CRT answer questions to new T&Cs

[jenlyn]

If you look at (currently!) recent post 140, you will see I have actually commented on your post 102.

 

I'm not in the habit of quoting and replying to posts that I have not read.

 

I stand by the questions John has chosen to ignore.

 

The continued suggestions or implied suggestions, (in this and similar threads), that people have either not bothered to read the detail, or have not had the mental capacity to understand it, and hence that they are not worthy of an an answer, could look to many people like you can't actually come up with a good one, though.

I think you are just having a pop at john. His final reply was sufficient, though you seem to have struggled to grasp that, or perhaps your just looking to keep popping :-)

He did not ignore you did he? He replied, but you just didn't like the reply.

[Tuscan]

It has been said that many of the boats that move less than 20 kms a year on the K&A are not live aboard. But used for weekending , they move every 14 days and are licensed . Whether with a home mooring or not.

[Bod]

“In accordance with Condition 3.1 and 3.2 of the revised terms and conditions, if you have a home mooring, you must cruise on the waterway whilst you are away from your home mooring, stopping only for short periods (defined as 14 days or less if a local restriction applies). This requirement to cruise is the same as it's always been - it is not an amendment to the terms and conditions

 

Would Ms Jackie Lewis care to show when and where this came into force?

 

(Taken from post #90)

 

Bod

[madcat]

I waded through this thread and came to the conclusion that slowly but surely all the joy is being sucked out of boating by a combination of certain boater groups trying to get rid of others they dislike and using their access to CRT to influence the way the trust operates and the un certainty caused by the constant changes and goal post moving.

I'm not sure it's worth shelling out the considerable sums that a boat costs to own when the license come with such a massive side order of grief.

 

I could sell up walk away and go do something else , I wanted to enjoy my boat and boating . I was willing to support CRT and do my little bit but I cannot support the way things seem to be going .

I don't believe in total anarchy and there is a place for rules and inevitably some enforcement but the trust seem to be taking things too far.

[jenlyn]

I waded through this thread and came to the conclusion that slowly but surely all the joy is being sucked out of boating by a combination of certain boater groups trying to get rid of others they dislike and using their access to CRT to influence the way the trust operates and the un certainty caused by the constant changes and goal post moving.

I'm not sure it's worth shelling out the considerable sums that a boat costs to own when the license come with such a massive side order of grief.

I could sell up walk away and go do something else , I wanted to enjoy my boat and boating . I was willing to support CRT and do my little bit but I cannot support the way things seem to be going .

I don't believe in total anarchy and there is a place for rules and inevitably some enforcement but the trust seem to be taking things too far.

Agree with you in the main.

I don't have a set plan as such when I pull the pins. I just toddle along until I see somewhere I fancy stopping.

All this attempting to "micro manage" how we boat, where we boat and how long for is taking the free spirit attraction away.

The ideals that first attracted many, seem to be being eroded away by people who have no interest, other than between the hours of Monday to Friday, nine till five.

I just wander at what point we will be handed tokens to "enjoy our ride".

[Alan de Enfield]

If, and when, the time comes it will be 'back to sea' for me. No BSS, No C&RT, and apart from the Colregs not much in the way of legislation (in UK waters)

 

No 1 Son is in the process of buying one of these (38 foot catamaran) - 6 berth, 2 bathrooms, air-con, 6 foot headroom in bedrooms, twin 28hp Yanmar engines, worldwide cruising capability No need to have one leg longer than the other.

 

Proper boating.

 

Edited March 22, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[mrsmelly]

I waded through this thread and came to the conclusion that slowly but surely all the joy is being sucked out of boating by a combination of certain boater groups trying to get rid of others they dislike and using their access to CRT to influence the way the trust operates and the un certainty caused by the constant changes and goal post moving.

I'm not sure it's worth shelling out the considerable sums that a boat costs to own when the license come with such a massive side order of grief.

 

I could sell up walk away and go do something else , I wanted to enjoy my boat and boating . I was willing to support CRT and do my little bit but I cannot support the way things seem to be going .

I don't believe in total anarchy and there is a place for rules and inevitably some enforcement but the trust seem to be taking things too far.

