Emergency Help Please!!!

[alright serry]

Hi,

 

Please can anyone help!

 

We recently purchased a 70ft narrowboat (2007) with a Barrus Shire 45 engine.

 

We have 4 ways in which we should get hot water from the boat which are listed as follows:

 

1. From the engine when running.

2. Eberspacher diesel system.

3. Log Burner and back boiler.

4. Immersion Heater

 

 

Problem 1

 

We are new to boating and have only just bought the boat which was built in 2007. The engine is a Barrus Shire 45 and the coolant system is plumbed to a twin calorifier at the centre of the boat. Circulation is aided by a pump in the engine bay. When the engine is running, the hot water in the calorifier does not get hot. The expansion tank in the engine bay is also staying cool.

 

Problem 2

 

The Eberspacher and Log burner are linked on one header tank separate to the engine header tank. When the eberspacher is running we get hot radiators ( 4 in total) but no hot water. The header tank is located in a wardrobe at the back of the boat which gets hot but with this system does not boil over.

 

Problem 3

 

If we light the log burner a pump which is located at the back of the burner starts pumping that is controlled by a heat temp switch I think its called which senses the pipe getting hot and sends a signal for the pump to work and a light illuminates to show this is working. However the header tank which is shared with the eberspacher system does not get hot and pressure builds forcing the liquid out the small outlet pipe of the top of the tank. We get no hot radiators or no hot water. The pump starts to make a loud noise and we have had to put out the fire.

 

We purchased the boat from a Marina who was acting as a brokerage for the vendor. We also paid over £800.00 for a full survey and this was not discovered. The Marina have just charged us £640.00 to relocate the old header tank from its location in the well deck to the wardrobe in the back of the boat as they said it was too low and have also replaced a pressure release valve and refilled with antifreeze and bled the system. This has failed to resolve the problem and the marina are now wanting over £2000 to re-pipe the whole boat!

 

Summary

 

We can only get hot water from the immersion heater.

Eberspacher heats radiators but again no hot water - expansion tank gets hot but doesn't overflow

Log burner does not heat water or radiators and header tank stays cold and the coolant is forced from top of bottle

Engine doe not heat water and header tank bottle stays cold - Marina have replaced a relay on the engine pump but this has failed to resolve the problem

 

Urgent Concern

 

I need to move the boat this weekend to its new mooring (7 hrs cruising) and from the reading I have been doing I am wondering if it is possible that it is one of the engine thermostats that has failed. Ours has 2 thermostats, one at 71 degrees and a second at 88 - IF it is a thermostat and i move the boat - is there a chance that the engine will overheat and seize??? How can i eliminate this being a problem before I move the boat or is it worth replacing them to be sure and safe?

 

Any help greatly appreciated - boat must move on Friday! We have had some helpful suggestions from Tony Brooks with regards to the first part of the email but the urgent concern bit only came to mind last night and made me worry a bit - Thanks in advance

 

Joanne

[Tony Brooks]

I think I might as well stop the email discussions on your problems and let you sort it out here. Thanks for your confidence in my help. Pity I replied to your last email.

[Paul C]

1. Are the engine coolant pipes to/from the calorifier getting warm or hot? It may need much more time, like 2 hours, before significant hot water is available.

 

2. Eber may be plumbed just to supply the radiators, or might have a valve somewhere to also do hot water. If so, its likely its feeing a twin coil calorifier, which may need more time to get it warm (like, a couple of hours again).

 

3. Dodgy pump, by the sounds of it. I dislike backboilers for this reason, if they need a pump then if that pump goes, the system is vulnerable and the stove needs shutting down, which isn't a quick process. You can configure them to be gravity fed though - but might need lots of plumbing and structural alterations to incorporate it.

 

I'd imagine the calorifier on a 70' boat is somewhat larger than our little calorifier (45' boat), hence the time delays involved in the water heating are part of the issues in testing.

