Ronalan Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Is there any reason we shouldn't be using a domestic cooker converted to lpg on our wide beam? Flavel specifically mentions it won't guarantee their cooker mlb51nds if used on boats (even mentions houseboats). Rona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyboy Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) As long as it has flame failure devices on all the burners it should be ok. The gas supply pipework must be large enough to supply the cooker, a long run will need larger pipework. These are a requirement for BSS. Edited May 20, 2015 by Flyboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 It seems relatively common for manufacturers to refuse to guarantee appliances for use in boats. I think it is mostly due to a lack of knowledge and understanding of the environment on a boat - they probably envisage sea water crashing over the cooker or something! That said I suppose an unloved, underused and damp boat will be a tougher environment for an appliance than the average home. However a live aboard inland boat is surely much the same as the average kitchen. Certainly no problem to use your cooker provided it has the FFD / FSD on all burners as previously mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinl Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 If you have a cooker you want to convert then (if possible) buy an LPG conversion kit but my advice would be get a proper qualified gas engineer to do it. If you're looking for a new cooker then there are plenty out there, using LPG cookers in areas with no mains gas is becoming very popular as it's much cheaper. John Lewis have a nice on (link below) £289 with free delivery and a JKL 2 year guarantee. Personally I'd go one set up for LPG instead of converting there's less to go wrong like the parts aren't available, don't fit, cost of an engineer... K http://www.johnlewis.com/indesit-it50lw-gas-cooker-lpg-white/p1491312 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Brooks Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 If this is a new boat being built to the RCD best make sure such cookers are CE marked as suitable for the intended use. I bet a domestic one will not be. Otherwise if it meets the BSS the only other thing to worry about are any insurance implications. I would say there should not be any but but in the event of a claim it might just be enough for the company to void your cover. This would be harder for them if it was installed and certificated by a Gas Safe bob endorsed for LPG & boats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronalan Posted May 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Thanks all. That's very helpful. My partner is a mechanic and has worked for a caravan company for a while, so is competent to do a conversion if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Thanks all. That's very helpful. My partner is a mechanic and has worked for a caravan company for a while, so is competent to do a conversion if necessary. I think that with a liveaboard it is not a case of being 'competent' the installer has to be 'qualified' (have both LPG and 'boat' on their 'ticket' and install it to GSIUR. If you use anyone 'unqualified' (or do not get it tested and certified by a qualified person) then your insurance will certainly be void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEngo Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Does it have the necessary for BSS flame supervision devices fitted? If it does then it will be OK, provided your ventilation and gas pipe size are adequate for it's gas input rating- see the plate on the cooker for rating and the BSS guide for vent needs. Pipe size is more difficult and you really need the BS or Calor guide to sort it out. Half-inch pipe is almost certainly big enough and 3/8 is probably a bit small, maybe, but not deffo too small. Flavel probably are worried about damp, inadequate ventilation and poor installation pracctices on boats so are covering their rear. N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) I think that with a liveaboard it is not a case of being 'competent' the installer has to be 'qualified' (have both LPG and 'boat' on their 'ticket' and install it to GSIUR. If you use anyone 'unqualified' (or do not get it tested and certified by a qualified person) then your insurance will certainly be void.Sorry but this is completely untrue and its disappointing to find this myth once again being propagated after all the attention it has had in this forum. That is, provided the "partner" is doing it for love and not for money. According to the law he merely has to be competent, same with doing gas work on your own house. If you disagree then as a start, kindly cite the paragraph in the OP's insurance policy that supports your view. Edited May 20, 2015 by nicknorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcol Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Does it have the necessary for BSS flame supervision devices fitted? If it does then it will be OK, provided your ventilation and gas pipe size are adequate for it's gas input rating- see the plate on the cooker for rating and the BSS guide for vent needs. Pipe size is more difficult and you really need the BS or Calor guide to sort it out. Half-inch pipe is almost certainly big enough and 3/8 is probably a bit small, maybe, but not deffo too small. Flavel probably are worried about damp, inadequate ventilation and poor installation pracctices on boats so are covering their rear. N[/quote Agree most normal size hobs can be converted it's just the jets, or you can eBay log ovens and cookers. Lots on their, full size etc. But as BEngo says. Make sure it has failure device, if not it fail BSS, and not safe in boat. