Stern line on tiller

[RLWP]

We broke the wooden handle of our tiller coming out of one of the locks in the Lapworth flight by catching it against the lock side

 

Richard

[Daiboy]

Two stern lines coiled nicely to either side of my cruiser deck and hung from the aft rails, two centre lines coming back to my steering position and one bow rope which I hardly ever use unless mooring up. Single handed with centre line used often as not.

[nb Innisfree]

When we first hired a narrowboat I kept the stern rope coiled round the tiller pin, while in a lock I heard a banging noise and looked behind me to see the rope rapidly unwinding itself from the pin as the prop reeled it in. Before I could react and shut the engine down the rope flung itself back into my hands complete with the splice neatly undone!

[mayalld]

When we first hired a narrowboat I kept the stern rope coiled round the tiller pin, while in a lock I heard a banging noise and looked behind me to see the rope rapidly unwinding itself from the pin as the prop reeled it in. Before I could react and shut the engine down the rope flung itself back into my hands complete with the splice neatly undone!

 

Yet others in the thread contend that because it has never happened to them over x years, it just isn't going to happen. One even suggested that gravity would prevent it (only if you ensure that the coil is at least half the height of the tiller bar).

 

Essentially, the coil would need to be small to avoid snagging, and long to ensure that gravity doesn't play.

 

To look at it another way, in another thread there was a bit of a moan about having to get somebody in to do the risk assesment. This is a case in point as to why it is necessary to do so.

 

In all too many cases, people's assement of risk amounts to "I have done it that way without incident for 10 years, therefore it is safe".

[Scholar Gypsy]

An alternative approach is to put a largeish loop (bowline) in the end of the line, and hang that on the tiller pin, leaving the rest of the rope neatly coiled on the deck.

 

I find this quite useful when I am crewing and the helmsman has limited mobility. It makes it easy for them to pass the rope to me, or to fix it onto the dog clip that I have lowered down into the lock.

[Bettie Boo]

Is your life ring often in use?

 

Poor sentence structure; when the stern line isn't in use it's stored coiled in the middle of the life ring which lives on top of the back hatch.

 

Better?

[Dave_P]

Why change the side it's fixed to at all unless you've got particularly short ropes? Just run it across and tie it off on the T stud closest to the bank. I always use both T studs anyway so when moored near a town and kids try setting the boat free the rope is still securely tied on the opposite side of the back deck. That's saved me going adrift in Warwick and Chester in the past. I've yet to come across kids brave enough to step across the boat and try to untie the rope on the far side as well as the nearside.

 

edited to add: wide beam issue I assume

Making it hard to untie your ropes increases the chance of them being cut.

 

Yet others in the thread contend that because it has never happened to them over x years, it just isn't going to happen. One even suggested that gravity would prevent it (only if you ensure that the coil is at least half the height of the tiller bar).

 

Essentially, the coil would need to be small to avoid snagging, and long to ensure that gravity doesn't play.

 

To look at it another way, in another thread there was a bit of a moan about having to get somebody in to do the risk assesment. This is a case in point as to why it is necessary to do so.

 

In all too many cases, people's assement of risk amounts to "I have done it that way without incident for 10 years, therefore it is safe".

Well said!

[rgreg]

 

Yet others in the thread contend that because it has never happened to them over x years, it just isn't going to happen. One even suggested that gravity would prevent it (only if you ensure that the coil is at least half the height of the tiller bar).

 

Essentially, the coil would need to be small to avoid snagging, and long to ensure that gravity doesn't play.

 

To look at it another way, in another thread there was a bit of a moan about having to get somebody in to do the risk assesment. This is a case in point as to why it is necessary to do so.

 

In all too many cases, people's assement of risk amounts to "I have done it that way without incident for 10 years, therefore it is safe".

Ok, I've been and completed my risk assessment and still assert that there is no risk of the rope being accidentally "knocked off" the tiller pin. The squirrel's tail on the pin acts as a very suitable retainer. Each to their own though.

[Kendal]

Whenever not in use the stern line is coiled up and hung on a big coat hook just inside the rear doors. Nowhere near the tiller pin, off the counter but readily at hand. Front line is coiled up on the gas locker door and the centre line on top of the slide.

 

The rest of our ropes are used to securely lash the wife to the bed when there are no locks to be done.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Kendal

[RLWP]

Whenever not in use the stern line is coiled up and hung on a big coat hook just inside the rear doors. Nowhere near the tiller pin, off the counter but readily at hand. Front line is coiled up on the gas locker door and the centre line on top of the slide.

 

The rest of our ropes are used to securely lash the wife to the bed when there are no locks to be done.

Who cooks your dinner ?

 

Richard

[FadeToScarlet]

I am probably showing my ignorance here but why do you need to remove the tiller bar? It doesn't make any difference to the angle the tiller will move to and I have never come across one long enough to catch a lock wall if moved to the position you describe.