 

I'd be checking coolant pipes to-from the calorifier and to-from the skin tank to reassure myself the engine cooling is about right. I suppose its always possible that both thermostats have stuck closed and will cause an issue, but its unlikely. I'd just try it but have a plan B if the engine cooling doesn't work and needs to be turned off.

PS whereabouts are you, and what kind of engine ie old/new, does it have a temperature gauge or a coolant high temp warning light?

[mark99]

How is the engine cooled? skin tank?

 

NB Our boat takes ages to get warm water using a boiler and that's with a full size domestic 240 volt diesel fired boiler - the rads are red hot and water cold - so I agree with above comment - it takes ages for calorifier to warm up water.

[Sir Nibble]

Your backboiler is full of air and needs bleeding.

[Tony Brooks]

To possibly save others duplicating efforts here is the full text of our communications, Oldest post lowest down:

 

Edited to remove qustioner's email address

 

Dear David

As I understand it the second thermostat has nothing to do with engine cooling other that it controls how much coolant is allowed to go to the calorifier. As you problems are only related to the calorifier circuits I doubt there will be any dangers in moving the boat. However keep a close eye on the temperature gauge. There may be an unknown amount of air in the calorifier circuit so there is a possibility that when you start revving the engine that air might get displaced back to the engine where one hopes it will rise into the engine header tank. This just might be enough to cause the engine to run low on coolant, but I doubt it will.

Unfortunately I do not have a Barrus manual or parts book so do not know exactly how those thermostats are placed in the engine. As long as the top hose running to the skin tank gets hot the cooling should be OK, whatever the second thermostat does.

Tony Brooks

www.TB-Training.co.uk

Mechanical & electrical support
for ordinary boaters

 

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: 'Tony Brooks'

Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 7:30 AM

Subject: RE: Water Heating

Hi Tony

 

Thanks for all your helpful advice, there is plenty to be trying this weekend.

 

I do need to move the boat from its marina to mooring this weekend and last night has a worrying thought that I am not sure is a problem but maybe you can advise me.

 

IF the problem with the engine hot water could be a thermostat (our Barrus Shire 45 has two thermostats – first one at 71 degrees second at 88) could a failure of the thermostat cause the engine to overheat and seize like a car when I move the boat? If so do you think this is a possibility and therefore worth me looking at / replacing before I move the boat. Is there a way I could eliminate this as a primary problem so I can safely move the boat and then carry on looking at the suggestions you have kindly given me about the systems?

 

The engine did run in static tickover at the marina for several hours on Friday although I cannot say i noticed what the water temp was but i didn’t see any obvious signs of any problem with the engine

 

Many thanks for your continued advice

 

Dave

 

From: Tony Brooks [mailto:Tony@tb-training.co.uk]
Sent: 02 December 2013 09:17
To: David
Subject: Re: Water Heating

 

Well, I still think the thudding noise is water boiling in the stove and it could well cause pressure pulses in the water that are transmitted to the pump and pipework. You have said nothing that counters this.

 

It is not that uncommon to have two domestic water pumps as you describe, often with a link pipe and valve so if one fails the other can do both jobs. This tends to be more common on hireboats. I would also comment that as long as the header tank level is slightly above the top of the highest bleed point its height is immaterial on a pumped system. All a low tank will do is to make bleeding more difficult.

 

Of course it is relevant that the calorifier is on the opposite side of the boat to the rest of the pipe runs. I suspect the engine to calorifier pipes also run on the radiator side. What this means is the pipes linking the calorifier to the radiator circuit probably run down to below floor level and back up or up to deckhead level and back down.Both are a recipe for airlocks. Again I repeat that the symptoms suggest that you have an airlock in both calorifier coils, especially as you have that extra pump on the engine circuit. Your first check must be to try to bleed the calorifier coils. As I said, I trust both coils are fitted with a bleed screw at their respective top connections. If they are it will be easy to bleed. If they are not it will be far harder.

