Dispute at Pillings

[Mike Tee]

I've lost track a bit here - which company do the moorers have an agreement with?

[notaminga]

This makes interesting reading! Not saying anyone might be guilty of anything though, oh no!

 

Wrongful Trading (Section 214 Insolvency Act 1986)

You continue to trade when you knew or ought to have known that your company was insolvent and had little chance of recovery.

If found guilty a director will be required by the court to contribute to the assets of the company as compensation to those creditors who have suffered due to the wrongful trading.

The level of contribution is generally assessed on the extent to which the company’s financial position deteriorated since it was known or should have been known that it was insolvent with no reasonable prospects of avoiding insolvent liquidation.

A successful prosecution may also lead to action under the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986, seeking to prohibit you from acting as a company director for a period of between 1 and 15 years.

Defence against such an action would take the form of proving that every step was taken to avoid worsening the position of the creditors or indeed mitigating their loss.

 

Fraudulent Trading

You continue to trade with the intention of defrauding your creditors.

If found guilty penalties are the same as those incurred in wrongful trading. In addition however being found guilty of fraudulent trading may result in a limitless fine and / or imprisonment for up to 7 years.

[nicknorman]

This makes interesting reading! Not saying anyone might be guilty of anything though, oh no!

 

Wrongful Trading (Section 214 Insolvency Act 1986)

You continue to trade when you knew or ought to have known that your company was insolvent and had little chance of recovery.

If found guilty a director will be required by the court to contribute to the assets of the company as compensation to those creditors who have suffered due to the wrongful trading.

The level of contribution is generally assessed on the extent to which the company’s financial position deteriorated since it was known or should have been known that it was insolvent with no reasonable prospects of avoiding insolvent liquidation.

A successful prosecution may also lead to action under the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986, seeking to prohibit you from acting as a company director for a period of between 1 and 15 years.

Defence against such an action would take the form of proving that every step was taken to avoid worsening the position of the creditors or indeed mitigating their loss.

 

Fraudulent Trading

You continue to trade with the intention of defrauding your creditors.

If found guilty penalties are the same as those incurred in wrongful trading. In addition however being found guilty of fraudulent trading may result in a limitless fine and / or imprisonment for up to 7 years.

Yes, but it's funny how this rarely seems to be invoked.

[RLWP]

I was there, from a business point of view, as I have direct business involvement at Pillings twice a year, and so we, and our current customers, could be affected by a closure should it happen.

I do not feel it is appropriate for me to deliver any report however, sorry.

It was less than comfortable for many, and I did not feel reassured. That is all I will say however.

I hope the matter is resolved to the best effect for the moorers and leaseholders.

Thanks Ally, this must be very difficult for you

 

Richard

[Pillingsmoorer]

It was said that as the holding company made the agreement and the company has now gone into liquidation. There is no agreement and no debt.

[notaminga]

This might also be relevant:

 

Company Directors Disqualification Act (CDDA) 1986

A liquidator, administrator or administrative receiver is required to investigate and report on the conduct of all persons who were directors or shadow directors of the insolvent company during the 3 years prior to the date of insolvency.

The report may include some, all or none of the areas of misconduct detailed above. The investigation will also include, but not be limited to, director’s remuneration, compliance with company legislation including keeping proper accounts and cooperation with the insolvency practitioner in pursuit of his duties.

The report is submitted to the Disqualification Unit of the Insolvency Service, an agency of the Department of Trade and Industry where the decision whether to pursue an action for disqualification is made.

A successful action by the DTI will result in a person being disqualified from acting as a company director or being involved in the formation, promotion or management of a company for such period as the court decides.

[Ex- Member]

This makes interesting reading! Not saying anyone might be guilty of anything though, oh no!

 

Wrongful Trading (Section 214 Insolvency Act 1986)

You continue to trade when you knew or ought to have known that your company was insolvent and had little chance of recovery.

If found guilty a director will be required by the court to contribute to the assets of the company as compensation to those creditors who have suffered due to the wrongful trading.

The level of contribution is generally assessed on the extent to which the company’s financial position deteriorated since it was known or should have been known that it was insolvent with no reasonable prospects of avoiding insolvent liquidation.

A successful prosecution may also lead to action under the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986, seeking to prohibit you from acting as a company director for a period of between 1 and 15 years.

