Missing diesel

[Dave_P]

I hope your troubles are over now Allan, and you have a glorious summer of cruising.

[alan_fincher]

What refineries do do is to dose the tanker with different additives depending on the purchaser. The base product being the same.

 

Being pedantic, this generally doesn't happen at the refineries, but at the distribution depots.

 

On the whole road tankers don't load at a refinery. Even if they load at a location that also has a refinery there, they will still load at a separate distribution depot alongside, which will have its own tankage. They would not be drawing directly from refinery tanks.

[David Schweizer]

Slightly off topic....

 

I know someone who worked at Fords R & D dept at Dunton in Essex....and they used to test engines using fuel supplied by a garage that was known to be the cheapest in the area by a long way as the fuel they supplied barely made the relevant British Standard. They reckoned if the engines ran ok on it then they would be ok with anything.....he was also not very complimentary about supermarket fuel!

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

And the former motor engineer I spoke to also said that some engines performed poorly on some supermarket fuels, but performed well on Roadside fuel station diesel, but of course an office worker would know more about engines and fuel than a trained experienced mechanic!

[RLWP]

And the former motor engineer I spoke to also said that some engines performed poorly on some supermarket fuels, but performed well on Roadside fuel station diesel, but of course an office worker would know more about engines and fuel than a trained experienced mechanic!

And someone in the fuel industry would know more than a spanner monkey

 

There are an incredible number of myths floating around the motor trade

 

Richard

[frangar]

And the former motor engineer I spoke to also said that some engines performed poorly on some supermarket fuels, but performed well on Roadside fuel station diesel, but of course an office worker would know more about engines and fuel than a trained experienced mechanic!

Ummm...where did I say my mate was an office worker?.....I'm sure he will chuckle about that when we next meet up! Or are mechanics better than design engineers?

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[alan_fincher]

 

And the former motor engineer I spoke to also said that some engines performed poorly on some supermarket fuels, but performed well on Roadside fuel station diesel, but of course an office worker would know more about engines and fuel than a trained experienced mechanic!

 

The explanation for that, if correct, could be what might get injected at the gantry that makes if a specific Shell, Esso, etc branded product, rather than somebody elses.

 

The base gas oil is the same thing in each case,almost invariably taken from the same tank, but extra things may then get added to it as the tanker is loaded.

 

That is a totally different (and accurate!) statement, from suggesting (quite erroneously!) that supermarket diesel might be some kind of butt-end dregs lewft in a tank not suitable for sale as a a branded product.

 

At no point have I, (at least) suggested that if you buy (for example) Tesco diesel that it has exactly the same things added to the base product as (say) Shell diesel, (or even Sainsbury's diesel). I know it may not, and, of course, enhancing the product with various performance additives may benefit some cars that are particularly sensitive to the fuel in use.

 

When I designed and put together the systems that actually record all this kind of stuff, I had to know exactly how the processes at distribution depots work, and stood and watched them in action on many occasions.

 

Actually, few trained experienced mechanics will ever have been exposed to the detail of what goes on in a fuel oil distribution depot to the same extent as an office boy who has to design the systems that report numbers worth tens of millions of pounds, including all the fine detail about the added components at a level required to satisfy HMRC! (Unless of course they have spent time in both occupations!)

[Naughty Cal]

Slightly off topic....

 

I know someone who worked at Fords R & D dept at Dunton in Essex....and they used to test engines using fuel supplied by a garage that was known to be the cheapest in the area by a long way as the fuel they supplied barely made the relevant British Standard. They reckoned if the engines ran ok on it then they would be ok with anything.....he was also not very complimentary about supermarket fuel!

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

Going a bit off topic again, the slight misfire on my car has gone since we filled it up with fresh fuel.

 

We do wonder if we were sold some duff fuel, this being petrol rather than diesel.

 

The car is running fine again now and we filled up at the same place this week as we did last week.

 

We have been trying to replicate the misfire to no avail.

 

Is dodgy petrol a viable explanation?

Edited June 8, 2015 by Naughty Cal

[David Schweizer]

Ummm...where did I say my mate was an office worker?.....I'm sure he will chuckle about that when we next meet up! Or are mechanics better than design engineers?

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

You didn't, My post was agreeing with you. The office worker I was referring to was Alan. Perhaps i should have multi quoted to make it clearer.

Edited June 9, 2015 by David Schweizer

[Southern Star]

 

Is dodgy petrol a viable explanation?

Yes, often happens if you fill up shortly after a delivery has been made and the crud and particularly the water at the bottom of the bunker has been stirred up as the tanker has pumped in to it.

[jenlyn]

Knowing where Alan worked, and given the fact that he likes to know what's what. I'd prefer to take his input to tittle tattle from hearsay.

[nb Innisfree]

Going a bit off topic again, the slight misfire on my car has gone since we filled it up with fresh fuel.

 

We do wonder if we were sold some duff fuel, this being petrol rather than diesel.

 

The car is running fine again now and we filled up at the same place this week as we did last week.

 

We have been trying to replicate the misfire to no avail.

 

Is dodgy petrol a viable explanation?

It can go stale, that's why a lot of grass mowers are difficult to start in the spring.

[MtB]

It can go stale, that's why a lot of grass mowers are difficult to start in the spring.

 

That's a different problem. As fuel ages the higher more volatile fractions evaporate away making the engine harder to start.

