Diesel for the Beginner?

[ditchcrawler]

Sorry but don,nt see how this could have been a "fresh tankful of diesel" then.

You just add 100 lts of fresh diesel to 20 lts of water, easy really

[NBDensie]

I wouldnt be too paranoid about diesel bug or about diesel quality in general. We have never had diesel bug in some 10 years boating, no-one I know has ever mentioned having it. One boatyard mechanic I talked to said he had only seen it once in perhaps 30 years. Our diesel comes from mainstream marinas and boatyards we happen to be passing. There has never been any evidence that it wasnt of the appropriate quality. The fuel filters have always been found to be clean when changed and the agglomerator separates virtually no water. We have never added anything to our fuel tank.

 

So just take sensible precautions. Make sure your fuel cap has a decent seal and the tank appears to be in good condition. Fill up with fuel if you arent going to use the boat for a few months.. Avoid filling up anywhere that looks run down or amateurish.

[OldGoat]

Much as I have respect for 'the Edwards' (ASAP) Their price for a standard filter block is 'well OTT'

Have a look at SSL diesel parts:-

 

http://www.ssldieselparts.co.uk/double-filter-assembly-dfa02-p-884.html

 

The one above is the ultimate - on the right a filter plus a deep bowl to catch the crud, on the left a plain filter - perhaps with a finer filter to catch anything left over.

I f I had to start again I might fit one of those.

For most folks on the canal system a single filter would suffice:-

http://www.ssldieselparts.co.uk/filter-assembly-sfa8-p-713.html

 

Yes, I have had the bug - twice.

once with water getting in through the breather (I assume)

the second with dodgy fuel (identified)

 

Now I dip the fuel twice a year, change the filter at the same time and use Fuel Set - 'just in case'

[nb Innisfree]

Sorry but don,nt see how this could have been a "fresh tankful of diesel" then.

Tank low, with large amount of water in it, add a large dollop of Fuelset, fill tank with fresh diesel, result: 150+ litres of spoilt diesel.

[ditchcrawler]

Much as I have respect for 'the Edwards' (ASAP) Their price for a standard filter block is 'well OTT'

Have a look at SSL diesel parts:-

 

http://www.ssldieselparts.co.uk/double-filter-assembly-dfa02-p-884.html

 

The one above is the ultimate - on the right a filter plus a deep bowl to catch the crud, on the left a plain filter - perhaps with a finer filter to catch anything left over.

I f I had to start again I might fit one of those.

For most folks on the canal system a single filter would suffice:-

http://www.ssldieselparts.co.uk/filter-assembly-sfa8-p-713.html

 

Yes, I have had the bug - twice.

once with water getting in through the breather (I assume)

the second with dodgy fuel (identified)

 

Now I dip the fuel twice a year, change the filter at the same time and use Fuel Set - 'just in case'

I would suggest that when fitting new filters you use Delphi and not an equivalent.

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[Tony Brooks]

So would I but I would be happy with any reputable make of pocket filter (like the Delphi one) rather than a pleated filter (like the coopers one).

Edited November 14, 2015 by Tony Brooks

[GreyLady]

Those should fail the BSS because of the plastic drain taps. They also have small sediment bowls and are agglomerators, not sedimentors. I would advise one of each with deeper bowls. Sedimentors remove the larger chunks of dirt and water with out using a filter so are less likely to clog. The agglomerator removes the last 20% of water that will be in finely divided droplets.

 

Image & supplier of CAV sedimentor http://www.asap-supplies.com/marine/cav-type-filters-and-elements/cav-type-fuel-separator-302005

 

Thanks Tony for your help its really appreciated.

 

Can I ask what brand you would recomend as the best anti bug additive to diesel ?

[14skipper]

Tank low, with large amount of water in it, add a large dollop of Fuelset, fill tank with fresh diesel, result: 150+ litres of spoilt diesel.

why if the tank is low and with a large amount of water in it ,would you fill it with fresh diesel before taking the water out ?

[blackrose]

I inherited a large bottle of Fuelset when we bought DQ and have been using that.

 

Does anyone know how this performs at preventing diesel bug?

 

Also is it OK to add Marine 16 to fuel already treated with Fuelset?