Defence against such an action would take the form of proving that every step was taken to avoid worsening the position of the creditors or indeed mitigating their loss.

 

Fraudulent Trading

You continue to trade with the intention of defrauding your creditors.

If found guilty penalties are the same as those incurred in wrongful trading. In addition however being found guilty of fraudulent trading may result in a limitless fine and / or imprisonment for up to 7 years.

 

Unfortunately it's rare anyone is prosecuted, it's difficult to prove intent, It's probably the only instance where playing dumb gets you out of being prosecuted for a crime

[AndrewIC]

I was always under the impression that voluntary liquidation meant you ceased trading but paid off all your debtors using remaining company assets.

The liquidator pays off as much of the debts as possible from the assets of the company. There is a list of "preferential creditors" who must be paid first (staff wages, for example, and liquidators fees!) then any unsecured creditors get whatever is left, pro-rata according to what they are owed. That doesn't mean the directors are necessarily in the clear - they may have personal liabilities, and may be pursued through the courts, or bankrupted, or debarred from being a director of any company. If there isn't enough money to go round, that's tough.

 

Company I worked for went into "voluntary" liquidation in 2009. It's still not fully resolved, these things can take years.

 

The foregoing is all generic based on my experience of being an ex employee and a creditor of another company, not necessarily representative of the situation at Pillings where there seem to be multiple linked companies involved.

[Ange]

 

Looking at it, it appears that Quorn Marina Holdings is the only Company that actually OWNS anything. Quorn Marina Properties presumably has a lease from QMH, and is the key trading entity that has sold leases, and which presumably also leases the remaining spots (thate aren't leased to individuals) to Pillings Lock Marina, which then takes income from moorers who aren't on a long term lease.

 

QMP has the NAA, and owes the money.

 

Now, as already noted, QMP has almost 2 million in assets (those assets will be the value of the lease that it has from QMH), but similar liabilities (being the value of the leases that it has granted to moorers and PLM).

 

When QMP liquidates, the liquidator will need to set a value on selling that lease to a new company, and QMH will need to sell at that price. The price will be low, because the liabilities that attach to the lease make it near worthless.

 

Effectively, QMP owns assets that are only useful to somebody who also owns QMH, so the only buyer would be QMP2

Did a bit of searching and Dave explains the company set up well.

[Alan de Enfield]

There is a difference between a person being declared Bankrupt and a company going into liquidation (a company cannot go bankrupt)

 

Lookin at the Gov website Voluntary liquidation :

 

".......voluntary liquidation if your company is ‘solvent’ (can pay its debts) and:

1) you want to retire or

2) you want to step down from the family business and nobody else wants to run it, or

3) the business has run its course

 

 

If you dont inted (or cannot) pay your debts then :

 

You (the director) can choose a "CREDITORS VOLUNTARY LIQUIDATION" if your company can’t pay its debts (‘insolvent’).

 

Shareholders can voluntarily liquidate the company by voting and passing a special resolution to stop trading.

 

Once the resolution has been passed, you must:

1) pass a resolution for voluntary winding up and send it to Companies House within 15 days

2) advertise the resolution in the London Gazette within 14 days, or the Edinburgh Gazette in Scotland

3) appoint an authorised insolvency practitioner as liquidator who will take charge of winding up the company

[RetiredLady]

I have been reading this forum post with interest, since a friend of my husband mentioned it to us. We are moored at Pillings Lock, but have been wary to post as a new member since some people seem to not trust new members views. We do not have much to do with Mr. Lillie, or his cafe and office, as my husband has been belittled by him on several occasions due to parking and other small matters.

 

However, we went to the meeting at Pillings this evening, heavily attended by leaseholders, moorers, and at least one member of the boating press, and felt that we had to shed some light on the matters discussed there.

 

Early on, a table of ladies were dining, not residents expecting a meeting, but they had booked dinner there as a celebration, not knowing all this was happening. They listened in horror, and when the bill came, the cards were put away and they left some cash on the table, saying to someone near them "We are just going to leave him what we want to pay". They walked out in disgust at what they had heard.