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottle Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Just an aside most companies will not guarantee or say there equipment is not suitable for 'boats' as there are usually more stringent tests that have to be carried out to comply and the market is too small. Different fuel, we were looking at fitting an electric hob and they came up with the excuse that their hobs would not work on a generator. They gave me lots of figures about voltage variation etc but I proved that my generator was 'cleaner' than that legally allowed from the 'mains'. Then they said that if it went wrong their engineers would be unable to fix it as they would not be insured for working on a boat. Otherwise as post#2 and just to add the flame failure must be on all burners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) Thanks all. That's very helpful. My partner is a mechanic and has worked for a caravan company for a while, so is competent to do a conversion if necessary. I'm sure Gas Safe Register will be interested to hear your news that the qualifications deeming a person competent to convert gas cookers have now been relaxed! But seriously, although the chances of it being a problem are vanishingly small, a 'competent person' is required if the cooker is to be installed in a residence. One way of proving competence is to hold the relevant ACS exam passes for Core Gas Safety, Cookers, and LPG on Boats. Should things go seriously belly-up I doubt a court would accept 'worked for a caravan company for a while' as proof of competence. And no I'm not fishing for the work Another reason the plan may not work is that almost all domestic cookers nowadays are 600mm deep front to back - deeper than most narrowboat galley worktops. But hang on, you have a widebeam so no problem there then. MtB Edited May 20, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 I'm sure Gas Safe Register will be interested to hear your news that the qualifications deeming a person competent to convert gas cookers have now been relaxed! But seriously, although the chances of it being a problem are vanishingly small, a 'competent person' is required if the cooker is to be installed in a residence. One way of proving competence is to hold the relevant ACS exam passes for Core Gas Safety, Cookers, and LPG on Boats. MtB You are confused. Qualifications proving competence have not been relaxed. However the important point is that it is not necessary to prove competence before working on gas appliances, provided it is not done as part of a business. Should things go seriously belly-up I doubt a court would accept 'worked for a caravan company for a while' as proof of competence. So are you saying that if things go seriously belly up due to an installation error, you will be in deep shit if you aren't a member of the GS club, whereas if the same seriously belly up event occurs due to your error when you are in the GS club, you will not be held responsible? I suggest not. Whether or not you are GS registered, if you get it wrong and cause an accident you are going to be culpable, it matters not whether you are in the club or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FadeToScarlet Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Dupe topics merged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) You are confused. Qualifications proving competence have not been relaxed. However the important point is that it is not necessary to prove competence before working on gas appliances, provided it is not done as part of a business. I'm not confused. The OP stated working for a caravan co qualifies one nowadays. "My partner is a mechanic and has worked for a caravan company for a while, so is competent to do a conversion if necessary." See post 6. So are you saying that if things go seriously belly up due to an installation error, you will be in deep shit if you aren't a member of the GS club, whereas if the same seriously belly up event occurs due to your error when you are in the GS club, you will not be held responsible? Nope. I'm saying a statutory defence proving competence is to hold those exam passes. No need to be in the Gas Klub. There may be other ways to convince a court of one's competence but holding the exam passes guarantees acquittal of a charge of not being competent. I suggest not. Whether or not you are GS registered, if you get it wrong and cause an accident you are going to be culpable, it matters not whether you are in the club or not. I suspect you are confusing passing the ACS exams with being GS registered. The former proves competence, the latter entitles one to charge money for carrying out gas work in dwellings. MtB (Edit to expand my comment in my last paragraph.) Edited May 20, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Nope. I'm saying a statutory defence proving competence is to hold those exam passes. No need to be in the Gas Klub. There may be other ways to convince a court of one's competence but holding the exam passes guarantees acquittal of a charge of not being competent. Even if the facts of a particular cases clearly demonstrate that the installer was incompetent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Even if the facts of a particular cases clearly demonstrate