 

On the domestic side make sure the header tank is at its normal level then loosen the upper union and waggle the pipe about to let any air out. Keep the header tank topped up with 30 to 60% antifreeze mixture. You may well have to do this several times over a period as pockets of air in the system find their way into the calorifier - hence the advisability for bleed screws. In fact if you were able to fit a length of upright pipe at that point with the bleed screw on it would tend to collect the air in the pipe rather than in the calorifier coil. It is also worth bleeding the radiators several times as they might collect air as well.

 

Whilst still on the domestic side, you need to make sure the radiators and calorifier are balanced properly. The circulating pump only has a finite output volume and if all the radiator valves are fully open they may pass all the water with little left to circulate through the calorifier - especially if it is even partially airlocked. Ideally the calorifier pipe will be fitted with a valve so you can control the flow through it. Having bled the system I would open this valve fully (if you have one but don't worry if not) and close all the radiator valves. Use the Eberspacher to heat the water so it can not boil and start feeling all the pipes. The calorifier pipes should start to get hot. Once they are up too temperature open each radiator valve by (say) 1/8th of a turn and see how hot they all get. If any do not get hot or are consistently cooler than the others open the relevant valve another 1/8 turn. You may have to start closing the calorifier's valve (if fitted) to get hot water to all the radiators. There should be two valves on each radiator, the one you can turn and on the other side one with a pull-off plastic cap. This one is known as a lock shield valve and these are the ones you really should adjust (the normal valves should all be fully open).

 

Now the engine calorifier circuit. Make sure the engine header tank is higher than the calorifier coil connection. If not the tank will need moving. Get the engine up to temperature with the extra pump working and loosen the higher of the two coil connections to release any trapped air. If after that calorifier pipes still will not get hot you will have to do the below.

 

Because of your extra thermostat you will have to do this on a hot running engine so take great care. You will also need an assistant to keep the engine header tank filled. Locate the place where the calorifier return joins the main cooling circuit, loosen the clip and make sure you can easily pull the hose off. If its a proper union loosen it and make sure the pipe part can move. Then tighten it all back up and get the engine up to temperature. See if you can get a container into the bilge ready to catch coolant. When the engine is up to temperature turn the extra pump on (if it has not come on by itself), set the engine to between 1200 and 1500 rpm and take that connection apart. As it comes apart block the engine side. I usually use my thumb but as you have to do it on a hot engine you may need to put several layers of rag or something between your thumb and the hole. Direct the other side into the container. Wait for several seconds to see if any air is expelled with the water. How long depends upon the length of pipe run to and from the calorifier. While you do this the assistant tops up the header tank so the engine does not run out of coolant. Then replace and tighten everything up.

 

I trust the extra engine circulating pump is rated for use at above 90C. Have you, yourself checked that this pump is running when the engine is hot?

 

The Eberspacher has its own circulating pump so the pump connected with the stove may be faulty. The impellor may have broken away or if it has a magnetic drive the impellor may be jammed. Both would allow it to vibrate with the motor running but not circulate water. All I can suggest is that you remove and inspect it.

 

 

Pumps used to circulate water are usually of the centrifugal type and these can block with rust scale and will not work if the pumping chamber get air in it so they need a way of venting air from the chamber. Loosening and manipulating the output side hose often does this.

 

Tony Brooks

 

www.TB-Training.co.uk

 

Mechanical & electrical support
for ordinary boaters

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From:

To: 'Tony Brooks'

Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2013 7:32 PM

Subject: RE: Water Heating

 

Hi Tony,

 

Thank you for such a quick response, I will have to get more information for you. I have been told that the systems are more complex than they need to be for example we have 2. water pumps from the cold water tank 1 for hot and 1 for cold.!!!

 

Engine Hot Water Problem

 

The engine definitely does have the extra thermostat you refer to and also has a small pump with some sort of relay . The circulation pump has been fused and is running direct from the bus bar in the electrical cupboard. The calorifier is approximately around 30ft from the engine and so the pump apparently has been fitted to circulate the coolant to the calorifier because it is so far away. When the marina looked at this on Thursday they said that the relay was faulty and replaced it and said that it was now getting very hot water without a problem. We went to the boat on Friday and the engine was running for about 5 hrs and no hot water.