 

Questions were rapidly poised to Mr. Lillie about why the Naa fees weren't paid, where had the money gone, what was our position. One gent really tied him down, asking if he could pay just what he could afford for his mooring, as that was Mr. Lillies's way with cart!

 

Mr. Lillie couldn't answer many questions, especially from leaseholders with leases with QMP, who are now in liquidation. One leaseholder told me later that their leases are now worthless and non existent, but after having seeked legal advice, they will be taking him to court on that issue.

 

It wasn't reassuring. I left determined to look for another mooring very soon, and part with no more money to a clearly fraudulently minded man! Our problem remains though. PLM is the marina with the best facilities, flood protection, and venue of all the marinas within a days cruise. Unfortunately, it is spoiled by one person. Also, PLM is also the only marina within a days cruise that has any free berths.

 

RL.

[Gatesofrome]

I think that Paul said the company that is going into be voluntary liquidated is a Limted company, not sure if this would make the process any different !

 

As well as the boaters that may loose their home, I feel sorry for the couple that put so much money into Pillings, who seem to not know how the place has been run as they live abroad, seemed from the meeting they put the most money into the set up, again this is all so unclear.

[Ex- Member]

There is a difference between a person being declared Bankrupt and a company going into liquidation (a company cannot go bankrupt)

 

Lookin at the Gov website Voluntary liquidation :

 

".......voluntary liquidation if your company is ‘solvent’ (can pay its debts) and:

1) you want to retire or

2) you want to step down from the family business and nobody else wants to run it, or

3) the business has run its course

 

 

If you dont inted (or cannot) pay your debts then :

 

You (the director) can choose a "CREDITORS VOLUNTARY LIQUIDATION" if your company can’t pay its debts (‘insolvent’).

 

Shareholders can voluntarily liquidate the company by voting and passing a special resolution to stop trading.

 

Once the resolution has been passed, you must:

1) pass a resolution for voluntary winding up and send it to Companies House within 15 days

2) advertise the resolution in the London Gazette within 14 days, or the Edinburgh Gazette in Scotland

3) appoint an authorised insolvency practitioner as liquidator who will take charge of winding up the company

 

That's how I understood it. I was in a position of not being able to voluntarily liquidate, but I could have made my company bankrupt which I was advised to do. It would have saved me paying back debtors nigh on 30k I could have phoenixed the business and carried on with no debt for just a few grand.

 

Liquidators seem to positively promote bankruptcy or liquidation, of course they would, they get paid either way

[notaminga]

I have been reading this forum post with interest, since a friend of my husband mentioned it to us. We are moored at Pillings Lock, but have been wary to post as a new member since some people seem to not trust new members views. We do not have much to do with Mr. Lillie, or his cafe and office, as my husband has been belittled by him on several occasions due to parking and other small matters.

 

However, we went to the meeting at Pillings this evening, heavily attended by leaseholders, moorers, and at least one member of the boating press, and felt that we had to shed some light on the matters discussed there.

 

Early on, a table of ladies were dining, not residents expecting a meeting, but they had booked dinner there as a celebration, not knowing all this was happening. They listened in horror, and when the bill came, the cards were put away and they left some cash on the table, saying to someone near them "We are just going to leave him what we want to pay". They walked out in disgust at what they had heard.

 

Questions were rapidly poised to Mr. Lillie about why the Naa fees weren't paid, where had the money gone, what was our position. One gent really tied him down, asking if he could pay just what he could afford for his mooring, as that was Mr. Lillies's way with cart!

 

Mr. Lillie couldn't answer many questions, especially from leaseholders with leases with QMP, who are now in liquidation. One leaseholder told me later that their leases are now worthless and non existent, but after having seeked legal advice, they will be taking him to court on that issue.

 

It wasn't reassuring. I left determined to look for another mooring very soon, and part with no more money to a clearly fraudulently minded man! Our problem remains though. PLM is the marina with the best facilities, flood protection, and venue of all the marinas within a days cruise. Unfortunately, it is spoiled by one person. Also, PLM is also the only marina within a days cruise that has any free berths.

 

RL.

I don't think you could be accused of being a Paul Lillie sock puppet!

[nicknorman]

I have been reading this forum post with interest, since a friend of my husband mentioned it to us. We are moored at Pillings Lock, but have been wary to post as a new member since some people seem to not trust new members views. We do not have much to do with Mr. Lillie, or his cafe and office, as my husband has been belittled by him on several occasions due to parking and other small matters.

