CRT answer questions to new T&Cs

[MtB]

Isn't everyone here!

[jenlyn]

Piss takers are the CCers who CM. As are dumpers By definition they don't have a home mooring surely!

 

Anyway yes I'm happy to take on CRT over this if necessary, although my cruising pattern of bridge hopping a 20 mile stretch for six months on one boat then returing it to its home mooring while I do something similar with the other, seems to fit their latest definition of 'cruising for boaters with a home mooring' rather well.

 

So it's a 'fail' for you two dementers!

Dumpers have home moorings, but piss take by leaving empty boats on the cut. In some cases, this can cause problems for boaters on a cruise when it is happening in a confined area of let's say, 20 miles.

This is what seems to be coming across from some at boaters meetings, so I am merely repeating what I have heard.

On having read some of your posts, I can see the point of view that these boaters are making, and can in a small way see the selfishness you seem to indulge in.

[Tony Dunkley]

NABO asked C&RT for clarification on the new T&Cs - It is interesting to note that the 'official reply' now makes no mention of being in a new 'place' every 14 days.

 

From the NABO website :-

 

NABO recently asked Jackie Lewis CRT General Legal Counsel to elaborate on the changes to the terms and conditions for boaters with a home mooring. We publish in full her reply with her permission.

“In accordance with Condition 3.1 and 3.2 of the revised terms and conditions, if you have a home mooring, you must cruise on the waterway whilst you are away from your home mooring, stopping only for short periods (defined as 14 days or less if a local restriction applies). This requirement to cruise is the same as it's always been - it is not an amendment to the terms and conditions.

What it means to “cruise” on the waterway depends upon the period of time your boat is away from its home mooring. The longer it spends away from its home mooring, the greater the range of movement expected. As an extreme, if you never returned to your home mooring for the entire period of your licence, we would expect you to cruise continuously and therefore your pattern of movement should be the same as that of a boat without a home mooring. In contrast, however, if your boat spends the majority of the time on its home mooring and only leaves to cruise for short periods of time, then the range of movement expected for each cruise will be much more limited.

To explain further, every time you return to your home mooring (provided that this is not merely for a nominal period in an attempt to circumvent the rules), your cruise ends and “the clock” is effectively re-set. The next time you leave, you start on a new cruise, the extent of which will depend upon the time spent away from the home mooring. If you are away for just a weekend, that cruise will be quite short in terms of distance. On the other hand, if you are away from your home mooring for several months, we would expect to see a much greater range of movement.

By way of example, it would be perfectly acceptable to leave your home mooring for weekend, cruise a short distance and moor for 48 hours (at a legitimate mooring site) and then return to your home mooring, and this pattern of movement could be repeated on several weekends throughout the year. However, shuffling between two locations close together, neither of which is your home mooring, for an extended period is not permitted as that shuffling is not "cruising". “

 

The question now is "do we follow what is written in the new T&Cs, or, do we follow the explanation given by Council ?", maybe more to the point which do C&RT follow ?

 

The 'pattern' of boat movement described in that statement from Jackie Lewis is pretty much what they tried to impose on me last year, so the good news for anyone ,with a home mooring, is that any attempts to enforce that load of twaddle, by revoking your Licence and serving a Section 8 notice, can be countered by applying to renew the revoked Licence and blocking any attempts to seize the boat.

That statement is nothing more than a blatant attempt to rewrite the 1995 Act, maybe Ms. Lewis should have her job title changed to 'CRT General Illegal Counsel'.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[cotswoldsman]

Piss takers are the CCers who CM. As are dumpers By definition they don't have a home mooring surely!

 

Anyway yes I'm happy to take on CRT over this if necessary, although my cruising pattern of bridge hopping a 20 mile stretch for six months on one boat then returing it to its home mooring while I do something similar with the other, seems to fit their latest definition of 'cruising for boaters with a home mooring' rather well.

 

So it's a 'fail' for you two dementers!

Piss takers are dumpers who leave boats empty especially in popular areas such as Braunston

[Alan de Enfield]

I have looked at dozens of definitions for 'cruise' and the two that appear most relevant to the Inland Waterways are :

 

a. To sail or travel about, as for pleasure or reconnaissance.

b. To go or move along, especially in an unhurried or unconcerned fashion

But none of the seem to link 'time and distance' (as in the longer you are away from your mooring, the further you must cruise) and in fact some definitions define the opposite :

c. To patrol a body of water, as a warship (ie 'cruising up and own the same stretch of water)

C&RTs definition of cruise (from their T&Cs)

The terms ‘cruise’ and ‘cruising’ are used in this guidance to mean using a boat bona fide for navigation

Interestingly the definition for Bona Fide is explained ONLY in the section for Boaters Without A Home Mooring.

The law requires that the boat “will be bona fide used for navigation throughout the period of [the licence]”.
‘Bona fide’ is Latin for “with good faith” and is used by lawyers to mean ‘sincerely’ or ‘genuinely’. ‘Navigation’ in this context means travelling on water involving movement in passage or transit. 4
Therefore, subject to stops of permitted duration, those using a boat licensed for continuous cruising must genuinely be moving, in passage or in transit throughout the period of the licence.
Importantly, short trips within the same neighbourhood, and shuttling backwards and forwards along a small part of the network do NOT meet the legal requirement for navigation throughout the period of the licence.

