Bent rudder

[manxmike]

Having loaned my boat to a couple of friends for a week, I went to inspect this weekend, making sure everything was turned off etc. Imagine my surprise to find the rudder appears to be bent. The visible top edge is now at an angle of about 15 to 20 degrees from vertical.

My problem is that I can't see if the whole rudder is bent, or just the top edge.

The other problem is that there is no obvious way I can see to remove the swan neck to enable me to drop the rudder (with a rope through the hole at the top!)

The hull is a 1989 Liverpool Boat Company trad stern. Is there a hidden bolt? Does the swan neck just fit on by friction?

Any help would be most welcome.

 

nb - The boat still steers, the tiller is now off centre to allow the boat to steer straight. The rudder has no more play than before the bending. Would it be worth waiting until the next time I have the hull blacked to get a good look?

[manxmike]

Did a bit of a search on google and found a comment that Liverpool often used a "drop through" arrangement, the swan neck (Ram head?) and rudder stem were all one piece, the rudder attached by three or four bolts. The recommendation being that unless you have aqualungs etc the boat needs to be out of the water!

Is this likely to be correct?

[cotswoldsman]

Ah happened to me a few years ago on my Liverpool Boat and the bad news is it had to be taken out of the water I did carry on using it at an angle as it was due for blacking that year. In my case the drop through (if that is what it is called) was welded to the bottom. Once it was freed it was an easy job to repair.

[Timleech]

Yes, the standard Liverpool Boats arrangement is that the rudder post drops through a tube which is integral to the rudder blade.
There is a central 'pinch' bolt, with a through bolt above and below this.
The arrangement will work loose, sooner or later, so owners often opt to have a bit of weld added to stop this.
If no welding has been done, you do have a reasonable chance - if you have long enough arms or don't mind getting into the canal - of dismantling without docking.

 

Tim

[Scholar Gypsy]

just checking, are you sure the pin at the bottom has not lifted out of the cup in the skeg? I think not, but my boat steers surprisingly well (if off centre) when this happens ...

[Stilllearning]

Yes, the standard Liverpool Boats arrangement is that the rudder post drops through a tube which is integral to the rudder blade.

There is a central 'pinch' bolt, with a through bolt above and below this.

The arrangement will work loose, sooner or later, so owners often opt to have a bit of weld added to stop this.

If no welding has been done, you do have a reasonable chance - if you have long enough arms or don't mind getting into the canal - of dismantling without docking.

 

Tim

I was going to suggest you had a good look down the weedhatch to see what it all felt like down the bottom end of the rudder post. There might well be a loose bolt, if you are lucky. If you do try to tighten up things under water, do remember to tie string onto the spanner, so you don't lose it when it inevitably slips out of your hand, and do wash your hands and arms thoroughly after.

[manxmike]

Good suggestions all, many thanks.

It does rather look as if Im going to have to jump in the canal - better than falling in I suppose - and have a feel around.

I'll try the weed hatch first, and excellent advice over the string on the spanner!

I don't think it's just a case of things working loose, there doesnt appear to be any more play in the steering than was already there.

Having spoken to my friends who borrowed the boat they say that they left the boat moored at Bunbury while they went for a wander and when they returned it was fairly evident that the boat had been walloped by someone - that could have been the cause I suppose.

They have assured me they didn't hit anything and I believe them.

[DHutch]

Starting point has got to be to run boat hook down it and see what the bit you can't see feels like.

- bent?

- out of the bottom bearing/cup?

- totally fine?

 

Could be they just got it under a lock gate a bit or the like.

 

 

Daniel

[IanM]

This is the rudder or our 1998 Liverpool boat if it helps you picture what goes on under the waterline. Looks to me like its bolted through.

 

Edited May 25, 2015 by IanM

[Timleech]

This is the rudder or our 1998 Liverpool boat if it helps you picture what goes on under the waterline. Looks to me like its bolted through.

 

 

As per my description, two through bolts and a pich bolt between them. Looks as though there could be some weld around the bottom?

 

Tim

[cotswoldsman]

 

As per my description, two through bolts and a pich bolt between them. Looks as though there could be some weld around the bottom?

 

Tim

Yup and it was the weld at the bottom that was the problem with mine. Had to be cut and then re welded

[ditchcrawler]

just checking, are you sure the pin at the bottom has not lifted out of the cup in the skeg? I think not, but my boat steers surprisingly well (if off centre) when this happens ...

I put my first one back today, a Black Prince Hire boat, Thank goodness they don't have rudders like Hudson boats, it was easy to lift and I hit lucky after a few attempts.

[manxmike]

Excellent photo IanM, thanks. Now I have an idea of what I might be looking at.

 

Scholar Gypsy - if the pin has lifted out of the cup would the swan neck (ram head) not cant over slightly?

From your comment it has happened to your boat - what were the symptoms?

 

Thanks to all for your help.

[Scholar Gypsy]

 

 

Scholar Gypsy - if the pin has lifted out of the cup would the swan neck (ram head) not cant over slightly?

From your comment it has happened to your boat - what were the symptoms?

 

 

 

Yes, that's correct.