However, we went to the meeting at Pillings this evening, heavily attended by leaseholders, moorers, and at least one member of the boating press, and felt that we had to shed some light on the matters discussed there.

Early on, a table of ladies were dining, not residents expecting a meeting, but they had booked dinner there as a celebration, not knowing all this was happening. They listened in horror, and when the bill came, the cards were put away and they left some cash on the table, saying to someone near them "We are just going to leave him what we want to pay". They walked out in disgust at what they had heard.

Questions were rapidly poised to Mr. Lillie about why the Naa fees weren't paid, where had the money gone, what was our position. One gent really tied him down, asking if he could pay just what he could afford for his mooring, as that was Mr. Lillies's way with cart!

Mr. Lillie couldn't answer many questions, especially from leaseholders with leases with QMP, who are now in liquidation. One leaseholder told me later that their leases are now worthless and non existent, but after having seeked legal advice, they will be taking him to court on that issue.

It wasn't reassuring. I left determined to look for another mooring very soon, and part with no more money to a clearly fraudulently minded man! Our problem remains though. PLM is the marina with the best facilities, flood protection, and venue of all the marinas within a days cruise. Unfortunately, it is spoiled by one person. Also, PLM is also the only marina within a days cruise that has any free berths.

RL.

I feel sorry for you, it must be horrible. Interesting that all the other marinas in the area are full, we kind of know why now! Boating should be calming and relaxing so it seems to me the best option is to relocate, at least until PL is no longer around, even if it's a bit inconvenient.

[Alan de Enfield]

PLM is also the only marina within a days cruise that has any free berths.

 

RL.

It might not be what you want but it could be a 'short term' 'home'

 

Sawley Marina is only 5 hours (13 miles) cruise away from Pillings Lock and they have something like 100 vacancies

Edited January 24, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

All the surrounding marinas must be rubbing their hands in glee. They stand to win either way...

 

All the boats from Pillings forcing up demand so mooring rates go through the roof, OR if Paul Lillie gets away with it, all other marinas will pull the same stunt and wriggle out of paying their NAA fees in future too.

 

 

MtB

[Ange]

SNIP I have been reading this forum post with interest, since a friend of my husband mentioned it to us. We are moored at Pillings Lock, but have been wary to post as a new member since some people seem to not trust new members views. We do not have much to do with Mr. Lillie, or his cafe and office, as my husband has been belittled by him on several occasions due to parking and other small matters. SNIP

 

 

Welcome to the forum Retired Lady Unfortunately threads such as this bring forth a plethora of brand new members who may or may not be aliases or buddies of the offending parties - hence the suspicion and mistrust. Please continue to post - and I wish you all the best - it must be a horrible place to be right now.

 

PS had friends who moored at Sawley, not 100% happy but it's a lot better than PL! Not sure whether they have vacancies at the moment though.

[Ex- Member]

If I was to continue mooring there I would insist on paying monthly in arrears weather management agree or not

 

RetiredLady

 

 

I do sympathise, hope you haven't too much money tied up there, but I certainly wouldn't agree any kind of advance payment to the new company.

[Graham Davis]

Thank you and welcome, RetiredLady for a most erudite and helpful posting.

I hope you find somewhere to moor more genial.

[tony collins]

Back in the time when I was involved in business. If a customer went into receivership, closed and a phoenix company came about, we, as a supplier had the choice of swallowing the loss, pursuing our claim against the now defunct company usually in the vain hope of getting a settlement of xp in the £, then start trading with the new company under new terms. These were usually proforma invoice or c.o.d. Or we could refuse to deal with them at all and let what trade there was go to our competitors. The decision was made on the potential of the new company and whether we would ultimately get some of our lost trade back.

 

Every decision was made on the individual case, bearing in mind the amount of trade likely and the personalities and personal guarrantees involved. It has to be said that the customers of the defunct company often didn't know what had happened. They might have noticed (or not) a subtle difference in the name of the company. This could be simply adding a single word (say) to their title. So Acme Engineering Ltd., became Acme Engineering Services Ltd. The point was that this was and still is legal.

