep the batteries topped up as I go.

 

FYI I have a 12v fridge but a 240v TV. It works for me but a 12v TV might be better if you use it a lot.

 

When you're connected to a landline, you should have a changeover switch on your boat to allow all the 3 pin sockets to run straight off the mains. This is like being in a house. When you connect to a landline, you can then turn on the immersion in your calorifier (if you have one) and also switch on your battery charger to keep your batteries topped up for the 12v things which will still be drawing power (lights, pumps etc.) I'd recommend a decent 3-stage charge as this will have a 'float' setting which means the batteries will receive a trickle charge when full and not over-cook themselves.

 

If you're going to cruise a fair bit, it's generally reckoned that you need at least 3 leisure batteries of about 110 amp hours each (and a separate starter battery).

 

As for charging the batteries, think about the 2 ways which I mentioned at the top. When in the marina, you have the landline and the engine for charging. When away from the marina you lose the landline so replace it will either a solar system or a portable generator. If you intend to cruise more in the summer, then solar is the way to go. If in the winter, the genny is the better option.

 

2. Heating:

 

As others have said, solid fuel stoves are by far the most popular and can be fitted with a back boiler to heat radiators and a water tank. They aren't completely free from problems though. The front glass could break, rendering it unusable. The stove itself could crack or the flue could come loose. This all create a serious carbon monoxide risk. Get two CO detectors of two different makes and fit them correctly in your boat. They could save your life. Don't worry too much though! Stoves are generally trouble free.

 

Think about the 2 ways thing I mentioned earlier though. You need options. In the marina you can always plug in an electric heater if needed. Out cruising this isn't an option. So what will you do if your stove breaks? I have an Alde Gas Boiler which are often critisized for being expensive to run. I use mine as a back up option though and am very glad it's there. Others have diesel systems made by Webasto, Eber etc.

 

3. Hot water:

 

When I'm on landline I use the immersion exclusively but could still fall back on the engine or Alde if needed. This gives me the choices I need. You say you don't want to run your engine for hot water, and I'd agree. It's an expensive and wasteful way of doing things. When I'm not on the landline, I use the Alde for an hour or so and it heats my calorifier up nicely. The other option would be an instant water boiler (Paloma, Morco or Rinnai). I've read on here that they don't get all that warm and the flow rate is a bit low. However the people I've known who have them have all said they're great, so I can't say really. When my calorifier exploded (yes, really!) a few years back, I looked at going for an instant heater but decided against it. The reason is the same as I've said earlier. If it goes wrong, you have no back up option. Perhaps a calorifier and an instant heater would bean idea but it seems like overkill to me.

 

 

I hope this gives you some food for thought.

[maywillis]

Just want to say thanks for everything. Slowly understanding that there is simply no black and white answers and more personal preference (and how much money you want to spend!). Will update on what we go for...discussions to come!

[Bee]

Potbelly stove you have sounds like a Clarke, not my first choice, had a similar thing and it leaked air and it couldn't be turned down properly.

[koukouvagia]

 

Thanks really interesting! If I were to get a drip feed stove with boiler for hot water I would presume I would still have to put the stove on in the summer to get hot water from it?

I'm a great fan of this type of stove. When I first fitted the boat out I put in far too big a calorifier and it would take a couple of hours to heat up. I've now put in a much smaller one. The stove needs to be on for only half an hour. This provides plenty of hot water for a couple of showers and the usual domestic chores.

The trick is to arrange the plumbing so that the radiators are not heated in summer and all the heat goes into the calorifier.