 

Cannot agree. I dont know where you do your boating but since 1989 we have used bwb, bw and now CART waters and precisely nothing has changed. We still love it and never get any hassle from CART we simply comply with the very few very easy to understand rules wether we are ccing or have a mooring.

When we bought the first boat we were told about what ccing meant and about the 14 day rule, it certainly aint rocket science.

I recently purchased another boat and sent the paperwork off and said ccing and hey ho back came my licence.

I think if you talk to the majority of boaters who like myself are not members of any " user group " and especialy not on any canal forum about these matters they would have no idea od what you are talking about as nothing has changed.

Keep boating, keep complying and keep smiling thats what we do.

 

Tim

[Arthur Marshall]

Agree with you in the main.

I don't have a set plan as such when I pull the pins. I just toddle along until I see somewhere I fancy stopping.

All this attempting to "micro manage" how we boat, where we boat and how long for is taking the free spirit attraction away.

The ideals that first attracted many, seem to be being eroded away by people who have no interest, other than between the hours of Monday to Friday, nine till five.

I just wander at what point we will be handed tokens to "enjoy our ride".

i sort of agree, but it doesn't actually seem to impinge much (yet) on anyone who is actually holiday boating or CCing by exploring the whole system. I suspect the majority of boaters have home moorings and potter out for a few weeks every year, and it'll make no difference to them at all (especially the hundreds that never actually move from their moorings at all). It's obviously an attempt to cut down on the space hoggers who don't follow the spirit of the legislation and again I'd presume this is because of the explosion n the number of boats over the last twenty years and the increase in the numbers living on as the only way they can afford a home in the area they are used to working and living. Also, as you say, it gives the office workers something to do - we've all suffered from "new boss syndrome" when things have to be changed just to show that the new guy is doing something.

[mark99]

I waded through this thread and came to the conclusion that slowly but surely all the joy is being sucked out of boating by a combination of certain boater groups trying to get rid of others they dislike and using their access to CRT to influence the way the trust operates and the un certainty caused by the constant changes and goal post moving.

I'm not sure it's worth shelling out the considerable sums that a boat costs to own when the license come with such a massive side order of grief.

 

I could sell up walk away and go do something else , I wanted to enjoy my boat and boating . I was willing to support CRT and do my little bit but I cannot support the way things seem to be going .

I don't believe in total anarchy and there is a place for rules and inevitably some enforcement but the trust seem to be taking things too far.

Theres your problem. You waded through an Internet thread and made a conclusion. Trouble with modern social media it's not balanced. Try boating within the rules and you won't see owt to worry about iMo. Edited March 22, 2015 by mark99

[mrsmelly]

Theres your problem. You waded through an Internet thread and made a conclusion. Trouble with modern social media it's not balanced. Try boating within the rules and you won't see owt to worry about iMo.

 

Avery short to the point and completely correct post.

 

Tim

[DaveC]

Would it not be worth making an official complaint about the "new" T&Cs? Make sure that CaRT know it is a complaint and it will eventually get to the attention of the Waterways Ombudsman, who will carry out an investigation. When I had dealings with the previous WO, (Ms Bainbridge) she was very thorough.

 

Dave

[bassplayer]

I'd presume this is because of the explosion n the number of boats over the last twenty years...

I thought the figures that someone posted here (Tony?) a little while back show this is not true for the last few years. Does anyone have figures for the last 20 years?

[Guest]

I waded through this thread and came to the conclusion that slowly but surely all the joy is being sucked out of boating by a combination of certain boater groups trying to get rid of others they dislike and using their access to CRT to influence the way the trust operates and the un certainty caused by the constant changes and goal post moving.

I'm not sure it's worth shelling out the considerable sums that a boat costs to own when the license come with such a massive side order of grief.

I could sell up walk away and go do something else , I wanted to enjoy my boat and boating . I was willing to support CRT and do my little bit but I cannot support the way things seem to be going .

I don't believe in total anarchy and there is a place for rules and inevitably some enforcement but the trust seem to be taking things too far.