 

Log Burner Back Boiler Problem.

 

The reason the marina fitted a new header tank at the back of the boat was because they said the old one was too low. The old one was fitted outside in the front of the boat at the same level of the log burner. It is now at the back of the boat high up with 2 long vertical pipes. There is a thermostat switch connected to the back pipe on the boiler which is set at just below 20 degrees. Within 2 -3 minutes of the burner being lit this activates the pump which does vibrate but as the fire burns more then makes a thumping noise which is from the pump as I have felt this in my hand. It feels as if the pump is trying to pump but is against resistance and I think this is the thudding noise. There is as you say also a boiling and bubbling noise as well. The first thing the coolant from the back boiler would get to is the calorifier before then circulating to the radiators.

I think the coolant is somehow not able to get through the calorifier and so is therefore not circulating.

 

Eberspacher.

 

The Eberspacher works off the same header tank as the Log burner and this heats up 4 radiators very well. The location of these are 1 in rear cabin ,1bathroom towel rail approximately 4 ft from first Radiator, next in single bedroom and one in corridor. The first 3 radiators are all before the calorifier from the back of the boat and the 4^th radiator is just past the calorifier. I don’t know if it is of relevance but all the radiators are on the opposite side of the boat to the calorifier and the main pipe work that runs down the boat. The Eberspacher has to go through the radiators before getting to the calorifier and there is a Thermostat which is the same type that is fitted around the pipe on the log burner pipe.

 

Dont know if this is any use to you.

 

Kind Regards

 

David

From: Tony Brooks [mailto:Tony@tb-training.co.uk]
Sent: 01 December 2013 16:51
To: David
Subject: Re: Water Heating

 

Straight off I can say that words alone are probably not enough to sort this out, I may need a sketch or plan of the system and possibly more information.

 

I am going to assume that the system is set out in a fairly conventional way with the header tank at the top of near vertical feed pipe. If this is the case it should not get hot when any of the systems are running because there is nothing to get an hot water up to it. Expansion in the system as the water heats up may push some hot water into the fill pipe and just possibly after a very long period of running convection might start to push a very small amount of hot water into the tank. If there is any significant horizontalish runs in the fill pipe any heating effect will be less. I do not think the expansion tank staying cool has any significance at this time.

 

1. I think some Barrus engines have an extra thermostat that is supposed to stop engine coolant circulating to the calorifier while the engine is warming up. Is your engine like this (look in the manual) and if so is that thermostat working? The further away from the engine the calorifier is the more difficult it will be for the engine to push hot water into the calorifier. For this reason calorifiers are usually fitted close to the engine. There is also question over how much heat is lost in the pipe run to the calorifier. Some people fit the calorifier take off on the skintank side of the engine thermostat. This can give very weak circulation to the calorifier and if it is some way away it might stop circulation all together. Often you get an airlock in the calorifier engine circuit, especially with long "wavy" hose runs. Has the calorifier engine circuit been properly bled? It may help if you can send me a photo of the engine and indicate exactly where the calorifier pipes are attached.

 

2. The Eberspacher has its own water thermostat so it shuts down before the water in the system boils. This is why you do not get hot water spitting out of the overflow. This is normal. Often a valve is fitted that allows the radiators to be isolated from the eberspacher (or stove) so you can get hot water in the summer without having hot radiators. Please check to see if you have one. It might not be correctly fitted. I also suspect that this calorifier coil has air in it and needs bleeding. I would hope a bleeder has been fitted on the highest pipe union.

 

3. See comment 1 about the header tank temperature. If no water circulates in the system a stove will boil the water causing fairly loud noises (kettling and banging) and hot water & steam will be ejected from the overflow. This normal when no pump is running on a pumped system. I suspect your noise is not the pump but boiling water in the stove. A light may only mead electricity is being supplied to the pump and does not prove the pump is running. You need to set the thermostat on the pipe to minimum and feel the pump. If it does not eventually vibrate a little it is not running. You could try hitting it with the heel of a gent's shoe to see if it starts running. I suspect if you can get the pump running the boiling will stop providing the system has been properly bled. You could just join the two wires running to the thermostat to see if the pump runs.