 

Fuelset won't do any harm. As far as I can remember from the PBO tests (which are posted/pinned in the archives somewhere), Fuelset was ok for emulsifying water in the fuel but not much good as a biocide, so it doesn't do much to kill bugs if they are there, it just helps to prevent the conditions for their growth.

[blackrose]

Don't on any account add Fuelset if you suspect water is all ready present in the tank, a friend of mine did just that not realising that a considerable amount of water was already in the tank. It rendered a fresh tankful of diesel useless as there was no way of separating diesel and water. There's a limit to how much water in diesel an engine can tolerate.

 

There's also a limit to the ratio of water to fuel that Fuelset can emulsify. Of course that could be greater than the amount of water contaminated fuel that the engine can tolerate, but I'd be surprised if it is.

[Richard10002]

I would have said that diesel is likely to be one of the least of your concerns, although it is handy to have some knowledge of how it works. Obviously, if it goes wrong, it can be a serious problem.

 

For liveaboard I think that producing electrical power is one of the biggest issues, (and regularly discussed here).

[rjasmith]

 

Or when you are having a new boat built or work on the tank carried out INSIST that a female threaded pipe stub is fitted with a male cap to close it. Not as atheistically pleasing but water can not run uphill through the threads.

 

Also if your upper rudder bearing is held down with bolts or not welded in studs take steps to seal the threads when you work on it.

 

Tony, did you really mean this? Surely the other way round ie a pipe stub sticking up with a (female) threaded cap to close it.

 

(Also not sure why this would be less pleasing to those having no particular religious faith - however I know what you meant to say and I've managed to clean all the spilt coffee off my keyboard now!!).

 

On a more serious point - a recent change to the RCD ISO standard (ISO 21487 2012 + A1 2014 dated December 2014, see para 4.3.10) covering fuel tank design now requires removable inspection hatches to be fitted. I assume it's to help with cleaning the tank in case of severe fuel contamination/bug etc. Quite how these are supposed to be implemented in a typical Nb "stern wraparound" tank I'm not sure. 3 hatches perhaps? Does anyone have these on a recently built boat?

 

Richard

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks Tony for your help its really appreciated.

 

Can I ask what brand you would recomend as the best anti bug additive to diesel ?

 

I do not recommend unless I have tested stuff or know it to be useful but see post 13 for what I do. For this time of year I would choose Marine 16 Diesel Fuel Complete BUT drain any water from the bottom of the tank in some way in the early spring.

[Hair Bear Bunch]

A reliable source around the local farms tells me that as of next year the amount of bio in diesel both red and white is to be doubled, and as a result will only have a storage life of around 3 months. Apparently it goes bad in the same way petrol does. So filling the tank over winter it goes off, leave it empty fills with condensation - your choice.

I don't understand the problem with a glass filter bowl though.

[Tony Brooks]

 

Tony, did you really mean this? Surely the other way round ie a pipe stub sticking up with a (female) threaded cap to close it.

 

(Also not sure why this would be less pleasing to those having no particular religious faith - however I know what you meant to say and I've managed to clean all the spilt coffee off my keyboard now!!).

 

On a more serious point - a recent change to the RCD ISO standard (ISO 21487 2012 + A1 2014 dated December 2014, see para 4.3.10) covering fuel tank design now requires removable inspection hatches to be fitted. I assume it's to help with cleaning the tank in case of severe fuel contamination/bug etc. Quite how these are supposed to be implemented in a typical Nb "stern wraparound" tank I'm not sure. 3 hatches perhaps? Does anyone have these on a recently built boat?

 

Richard

 

Well spotted - Brain fart I am afraid.

[GreyLady]

I do not recommend unless I have tested stuff or know it to be useful but see post 13 for what I do. For this time of year I would choose Marine 16 Diesel Fuel Complete BUT drain any water from the bottom of the tank in some way in the early spring.

 

Thanks Tony.

[nebulae]

We have always used CAV filter units salvaged from Landrovers and old tractors. The plastic drain plugs to drain water. From memory,Midland Chandlers sell metal replacements.