We ARE selling up but it is not for any of the reasons you cite here. What you see and read on this forum does not reflect what happens in real life, at least in so far as what our experience as regular boaters up to around 3/4 months ago goes. This forum like many others attracts a vocal minority the result of which is a distortion of reality. It particularly seems to attract those with a grudge (justified or otherwise) against the Trust who keep banging on about how crap the trust and its senior staff are are or how badly done to they or others are. The result of that is that it starts others questioning whether or not they are complying with 'the rules' - we have seen it happen on here numerous times with threads started and posts made like 'am I moving enough'?

 

Meanwhile in the real world (not this one) boaters are merrily boating, easily meeting their requirements totally oblivious to some of the poo stirring that goes on by some on here and which is turned into an art form on Narrowboat World. There is undoubtably fault on occasions in what the trust does and there is undoubtably a small minority of boaters who need to stop taking the pee, the number of times it gets discussed on here however distils and concentrates it down to make it appear that both of those issues are more of a problem than they really are.

 

The sad thing to me is that people reading some of the stuff on here would even consider giving up their boating because of it or even worse somebody who is considering taking up boating as either a lifestyle choice or as a leisure activity joined this forum and read some of the stuff and thought 'nah, that's not for me, it's just not worth the hassle'. That would be wrong, very wrong in my opinion.

[Alan de Enfield]

Would it not be worth making an official complaint about the "new" T&Cs? Make sure that CaRT know it is a complaint and it will eventually get to the attention of the Waterways Ombudsman, who will carry out an investigation. When I had dealings with the previous WO, (Ms Bainbridge) she was very thorough.

 

Dave

 

Is the WO back in operation

 

Jan 2015

 

Waterways Ombudsman Committee

 

CaRT admitted that the committee, which ensures the independence of the Waterways Ombudsman scheme, was no longer in operation. However, it failed to state why it was abandoned or when.

[luctor et emergo]

 

Cannot agree. I dont know where you do your boating but since 1989 we have used bwb, bw and now CART waters and precisely nothing has changed. We still love it and never get any hassle from CART we simply comply with the very few very easy to understand rules wether we are ccing or have a mooring.

When we bought the first boat we were told about what ccing meant and about the 14 day rule, it certainly aint rocket science.

I recently purchased another boat and sent the paperwork off and said ccing and hey ho back came my licence.

I think if you talk to the majority of boaters who like myself are not members of any " user group " and especialy not on any canal forum about these matters they would have no idea od what you are talking about as nothing has changed.

Keep boating, keep complying and keep smiling thats what we do.

 

Tim

Tim, you are largely right, but what you are not taking into account, is that CRT is unlikely to stop here. They are acting outside their powers, making up rules that they can't. If they are allowed to do this this time, they will move ob to the next group. Previously, those bridge hopping with a mooring were not even mentioned, let alone targeted. Now they are threatened with non renewal of their licence if they dont cruise when away from their home mooring. Again, cruise how far?

 

The thin edge of the wedge has taken hold in the crack, and CRT are starting to hit it with a hammer. CRT would love to have only keeo short section navigable, with boats only allowed out at a rota. The rest of the system only needs a bit of stagnant water for the ducjs and the walkers, cyclists, dog walkers etc. Boats are a burden and a nuisance.

 

BW did not want the CC option without a home mooring. What makes you think CRT is different?

[Alan de Enfield]

Tim, you are largely right, but what you are not taking into account, is that CRT is unlikely to stop here. They are acting outside their powers, making up rules that they can't. If they are allowed to do this this time, they will move ob to the next group. Previously, those bridge hopping with a mooring were not even mentioned, let alone targeted. Now they are threatened with non renewal of their licence if they dont cruise when away from their home mooring. Again, cruise how far?

 

The thin edge of the wedge has taken hold in the crack, and CRT are starting to hit it with a hammer. CRT would love to have only keeo short section navigable, with boats only allowed out at a rota. The rest of the system only needs a bit of stagnant water for the ducjs and the walkers, cyclists, dog walkers etc. Boats are a burden and a nuisance.

 

BW did not want the CC option without a home mooring. What makes you think CRT is different?

 

Good post.

 

As many people keep saying "keep to the rules and there is no problem" and that is fine if the rules are those you 'signed up to'. No one is bothered about a few new rules until one is introduced that affects them personally.