Councel has therefore confirmed that when away from your home mooring you must "cruise" - "cruise" means Bona Fide Navigation. So - when away from your home mooring you are subject to the same rules as a CCer.

[MtB]

Piss takers are dumpers who leave boats empty especially in popular areas such as Braunston

 

No let's get this straight, piss takers are boaters who declare they will CC in order to avoid paying for a mooring, then moor continuously in one area.

 

I was the one who coined the term after all, so I should know!

[Alan de Enfield]

 

The 'pattern' of boat movement described in that statement from Jackie Lewis is pretty much what they tried to impose on me last year, so the good news for anyone ,with a home mooring, is that any attempts to enforce that load of twaddle, by revoking your Licence and serving a Section 8 notice, can be countered by applying to renew the revoked Licence and blocking any attempts to seize the boat.

That statement is nothing more than a blatant attempt to rewrite the 1995 Act, maybe Ms. Lewis should have her job title changed to 'CRT General Illegal Counsel'.

 

Nope - they now got that covered in the new T&Cs

 

If your licence is terminated in accordance with this Condition 8, you agree that for the remainder of what would have been the licence period, you will not apply for a new licence and you will remove the boat from our waterways. Should you apply for a new licence during this period, we will not consider the application.

 

How that squares with the actual legislation (they cannot refuse a licence if you have Insurance, a BSS and a Home Mooring or declare CC) is anybodies guess !

[cotswoldsman]

 

No let's get this straight, piss takers are boaters who declare they will CC in order to avoid paying for a mooring, then moor continuously in one area.

 

I was the one who coined the term after all, so I should know!

As they say first line of defense by the guilty is to try and put the blame on someone else

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Nope - they now got that covered in the new T&Cs

 

If your licence is terminated in accordance with this Condition 8, you agree that for the remainder of what would have been the licence period, you will not apply for a new licence and you will remove the boat from our waterways. Should you apply for a new licence during this period, we will not consider the application.

 

How that squares with the actual legislation (they cannot refuse a licence if you have Insurance, a BSS and a Home Mooring or declare CC) is anybodies guess !

 

Despite them putting that in the new (amended) T & C's it is, in fact, utterly meaningless and unenforceable. They are bound by the terms of the 1995 Act with respect to the issue and refusal of Licences, and no amount of pseudo legal waffle in the form of so called T &C's, or anything else, can change that. It's nothing more than another cynical and dishonest attempt to intimidate boaters.

[Tony Dunkley]

I really do wonder how much more of C&RT's unreasonable and dictatorial attitude, coupled with a persistent and blatant disregard for the law, will be met with a continuing willingness to talk and attempt negotiations on the part of boaters and the organizations that represent them.

History records, for all to see, that appeasement of dictators and tyrants invariably fails and more often than not, leads only to greater excesses and even more outrageous and unreasonable behaviour .

The time for talking, asking and reasoning has passed, and it has not worked, and, demonstrably, it isn't going to. It is now time to start making it clear to C&RT that all this nonsense must, and will, come to an end, and that they now have to begin to function in the way that they were intended to, as a navigation authority charged with the responsibility of maintaining and preserving our inland waterways.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[cac]

The time for talking, asking and reasoning has passed, and it has not worked, and, demonstrably, it isn't going to. It is now time to start making it clear to piss taking boaters that all this nonsense must, and will, come to an end, and that they now have to begin to function in the way that they decleared on their license application.

[jenlyn]

I really do wonder how much more of C&RT's unreasonable and dictatorial attitude, coupled with a persistent and blatant disregard for the law, will be met with a continuing willingness to talk and attempt negotiations on the part of boaters and the organizations that represent them.

History records, for all to see, that appeasement of dictators and tyrants invariably fails and more often than not, leads only to greater excesses and even more outrageous and unreasonable behaviour .

The time for talking, asking and reasoning has passed, and it has not worked, and, demonstrably, it isn't going to. It is now time to start making it clear to C&RT that all this nonsense must, and will, come to an end, and that they now have to begin to function in the way that they were intended to, as a navigation authority charged with the responsibility of maintaining and preserving our inland waterways.

Totally agree.

There is always a point to which you push too far, and I suspect CRT are fast reaching it.

[Alan de Enfield]

The time for talking, asking and reasoning has passed, and it has not worked, and, demonstrably, it isn't going to. It is now time to start making it clear to piss taking boaters that all this nonsense must, and will, come to an end, and that they now have to begin to function in the way that they decleared on their license application.

 

Cac - a very apt name considering the post you just made.

 

I declare I have a Home Mooring, why, therefore, must I meet the conditions of a Boat Without A Home Mooring ?

It is C&RT that are extracting the urine !!!!

Edited March 21, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[cotswoldsman]

 

It is C&RT that are extracting the urine !!!!

Oi I object to CRT having the same status as ccers

[cac]

 

Cac - a very apt name considering the post you just made.