 

Interesting, I've found several boats where, once the rudder is turned to 90 degrees, so right across the boat, the length of the tiller is outside the profile of the boat. This is assuming there aren't any silly stops on it to prevent it being moved right over.

[Ray T]

The argument about removing the tiller in case it catches a lock wall can be solved by the use of tiller strings.

I believe this was used quite effectively in days of yore.

 

Easy with a trad or semi trad, not so with a cruiser stern.

Therefore following some sort of warped logic one could proffer the suggestion that cruises sterns are not as safe as trad or semi trad, from this aspect.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Ray T

[MtB]

 

Interesting, I've found several boats where, once the rudder is turned to 90 degrees, so right across the boat, the length of the tiller is outside the profile of the boat. This is assuming there aren't any silly stops on it to prevent it being moved right over.

 

I find the same.

 

Even so, I still find it hard to imagine circumstances when removing the tiller is so urgent that the delay caused by lifting the stern line from the tiller pin causes a disaster.

 

MtB

[Paul C]

 

Interesting, I've found several boats where, once the rudder is turned to 90 degrees, so right across the boat, the length of the tiller is outside the profile of the boat. This is assuming there aren't any silly stops on it to prevent it being moved right over.

 

I've always taken this as something of a design fault. The tiller can be plenty long enough, without needing to be so long it falls outside the boat's profile and thus in danger of catching on lock walls etc.

 

Worth mentioning though that certain situations can still leave the tiller vulnerable, even if its within the profile. The one I remember off the top of my head (because I've seen a few hire boaters come to grief) is middlewich junction, turning from the T&M (Anderton to Middlewich direction) onto the Wardle Canal, the bridge is just after the junction and is a shallow profile one, so just when you need the tiller at max., and its easy to misjudge the lining up, the bridge sloped roof presents an obstacle. Of course, this would be a daft time to remove the tiller so even this doesn't make the rope being there unsafe.

[FadeToScarlet]

The argument about removing the tiller in case it catches a lock wall can be solved by the use of tiller strings.

I believe this was used quite effectively in days of yore.

 

Easy with a trad or semi trad, not so with a cruiser stern.

Therefore following some sort of arped logic one could proffer the suggestion that cruises sterns are not as safe as trad or semi trad, from this aspect.

It does depend a bit on circumstances, I.was on about some narrow locks with a 72' boat, where you don't fit unless the rudder is pit deliberately hard over.

 

Thinking a bit more, you normally remove the ellum on a butty so it can't swing about in locks too.

[X Alan W]

It does depend a bit on circumstances, I.was on about some narrow locks with a 72' boat, where you don't fit unless the rudder is pit deliberately hard over.

 

Thinking a bit more, you normally remove the ellum on a butty so it can't swing about in locks too.

In my pair boating days both boats were fitted with tiller strings. depended on the lock as to, if or not the tiller bar /ellum was removed

[mayalld]

Ok, I've been and completed my risk assessment and still assert that there is no risk of the rope being accidentally "knocked off" the tiller pin. The squirrel's tail on the pin acts as a very suitable retainer. Each to their own though.

 

Which proves that your RA isn't competently done.

 

1) It is not the case that there is "no" risk of it being knocked off. The design of the pin may well mean that it is less likely than with a simple staight pin.

2) Your RA seems not to have considered the possibility of gravity acting on a rope end causing it to flake down onto the counter and over the side.

3) Your RA hasn't considered the possibility of catching the rope and accidentally pulling a loop longer with the same effect

4) Your RA hasn't considered the possibility that the squirrel's tail will catch when deploying the rope.

[RLWP]

I think you are doing your risk assessment wrong. There are dangers and then there is the risk associated with it

 

E.g. When walking in the country there is a danger of getting struck by a meteorite. The risk is small

 

Richard

[Tam & Di]

 

Interesting in the offshore world with modern yachts the warps are always stowed in the cockpit lockers when not in use so they are hardly ready for instant use.

 

On older sailing craft the lines / ropes / halyards were often coiled on belaying pins:

 

I never come across any complaints with this method of stowing.

 

 

But how many locks do they go through in an hour, where they need a line ready coiled and available for instant use, and where the point on the boat they need to attach to differs from one situation to another? The lines we needed when we worked pairs of freight boats were not the same as those we need now with our 24m barge on busy continental waterways, but the criteria that determine how we use them are the same; working lines are kept coiled readily available somewhere they are not going to get underfoot. They are kept the same place so they can be grabbed in a hurry without having to think where they were last left, and can be taken to wherever they are required, which will vary from situation to situation. Unnecessary lines are coiled and put away.