that the installer was incompetent? Yes. They get you with something else under those circumstances. Something to do with the Health and Safety At Work regs IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) Yes. They get you with something else under those circumstances. Something to do with the Health and Safety At Work regs IIRC.I very much doubt that is the case. The requirement is to be competent at the time you do the job. That you have passed some exams etc in the past, is no measure that you are competent at the time you do the job. If the workmanship of the job clearly shows it was not done competently, that is breach of the law regardless of which bits of paper you have. I suppose you could substitute negligence for incompetence but a normally competent person doing a job negligently, de facto did the job incompetently. I will grant you that in reality, it would be easier to prove in court that "it wasn't my fault gov" if you have the right bit of paper than if you don't, but ultimately the test in law is the same - were you competent do do the job you undertook or not. And pretty much by definition if the job went badly wrong, you weren't competent. Edited May 20, 2015 by nicknorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 I think that with a liveaboard it is not a case of being 'competent' the installer has to be 'qualified' (have both LPG and 'boat' on their 'ticket' and install it to GSIUR. If you use anyone 'unqualified' (or do not get it tested and certified by a qualified person) then your insurance will certainly be void. Most boats are tested and certified every 4 years aren't they, irrespective of who installed or converted systems? In addition, I'm not aware of any requirement to keep records of who did the work. As such how would any insurance company invalidate one's insurance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Most boats are tested and certified every 4 years aren't they, irrespective of who installed or converted systems? In addition, I'm not aware of any requirement to keep records of who did the work. As such how would any insurance company invalidate one's insurance? You write them a letter and tell them Fred put it in for you. Joking apart, I expect if there was a serious problem due to a failure of the gas system there would be an investigation on how it was installed and if at fault probably by who. Just like when a lorry goes out of control and flattens people. They look into who maintained it.etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 I very much doubt that is the case. The requirement is to be competent at the time you do the job. That you have passed some exams etc in the past, is no measure that you are competent at the time you do the job. If the workmanship of the job clearly shows it was not done competently, that is breach of the law regardless of which bits of paper you have. I suppose you could substitute negligence for incompetence but a normally competent person doing a job negligently, de facto did the job incompetently. I will grant you that in reality, it would be easier to prove in court that "it wasn't my fault gov" if you have the right bit of paper than if you don't, but ultimately the test in law is the same - were you competent do do the job you undertook or not. And pretty much by definition if the job went badly wrong, you weren't competent. A good analogy would be nursing. Yes you are qualified yes you trained and are certified. But you can still be found negligent.....and lose your ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronalan Posted May 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Oops, I seem to have to started quite a debate here! Anyway we've only just bought the boat,so as far as the insurance co is concerned the cooker was already fitted! Just to support his competence, my partner has stripped down 3 caravan cookers at work today to replace therma-couplings! R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Oops, I seem to have to started quite a debate here! Anyway we've only just bought the boat,so as far as the insurance co is concerned the cooker was already fitted! Just to support his competence, my partner has stripped down 3 caravan cookers at work today to replace therma-couplings! R Although to be precise about it, replacing thermocouples doesn't require any gas joints to be disturbed. Anyway the important thing for your partner to understand is that if there is a slight gas leak in a caravan, the gas exits through holes and vents at floor level and no harm done, whereas a boat doesn't have any holes or vents at floor level (otherwise it would sink!) and so if there is the slightest leak then the gas slowly builds up in the bilges until eventually it all goes Boom! In other words there is a much more stringent requirement for gas tightness on a boat than on a caravan. For a boat, no detectable leak can be tolerated. Your partner should check the Boat Safety Scheme regs on how to conduct a gas tightness test using a manometer, once the stove is installed. There must also still be adequate gas pressure at the stove with all burners lit and on full, and there must be adequate fixed ventilation for the heat output of the stove and any other combustion devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronalan Posted May 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 Thank you Nicknorman for your advice, which we have taken on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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