 

Once started the missing volatiles don't matter. Slight misfiring once running will not be due to old fuel IMO.

 

No doubt this will provoke a avalanche of contradictory opinions

 

 

MtB

[jake_crew]

Petrol is now at least 5% ethanol by law. As well as that, butane is pumped into under pressure (to increase its caloric value IIRC).

 

So petrol is like lemonade - the longer you leave it the flatter it gets.

 

But old ethanol actually inhibits combustion so old petrol can be a pain.

 

This is why - despite the possible danger of condensation - I keep the tanks on my old cars as low as poss.

 

If I don't use one for more than a month or so, I drain the old petrol out and fill with fresh before attempting to start.

[David Schweizer]

 

The explanation for that, if correct, could be what might get injected at the gantry that makes if a specific Shell, Esso, etc branded product, rather than somebody elses.

 

The base gas oil is the same thing in each case,almost invariably taken from the same tank, but extra things may then get added to it as the tanker is loaded.

 

That is a totally different (and accurate!) statement, from suggesting (quite erroneously!) that supermarket diesel might be some kind of butt-end dregs lewft in a tank not suitable for sale as a a branded product.

 

At no point have I, (at least) suggested that if you buy (for example) Tesco diesel that it has exactly the same things added to the base product as (say) Shell diesel, (or even Sainsbury's diesel). I know it may not, and, of course, enhancing the product with various performance additives may benefit some cars that are particularly sensitive to the fuel in use.

 

When I designed and put together the systems that actually record all this kind of stuff, I had to know exactly how the processes at distribution depots work, and stood and watched them in action on many occasions.

 

Actually, few trained experienced mechanics will ever have been exposed to the detail of what goes on in a fuel oil distribution depot to the same extent as an office boy who has to design the systems that report numbers worth tens of millions of pounds, including all the fine detail about the added components at a level required to satisfy HMRC! (Unless of course they have spent time in both occupations!)

 

Fair enough, the person I spoke to did say that he had been told the story by a fuel tanker driver, who was clearly excagerating the difference between "bog standard" unimproved supermarket fuel and enhanced branded fuel, I have not named the supermarket chain but they have only been selling fuel for the past ten to fifteen years,

Petrol is now at least 5% ethanol by law. As well as that, butane is pumped into under pressure (to increase its caloric value IIRC).

 

So petrol is like lemonade - the longer you leave it the flatter it gets.

 

But old ethanol actually inhibits combustion so old petrol can be a pain.

 

This is why - despite the possible danger of condensation - I keep the tanks on my old cars as low as poss.

 

If I don't use one for more than a month or so, I drain the old petrol out and fill with fresh before attempting to start.

 

How things have changed, in the past i have successfully started engines where the fuel has lain dormant in the tank for years, sometimes decades.

[MtB]

One would need to drain the carburetor float chamber as well as the tank to ensure old petrol was not being used when starting after a long period.

 

I do this on my genny as I don't use it much. I never turn it OFF, I always run it until it stops by running out of fuel.

[Naughty Cal]

 

Fair enough, the person I spoke to did say that he had been told the story by a fuel tanker driver, who was clearly excagerating the difference between "bog standard" unimproved supermarket fuel and enhanced branded fuel, I have not named the supermarket chain but they have only been selling fuel for the past ten to fifteen years,

 

How things have changed, in the past i have successfully started engines where the fuel has lain dormant in the tank for years, sometimes decades.

Our Sierra fired up just fine and ran fine with three year old fuel in the system.

 

Our 6hp Mariner outboard however wasn't happy with 6 month old fuel.

[DHutch]

I try and run the kitcar low before winter, that tanks not huge anyway, and i sometimes do a run, but equally have no issues starting it in spring.

 

Similarly the bm stood for 4.5mnth while I was in India and started fine in the petrol in the tank once the the battery was charged from flat...

 

 

Daniel

[jake_crew]

One would need to drain the carburetor float chamber as well as the tank to ensure old petrol was not being used when starting after a long period.

 

I do this on my genny as I don't use it much. I never turn it OFF, I always run it until it stops by running out of fuel.

Indeed so Mike, but fortunately the cars have electric fuel pumps so its quite easy.

[bizzard]

There's normally more petrol in my cig lighter than there is in my car.

[Henhouse]

 

 

 

The base gas oil is the same thing in each case,almost invariably taken from the same tank, but extra things may then get added to it as the tanker is loaded.

 

That is exactly as I have always understood it to be.

[Pykebird]

Glad things are finally improving guys.

[Keeping Up]

The lab reports came back today. The good news is that samples from the final rinses showed no trace of biological activity whatsoever.

 

Apparently the six-times doses of biocide HAD in fact eventually killed the bug, but the residue of contamination and dead bugs after the battle had left the diesel utterly unsuitable for any attempt at recovery and definitely unsuitable for use in an engine. The deep cleaning of the tank had certainly been necessary to remove this residue and to have faith that no bugs were still lurking in the accumulated filth.

 

Now we can hopefully do some proper cruising, and all that remains is to see whether the insurance company are willing to contribute towards our expenses.

[frangar]

So was it a new strain of bug or an exsisting one? At least your ok now hopefully.....and good luck with the insurance company!

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[Keeping Up]

Apparently not a new strain of bug, just the existing one but a stronger version.

[cuthound]

I bet your pleased your ordeal is finally over. Let's hope your insurance company picks up the tab.

Edited June 12, 2015 by cuthound