 

Introducing a few new 'amendments just to tidy up the paperwork' will lead to them thinking they have Carte Blanche to introduce more and more draconian measures - C&RT are relying on the normal reaction of not reading T&Cs

 

I believe that unless boaters of all types are made aware of what is happening (and it is NOT scare mongering) and pull together we will have a case of "Parson Niemoller"

 

First they came for the Non-Moving CCers

I was not a non-moving CCer so I was not worried.

Then they came for the "Moving a Bit" CCers

But I was not ................

[kris88]

It's a nice reassuring mantra though "nowts changed, nowts changed, nowts changed"

I'd question it ,look at the introduction of the numerous 48h moorings. Them ask yourself about the direction you think CRT want to take the waterways.

Regards kris

Edited March 22, 2015 by kris88

[bassplayer]

Them ask yourself about the direction you think CRT want to take the waterways.

To know what that is you'd need to find out what the CEO's brief is...

[Arthur Marshall]

 

I believe that unless boaters of all types are made aware of what is happening (and it is NOT scare mongering) and pull together we will have a case of "Parson Niemoller"

 

First they came for the Non-Moving CCers

I was not a non-moving CCer so I was not worried.

Then they came for the "Moving a Bit" CCers

But I was not ................

As soon as someone starts quoting this you can be sure the argument's over and you're down to entrenched attitudes. Evil though I'm sure they are, let's not start comparing Parry to Hitler and CRT to those who managed Auschwitz, nor what's happening to us on the cut to cattle trucks and concentration camps. It's an insult to six million dead.

[Guest]

It's a nice reassuring mantra though "nowts changed, nowts changed, nowts changed"

 

 

 

A bit like the one that goes 'it's all turned crap. its all turned crap, it's all turned crap' you mean?

[cotswoldsman]

 

 

A bit like the one that goes 'it's all turned crap. its all turned crap, it's all turned crap' you mean?

How about "it is slowly turning for the worse"?

[kris88]

I don't think it's all turned crap, but unless people realise that they need to do something to ensure it doesn't. Anyway it has no effect on you as soon as your boat is sold, so why worry?

Regards kris

[Alan de Enfield]

As soon as someone starts quoting this you can be sure the argument's over and you're down to entrenched attitudes. Evil though I'm sure they are, let's not start comparing Parry to Hitler and CRT to those who managed Auschwitz, nor what's happening to us on the cut to cattle trucks and concentration camps. It's an insult to six million dead.

 

You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine - but - you are reading too much into this.

 

Are you suggesting that we should not utilise any poems, songs, whatever by changing the words

 

Would you suggest that the schoolboy favourite "Whilst Shepherds washed their socks by night" is an insult to God or Jesus Christ ?

[kris88]

No it's an insult to shepherds, there not stupid enough to be washing there socks at night.

Regards kris

[Guest]

How about "it is slowly turning for the worse"?

 

As some of us keep saying on here the Trust just cant win.

 

My personal experience (up to around three months ago a I say) was that it felt no different to when we first bought our boat in the summer of 2010. But then neither did CRT have cause to come after me for anything in that time. The worst 'offence' I can recall that I committed was using the end bollard on a lock landing once because I couldn't get my front end pin in. Other than that I never over stayed without CRT's knowledge (Once hemmed in by floods at Castleford) and I never stayed anywhere any more than 14 days, I think the max. I ever moored in one spot was 7.

 

The rules are easy for both boaters with or without a home mooring to comply with.

 

Everything else to me appears to read as speculation about what the 'trusts next move is going to be' as if there is some sort of unwritten aim to drive boaters off the waterways, why the hell would they do that? - the loss in revenue would be massive.

 

As for driving boaters without a home mooring into marinas or onto LTM's I never sensed the ones I used to speak to (rather than the ones who come on here) felt in anyway pressured into taking a mooring up. To a person they were all thoroughly enjoying their chosen lifestyle.

Anyway it has no effect on you as soon as your boat is sold, so why worry?

 

Boat ownership is not a requirement in order to be able to participate in either forum discussions or activities (including hire boating) on the waterways.