 

The more complicated the system the longer it can take to bleed. I am far from convinced the marina bled the system properly - there could even be an airlock in the pump. That will stop it circulating even if it is running.

 

Feel free to come back.

 

Tony Brooks

Edited December 3, 2013 by Tony Brooks

[PaddingtonBear]

What is wrong with a kettle?

[Athy]

As Joanne stated, it is a Barrus Shire 45.

 

Although I can see that the incorrect functioning of some of your boat's fitments is irksome, where is the "emergency" here? You say that you can get hot water from the immersion heater; why do you need three other ways of heating it?

 

Sir Nibble, your post looks just like a quotation from one of those English phrase books for foreigners.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Athy

[mark99]

I think the op is not worried so much about hot water but siezing the engine.

 

Let's remember they are new to boating, big first trip on own boat, feeling ripped off maybe by boatyard or at least dissapointed, frustrated, bad nights sleep.

 

I can understand.

Edited December 3, 2013 by mark99

[Paul C]

Yeah sounds like airlock(s).

 

I'd advise to give no money to the marina, and to take the time to suss out the system yourself and fix it properly yourself.

[pquinn]

turn of the radiators and see if the eberspacher heats the water. paul

[lampini]

I think the op is not worried so much about hot water but siezing the engine.

 

Let's remember they are new to boating, big first trip on own boat, feeling ripped off maybe by boatyard or at least dissapointed, frustrated, bad nights sleep.

 

I can understand.

 

I ran out of greenies but here's a virtual one!

[Phoenix_V]

ask the previous owner?

[alright serry]

Hi everyone, tony i am very sorry if I have upset you. I posted this, not my husband before you replied as he has been worried about the engine seizing up potential and I wanted to try and make sure I found out about this today. I have just seen your response thank you I know he has been very grateful for your help which is why I added to the bottom of the initial posting that we had received some very helpful advice from you. I know he is going to try out some of your suggestions bug just needs to move the boat first. . It was just the seizing up potential that I wanted help on. I am sure we don't need to worry about that now having read your email. Mark99 is right that we have spent a huge amount of money on buying the boat, have little left, feel ripped off by the marina, frustrated. Disappointed and no sleep all rolled into one!

 

It's hard to think we tried to do everything by the book, full survey etc and still end up in a mess

 

Sorry again if I offended you and many thanks for all the help

 

Joanne

[Proper Job]

What is wrong with a kettle?

Nothing wrong with a kettle

 

When in doubt, put it on

[Tony Brooks]

Hi everyone, tony i am very sorry if I have upset you. I posted this, not my husband before you replied as he has been worried about the engine seizing up potential and I wanted to try and make sure I found out about this today. I have just seen your response thank you I know he has been very grateful for your help which is why I added to the bottom of the initial posting that we had received some very helpful advice from you. I know he is going to try out some of your suggestions bug just needs to move the boat first. . It was just the seizing up potential that I wanted help on. I am sure we don't need to worry about that now having read your email. Mark99 is right that we have spent a huge amount of money on buying the boat, have little left, feel ripped off by the marina, frustrated. Disappointed and no sleep all rolled into one!

 

It's hard to think we tried to do everything by the book, full survey etc and still end up in a mess

 

Sorry again if I offended you and many thanks for all the help

 

Joanne

 

No problem.

 

I will email a fuller reply.

 

Cheers

[Paul C]

Hi everyone, tony i am very sorry if I have upset you. I posted this, not my husband before you replied as he has been worried about the engine seizing up potential and I wanted to try and make sure I found out about this today. I have just seen your response thank you I know he has been very geful for your help which is why I added to the bottom of the initial posting that we had received some very helpful advice from you. I know he is going to try out some of your suggestions bug just needs to move the boat first. . It was just the seizing up potential that I wanted help on. I am sure we don't need to worry about that now having read your email. Mark99 is right that we have spent a huge amount of money on buying the boat, have little left, feel ripped off by the marina, frustrated. Disappointed and no sleep all rolled into one!