 

Others have already instanced why the tiller bar on something like a working narrowboat can catch on a lockside, tillerstrings notwithstanding - hold back hard for some reason and it can get away from you and swing hard over. Re shoe laces we do have a friend who did step on his while walking along the side decks of his barge and finished up in the Maas (a largish river in Holland). It is luck we still have him as a friend rather than a late friend. Ropes on decks are always looking for someone to trip up or to throw themselves overboard in search of the prop.

 

Just as there is no one type of boat or one cruising ground there is no one way to use ropes, but there are certain basics that do tend to apply if risk is to be minimised. One of Di's maxims is that the lines are every bit as important as the engine, and I have to agree (well I would, wouldn't I. )

 

Tam

[mayalld]

I think you are doing your risk assessment wrong. There are dangers and then there is the risk associated with it

 

E.g. When walking in the country there is a danger of getting struck by a meteorite. The risk is small

 

Richard

 

Actually Risk Assessment involves;

 

1) Identifying the Risk

2) Quantifying the Probability

3) Quantifying the Impact

The Product of 2 and 3, which are typically scored 1-5 is the risk score.

 

So a risk score of "1" is something that is very unlikely to happen, and will have minimal impact, a risk score of 25 is something that is very likely to happen, and will have extremely serious impact.

 

So, looking at the risk "Rope falls into water and goes round prop whilst not in use"

 

Assuming that the rope is on the tiller;

Probability: It isn't particularly likely, but we do hear of it happening, and we have already explored ways in which we can conceive it happening.Probability is 3

Impact: If it does happen, we know that the rope will rapidly wind onto the prop, becoming tight and possibly snapping. In the process, and body parts that are in the way will suffer possibly serious damage (including amputations and death), and mechanical damage will be caused to the engine. In the impact scale, serious injury to a single individual is a 4.

 

The risk score here is 12

 

Now, there is no pass/fail for risk scores, simply an objective to reduce them, but in general anything over 10 is regarded as high risk, and anything over 4 should be mitigated where possible.

 

Let us consider the alternative way of working, with the rope stored elsewhere.

Probabilty: It is difficult to see how the rope could end up round the prop (perhaps a freak gust of wind?) score = 1

Impact: In this case, because the rope isn't attached when blown in, it isn't about to come taut and slice anybody in two. Perhaps some bruising as it is take up by the prop Score =1

 

risk score = 1

[RLWP]

You are using risk where I have danger, and probability where I have risk - otherwise we have the same process

 

Richard

[Keeping Up]

When I was working we used to have risk assessments with a similar scale of 1-5 for probability and 1-5 for impact. The rules were that the numbers were multiplied together and if the total combined score of all identifiable risks came to 20 or greater, the action must not be performed.

 

The problem was that there was NO zero on either scale. One of my major proposals was scuppered because the head of a rival department to mine, submitted his own risk assessment of my scheme. His assessment included several things whose risk was minimal (ie score 1) but impact was high (ie score 5), such as the probability of a large hippopotamus suddenly materialising in the air directly above a group of workers and flattening them when it landed; score 1 x 5 = 5. It also included several things whose risk was high (ie score 5) but whose severity was minimal (ie score 1) such as the probability of it being a really nice day; score 5 x 1 = 5. By including a total of 6 such items he stated that the risk assessment of my scheme scored 30 points; the Board of Directors of course read only the headline numbers and cancelled my £20 million project just a few days before it was due to start !

 

No this isn't a joke, it really happened. It wasn't long afterwards that I took early retirement.

[rgreg]

 

Which proves that your RA isn't competently done.

 

1) It is not the case that there is "no" risk of it being knocked off. The design of the pin may well mean that it is less likely than with a simple staight pin.

2) Your RA seems not to have considered the possibility of gravity acting on a rope end causing it to flake down onto the counter and over the side.

3) Your RA hasn't considered the possibility of catching the rope and accidentally pulling a loop longer with the same effect

4) Your RA hasn't considered the possibility that the squirrel's tail will catch when deploying the rope.

It's good enough for me. I declare it safe, but as I said, each to their own and everyone I'm sure will benefit from your Risk Assessment Guidance in order for them to reach their own conclusions.

[mayalld]

It's good enough for me. I declare it safe, but as I said, each to their own and everyone I'm sure will benefit from your Risk Assessment Guidance in order for them to reach their own conclusions.

 

Actually, you have declared it to be safe under the "don't be bloody daft rule" because you have chosen to continue to do it, and you aren't about to let any objective view of the safety or otherwise sway you.

 

Declaring it to be safe doesn't actually make it safe. It simply means that you have decided to accept the level of risk (and as a private individual, you can do so).

 

You have declared it to be an acceptable (to you) risk.

[c c]

How many boaters have three beautifully worked rope ends of different lengths hanging down over the side and to the rear of the cabin roof, purely for decoration - and not know how they evolved, nor that they originally had an actual use?