 

So CaRT have a decision to make about dealing with any possible new operating company. Is it worth dealing with them or not and if so, on what terms? The question of boat licence revenue is of little consequence, because if currently, the boats that never leave the marina don't have to have a licence, then nothing is lost. Those that do move in and out, would have to licence their boats anyway, they do not have to do it through the marina, unless it is part of their mooring conditions that they do. So the decision is purely on the reliability of the new company to make the necessary NAA payments on time and in full.

 

Incidentally on receivership, administration and liquidation. A company in the first two positions can be bought out as a whole. Receivers generally like to do this as it is preferable to them to have a single buyer. When that fails it is then that the liquidation normally happens. This would involve selling off everything from the buildings, the cars, to the office equipment. What the smart (if devious) cookies do is to make sure that the company owns nothing. They sell and lease back the buildings, contract hire the cars, even rent the furniture. So the ownership of all equipment, other than a few sundry items always belongs to someone else. Even some quite big companies do this, it is regarded as a legitimate business activity. If you reduce your Asset Base, it makes your profits look better on the balance sheet.

 

It looks as though the owners of the three companies involved in this case have got this covered. So the security (or otherwise) of someone renting a mooring at this marina, depends on whether CaRT will do business with the new company. In my view, the question of the lease holders is a different case. They MAY find themselves holding a lease for a mooring remote from the waterway it is meant to serve. In this situation, they may have a case for the defunct company (with no assets) to answer.

 

The marina owners agreed the business should pay the NAA before the first sod was cut. So it seems that they should have taken this into account

in their business plan. Someone running (say) a B&B would be very adventurous if they predicted every bed would be occupied on every night of the year, so their business expenses plan would have to reflect the possibility that they would not achieve full occupancy. The same could be said about building a marina.

 

No doubt we will see what happens some time in the future.

[Pillingsmoorer]

I hope it does get sorted out pillings lock is a lovely marina.time will tell.... One thing is for sure if I do have to leave (I don't think that will happen) I will become a continuous cruiser.

[Bettie Boo]

I have been reading this forum post with interest, since a friend of my husband mentioned it to us. We are moored at Pillings Lock, but have been wary to post as a new member since some people seem to not trust new members views.

 

RL.

Firstly - welcome to the forum, once you get settled in you will find it a wealth of information, help and at times a good laugh.

 

Please don't be put off by what you've read in this one topic; as for the new members who appeared to not be welcomed with open arms, I think you'll find that was a result of them either singing P Lillie's praises, so implying that he had been hard done by C&RT. After reading Mr. Lillies FB post to a couple of ex-moorers I don't think anyone here would go out on a limb to say he was a nice person. And as for his business dealings with C&RT, my opinion is quite similar to what you've said in your post; he signed a contract with C&RT, collected monies from folks like yourselves, but then neglected to fulfill contractual obligations to C&RT.

 

I think you'll find that our hearts go out to the people who find themselves in the situation which you are currently in. No one wants to see you loose your home, and I simply can't imagine what you must be going through this evening.

 

That thought is closely followed by; if Mr. Lillie does not pay up what is owed; will that then have a bearing on our license fees in years to come? Hence his underhanded actions will / could have a significant impact on your life style, it could potentially have an effect on mine as well. Obviously to a lesser degree.

 

I think that is one of the reasons people on the forum are so passionate in sharing their opinions on this topic.

[lampini]

 

I think you'll find that our hearts go out to the people who find themselves in the situation which you are currently in. No one wants to see you loose your home, and I simply can't imagine what you must be going through this evening.

 

That thought is closely followed by; if Mr. Lillie does not pay up what is owed; will that then have a bearing on our license fees in years to come? Hence his underhanded actions will / could have a significant impact on your life style, it could potentially have an effect on mine as well. Obviously to a lesser degree.

 

I think that is one of the reasons people on the forum are so passionate in sharing their opinions on this topic.

 

Rats - ran out of greenies - have a virtual one!

[Thorfast]

A Limited Company when in liquation, is run by the liquidator who is appointed. He controls all of the company assets and agreements....so he now holds the agreement between the company and Cart. Either he or Cart can cancel the agreement, or they can come to an agreement (as long as it is to the benefit of the creditors of the company. The liquidator is now the person that the moorers should be talking to....not the company directors.