 

I declare I have a Home Mooring, why, therefore, must I meet the conditions of a Boat Without A Home Mooring ?

It is C&RT that are extracting the urine !!!!

Alan de Enfield try reading the post properly and then engage brain before fingers.

Where does my post say anything about anyones mooring or otherwise status . All its says is to meet the conditions of your license.

You have a license and a home mooring all you have to do is meet the license conditions for someone in that position.

[cotswoldsman]

Alan de Enfield try reading the post properly and then engage brain before fingers.

Where does my post say anything about anyones mooring or otherwise status . All its says is to meet the conditions of your license.

You have a license and a home mooring all you have to do is meet the license conditions for someone in that position.

Maybe you need to read T&C before engaging fingers

[jenlyn]

Cac - a very apt name considering the post you just made.

Lol.

I thought duplicate accounts weren't allowed.

[bargemast]

Maybe you need to read T&C before engaging fingers

I like your remark, as that's clearly what's needed here.

 

Only I would have used "surely" instead of "maybe".

 

Peter.

[Dave Clinton]

Lol.

I thought duplicate accounts weren't allowed.

it's probably Alf Robertd.

[Alan de Enfield]

Alan de Enfield try reading the post properly and then engage brain before fingers.

Where does my post say anything about anyones mooring or otherwise status . All its says is to meet the conditions of your license.

You have a license and a home mooring all you have to do is meet the license conditions for someone in that position.

 

I will try an explain this for you in simple sentences :

 

This thread is not about Licence conditions being met.

This thread is about the new Terms and conditions which C&RT are trying to implement.

 

I have a Home mooring

I have Insurance

I have a BSS

I meet the licence conditions.

C&RT have granted me a licence.

 

 

After my licence has been issued.

C&RT decide to change the T&Cs,

I have not agreed to these T&Cs

C&RT T&Cs now say I must comply with the Boat without a home mooring conditions.

The law does not say I must comply with the Boat without a home mooring conditions

C&RTs requirements are contrary to the law.

 

Is that better for you ?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[Dave Clinton]

NABO asked C&RT for clarification on the new T&Cs - It is interesting to note that the 'official reply' now makes no mention of being in a new 'place' every 14 days.

 

From the NABO website :-

 

NABO recently asked Jackie Lewis CRT General Legal Counsel to elaborate on the changes to the terms and conditions for boaters with a home mooring. We publish in full her reply with her permission.

In accordance with Condition 3.1 and 3.2 of the revised terms and conditions, if you have a home mooring, you must cruise on the waterway whilst you are away from your home mooring, stopping only for short periods (defined as 14 days or less if a local restriction applies). This requirement to cruise is the same as it's always been - it is not an amendment to the terms and conditions.

What it means to cruise on the waterway depends upon the period of time your boat is away from its home mooring. The longer it spends away from its home mooring, the greater the range of movement expected. As an extreme, if you never returned to your home mooring for the entire period of your licence, we would expect you to cruise continuously and therefore your pattern of movement should be the same as that of a boat without a home mooring. In contrast, however, if your boat spends the majority of the time on its home mooring and only leaves to cruise for short periods of time, then the range of movement expected for each cruise will be much more limited.

To explain further, every time you return to your home mooring (provided that this is not merely for a nominal period in an attempt to circumvent the rules), your cruise ends and the clock is effectively re-set. The next time you leave, you start on a new cruise, the extent of which will depend upon the time spent away from the home mooring. If you are away for just a weekend, that cruise will be quite short in terms of distance. On the other hand, if you are away from your home mooring for several months, we would expect to see a much greater range of movement.

By way of example, it would be perfectly acceptable to leave your home mooring for weekend, cruise a short distance and moor for 48 hours (at a legitimate mooring site) and then return to your home mooring, and this pattern of movement could be repeated on several weekends throughout the year. However, shuffling between two locations close together, neither of which is your home mooring, for an extended period is not permitted as that shuffling is not "cruising".

 

The question now is "do we follow what is written in the new T&Cs, or, do we follow the explanation given by Council ?", maybe more to the point which do C&RT follow ?

Assuming this is a correct quote of a statement by CRT, it's a contradiction of the 1995 Act. "a place must be available ...." etc.

 

Unfortunately CRT are completely and utterly unaccountable to anyone and a judicial review must be undertaken by someone directly affected by application of it.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2015 by GoodGurl
unnecessary goading

[kris88]

That's as clear as anyone could make it Alan.

Regards kris

[Tony Dunkley]

CAC may be an acronym . . . . . . CAD is the acronym for Computer Aided Design.

[cotswoldsman]

it's probably Alf Robertd.

Might be a dumper

[Alan de Enfield]

CAC may be an acronym . . . . . . CAD is the acronym for Computer Aided Design.

 

CAC is a slang term for the solids that you deposit in your cassette or holding tank.

Assuming this is a correct quote of a statement by CRT, it's a contradiction of the 1995 Act. "a place must be available ...." etc.

 

 

Another convert, - we are getting here slowly, the problem is there are so many C&RT apologists who see them as doing no wrong, and as a big organisation they must be interpreting and quoting the law correctly.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Alan de Enfield