 

It's hard to think we tried to do everything by the book, full survey etc and still end up in a mess

 

Sorry again if I offended you and many thanks for all the help

 

Joanne

 

Don't worry you're not "in a mess". Its just that your boat has a minor issue with its water/space heating. You are, however, very vulnerable to marina workshops etc taking your money needlessly. I'd STRONGLY recommend that you find out how your boat systems work and learn how to fix it yourself, not only will it save considerable money but if it goes wrong or needs attention in the future, you'll be much better informed.

[Tuscan]

Agree a call to the former owner would also be a good call

[Chop!]

As Joanne stated, it is a Barrus Shire 45.

 

Although I can see that the incorrect functioning of some of your boat's fitments is irksome, where is the "emergency" here? You say that you can get hot water from the immersion heater; why do you need three other ways of heating it?

 

Sir Nibble, your post looks just like a quotation from one of those English phrase books for foreigners.

Athy, everyone has to start somewhere and it's very nerve-wracking when all your savings have been tied up in an unknown boat.

 

David & Joanne. Welcome to the forum.

We know exactly how you feel, even though we spent a lot less for our pair than you paid for your 70 footer.

The marina where we bought ours, put our motor back into water a day early and didn't grease the stern gland so we ended up with water up over our starter motor Grrrr!

I asked them to service it but not try to start it until they had filled it with diesel. They 'serviced' it and then started it and left it running on what turned out to be 15 litres of diesel/sludge/bug Grrr!

So it was that I worried myself sick before we tackled bringing them 150 miles to the Nene.

I had never steered a pair, had had little help from the former owners so we knew very little about how anything worked.

We almost lost our Motor when she caught fire.

Broke down hundreds of times and overheated (just took the head off and had it skimmed) But we made it and we're chuffed to beans that we took the plunge.

I've learned a lot. And can now fix a lot of things myself.

Take your time, watch your temperature gauge, keep an eye on the water level in your engine header, make plenty of stops and check for leaks, steam etc. Better to arrive a bit later than rush and maybe cause a problem to develop.

Presumably, once you have left the marina the heat will be off (no pun intended)

The best of luck!

Safe & happy boating.

 

Chop & Glenda

[by'eck]

This should help in sorting the engine heating problem. Note its the first lower temp thermostat that opens after direct bypass has allowed quick engine warm up, in turn providing hot coolant to calorifier coil. In cold weather the second higher temp thermostat may never open. In any case the header tank has no flow through it which may explain why it appears cool.

 

Full engine manual here

 

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks By'eck

 

Usefull info.

[bizzard]

It sounds like your main priority is to move the boat to its new mooring, so I'd first of all make sure that the engine is being cooled properly. This would mean running it in gear for an hour or so at about 1/2 throttle to ensure it doesn't overheat, whilst checking and topping up with coolant if necessary.

[bizzard]

In my experience Eber-Web's don't like working in conjunction ''plumbed into'' the same circuit as solid fuel stove back boilers, sooner or later there's always trouble which seems to really upset the Eber-Web's and make them unreliable in future as well as frequent air generation in the system requiring regular bleeding.

Personally if it were mine I'd re-plumb the system remove the stoves back boiler and use it without and just use the engine and Eber to heat the water and run the heating.

Edited December 3, 2013 by bizzard

[Jim Riley]

Re engine thermostats, in the old days they used to break "shut", so causing engine to overheat. Don't they now break "open" so the engine or calorifier just takes longer to warm up? I do recall testing them in a pan of hot water. If they do break shut then take them out, engine then won't overheat.

[Neil2]

Re engine thermostats, in the old days they used to break "shut", so causing engine to overheat. Don't they now break "open" so the engine or calorifier just takes longer to warm up? I do recall testing them in a pan of hot water. If they do break shut then take them out, engine then won't overheat.

That's my understanding too, but if you're not 100% sure why not just remove the thermostat(s) when you move the boat? Or is it not that simple?