[GreyLady]

We have always used CAV filter units salvaged from Landrovers and old tractors. The plastic drain plugs to drain water. From memory,Midland Chandlers sell metal replacements.

they are good filters but like tony said the standard plugs wont pass BSS, thanks nebulae all the help on this thread ads up.

[Graham Davis]

A reliable source around the local farms tells me that as of next year the amount of bio in diesel both red and white is to be doubled, and as a result will only have a storage life of around 3 months. Apparently it goes bad in the same way petrol does. So filling the tank over winter it goes off, leave it empty fills with condensation - your choice.

I don't understand the problem with a glass filter bowl though.

 

Currently all diesel contains 5% bio. There was a proposal to increase this eventually to 11% across the EU but this has now been shelved, mostly after pressure from the vehicle manufacturers, as many current engines will not work effectively with it at that level. There is now pressure to bring it to a 7% level but this is also being fought against.

[GreyLady]

Ive lost my confidence with engines and fuel I guess once I get a boat in front of me it will all fall into place.

 

this forum is brilliant and their some good eggs, no lampooning hehe.

[Theo]

 

Or when you are having a new boat built or work on the tank carried out INSIST that a female threaded pipe stub is fitted with a male cap to close it. Not as atheistically pleasing but water can not run uphill through the threads.

 

Also if your upper rudder bearing is held down with bolts or not welded in studs take steps to seal the threads when you work on it.

Not wishing to be indelicate but don't you mean the other way around. Pipe welded to the top of the tank and threaded externally. Cap threded internally fits over the pipe stub and screws down.

 

I think that you might have got your males and females confused.

 

That quite makes me blush!

 

N

[nb Innisfree]

why if the tank is low and with a large amount of water in it ,would you fill it with fresh diesel before taking the water out ?

Because you're not aware of the water?

 

ETA: In my example it was a new diy build and it had been wrongly assumed that no rainwater had entered the fuel tank.

Edited November 14, 2015 by nb Innisfree

[Tony Brooks]

 

Currently all diesel contains 5% bio. There was a proposal to increase this eventually to 11% across the EU but this has now been shelved, mostly after pressure from the vehicle manufacturers, as many current engines will not work effectively with it at that level. There is now pressure to bring it to a 7% level but this is also being fought against.

 

Unless you can quote a definitive source for that I must disagree. My information is that it was the oil companies who decided to simply dye DERV (road diesel) red when low sulphur became mandatory but because of a major outcry from non-road users some suppliers can now supply FAME free red diesel.

 

I also understand that the 5% relates to the average bio-fuel content across all fuels supplied for road use but as bio-ethanol is more expensive than FAME many companies prefer to load all the bio onto DERV.

Not wishing to be indelicate but don't you mean the other way around. Pipe welded to the top of the tank and threaded externally. Cap threded internally fits over the pipe stub and screws down.

 

I think that you might have got your males and females confused.

 

That quite makes me blush!

 

N

 

See post 40 - brain fart on my part

[Hair Bear Bunch]

 

Unless you can quote a definitive source for that I must disagree. My information is that it was the oil companies who decided to simply dye DERV (road diesel) red when low sulphur became mandatory but because of a major outcry from non-road users some suppliers can now supply FAME free red diesel.

 

I also understand that the 5% relates to the average bio-fuel content across all fuels supplied for road use but as bio-ethanol is more expensive than FAME many companies prefer to load all the bio onto DERV.

 

See post 40 - brain fart on my part

Just to clarify, DERV is white diesel and can be used in all applications. Red diesel aka Gas Oil is dyed red and contains chemical markers as it is taxed at a lower rate and it's use applications are limited.

[OldGoat]

Just to clarify, DERV is white diesel and can be used in all applications. Red diesel aka Gas Oil is dyed red and contains chemical markers as it is taxed at a lower rate and it's use applications are limited.

Exactly -

All / most fuel at the retail level is transferred by pipeline from the refinery (do we have an UK refineries left ??) and major storage depots to distribution depots. For specialist low volume fuels, it's not practicable to distribute by pipeline, so much so that 'unmarked gas oil' aka DERV is marked at the depot for any customer deliveries of MGO - 'Red'

 

SO if any Fame free fuel is available I suggest it's limited to supplies to a large user who has obtained dispensation and who has large storage tanks as well.