 

All boats will vary, but on mine the steering works reasonably OK although normally you won't be able to get the rudder right over in one direction (depending on which side the pin has gone off the skeg).

 

Given your description, I think it is unlikely that this is what has happened to you, I am afraid.

[manxmike]

"Given your description, I think it is unlikely that this is what has happened to you, I am afraid."

 

I think you're right, the tiller is still upright and there doesn't seem to be any restriction to movement in either direction.

 

It's in the water for me unfortunately!

[jake_crew]

Have your friends "remembered" what happened yet ?

 

Perhaps that trifling impact when they were washed back against the bottom gates by someone opening a top paddle too fast ?

[PhilR]

Have your friends "remembered" what happened yet ?

 

Perhaps that trifling impact when they were washed back against the bottom gates by someone opening a top paddle too fast ?

 

The friends have remembered this:

 

*Having spoken to my friends who borrowed the boat they say that they left the boat moored at Bunbury while they went for a wander and when they returned it was fairly evident that the boat had been walloped by someone - that could have been the cause I suppose.

They have assured me they didn't hit anything and I believe them.*

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

The friends have remembered this:

 

*Having spoken to my friends who borrowed the boat they say that they left the boat moored at Bunbury while they went for a wander and when they returned it was fairly evident that the boat had been walloped by someone - that could have been the cause I suppose.

They have assured me they didn't hit anything and I believe them.*

Just as a point of interest, if there is actual evidence of the boat being hit (or even if your friend remembered having caught a cill somewhere) it is likely that such damage would be covered by your boat insurance. Back in 2013 I caught my rudder on the cill at Watford Locks and bent the rudder arm, when I contacted the insurers they confirmed that I was covered for such damage. As it eventually turned out I managed to get it (properly) repaired for slightly less than the excess on the insurance (£250)so didn't actually submit a claim, but if it is necessary to get the boat out of the water, given the costs involved, (I repaired mine by getting in the canal to recover the rudder blade) an insurance claim may be worthwhile.

[Lisapas]

On 25/05/2015 at 14:24, IanM said:

This is the rudder or our 1998 Liverpool boat if it helps you picture what goes on under the waterline. Looks to me like its bolted through.

 

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb84/imulford/2014-09-01164742_zps0b953630.jpg

Hi @IanM I am having a similar issue with the tiller of my narrowboat that was bent this summer, also built by Liverpool Boats. You used to have a lovely diagram of the rudder of your boat here that I remember seeing a few months back, but the image isn't available anymore. Would you have saved a copy of it somewhere that you could share again? Thank you so much, Lisa

[IanM]

1 hour ago, Lisapas said:

Hi @IanM I am having a similar issue with the tiller of my narrowboat that was bent this summer, also built by Liverpool Boats. You used to have a lovely diagram of the rudder of your boat here that I remember seeing a few months back, but the image isn't available anymore. Would you have saved a copy of it somewhere that you could share again? Thank you so much, Lisa

The picture would have disappeared when I ditched Photobucket a few years back when they wanted to charge hundreds of pounds a year so not sure how you would have seen it a few months ago.
 

Anyway, I’ll see if I’ve got it anywhere but can’t promise anything. 

[Bod]

@Lisapas if you wade through this topic you may find what you are looking for.

Beware there is a lot of off topic content, skip through till you see photos, could be a good idea.

Bod.

 

[LadyG]

I had four months to think about my rudder problem.

The original design was a lash up. 

The original design had no weak link, so, when an irresistable force met an immovable object, something had to give. 

In the end I had a re design, there is now a taper at top of rudder stock. Conventional technology. 

The boat had to come out of water. It was not straightforward as the rudder stock did not immediately poke out through the top of ellum. 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by LadyG

[Tracy D'arth]

Liverpool hulls have a split rudder shaft with the rudder blade in the split with a couple of bolts through both. They often come loose. Many have been welded in situ which poses problems when you want the shaft out!

[bizzard]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Liverpool hulls have a split rudder shaft with the rudder blade in the split with a couple of bolts through both. They often come loose. Many have been welded in situ which poses problems when you want the shaft out!

That's funny, all the liverpool boats including widebeams I've worked on had a tube welded in between the balance part and the trailing part of the rudder which the stock passes through to the skeg cup and secured by a  peg bolt and through nut and bolt. Harborough Marine and some others had a split at the bottom of the shorter stock into wiich the rudder blade was held by nuts and bolts with a stub welded  to the bottom to fit into the skeg cup. I don't remember any of those coming loose.  The Liverpool boat method certain;ly did when the peg location bold let go and the through bolt would gradually wear and the play got more and more. often caused by the boat reversing into or too close to the bank and the driver trying to force the tiller over against the rudder stuck against the bank.

[Lisapas]

3 hours ago, IanM said:

The picture would have disappeared when I ditched Photobucket a few years back when they wanted to charge hundreds of pounds a year so not sure how you would have seen it a few months ago.
 

Anyway, I’ll see if I’ve got it anywhere but can’t promise anything. 

I’m not sure, but I remember it, was it not a drawing? Maybe I’m mistaken and it was elsewhere. If you find it though that’d be super helpful. No worries otherwise. Thank you Ian 🙏

Edited March 28, 2022 by Lisapas