What Length of Ropes and is there a best type

[LadyG]

Deleted

Edited September 6, 2022 by LadyG

[Ronaldo47]

I was taught on a rock climbing course that a figure-of-eight knot is the only one that will reliably hold on synthetic ropes. It doesn't significantly affect breaking strength either, but is bulky.  

[LadyG]

On 06/09/2022 at 11:25, Ronaldo47 said:

I was taught on a rock climbing course that a figure-of-eight knot is the only one that will reliably hold on synthetic ropes. It doesn't significantly affect breaking strength either, but is bulky.  

Horses for courses. I never use a figure of eight on mooring ropes or centrelines, I want them to run freely and not stop.

I've sailed for forty years or so, and used a figure of eight for certain purposes, say on dingies,  but when offshore racing big yachts, rarely. 

I don't have back splices either though they look pretty on white dangly canal ropes.

Figure of eight is a stopper knot, there are others, but this one is easy to learn and will stop ropes running through a block, which I assume is why it is used in rock climbing, I'd not use it to support my body weight, it's too easily undone.

Edited September 13, 2022 by LadyG

[ditchcrawler]

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Horses for courses. I never use a figure of eight on mooring ropes or centrelines, I want them to run freely and not stop.

I've sailed for forty years or so, and used a figure of eight for certain purposes, say on dingies,  but when offshore racing big yachts, rarely. 

I don't have back splices either though they look pretty on white dangly canal ropes.

I fully agree with you, the ends of my lines are just whipped 

[Jerra]

43 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Horses for courses. I never use a figure of eight on mooring ropes or centrelines, I want them to run freely and not stop.

I've sailed for forty years or so, and used a figure of eight for certain purposes, say on dingies,  but when offshore racing big yachts, rarely. 

I don't have back splices either though they look pretty on white dangly canal ropes.

Figure of eight is a stopper knot, there are others, but this one is easy to learn and will stop ropes running through a block, which I assume is why it is used in rock climbing, I'd not use it to support my body weight, it's too easily undone.

Not so.  Look at climbing.com

 

 Climbers use various knots to tie in, but the Trace-Eight is the easiest to learn and the least likely to untie itself. Unfortunately, it cinches up tight after a hard fall, making it difficult to untie. Consider this a small price to pay for security. Practice this knot until you can tie it, rain or shine, in the dark.

[Ronaldo47]

My recollection from more than 40 years ago is that it is the property of the breaking strength of a figure of 8 knot being little, if any,  different from the breaking strength of the rope itself, that makes it attractive to rock climbers, as well as its non-slip property. For virtualiy all other knots, if a rope with a knot in it is tested to destruction, it will always fail at the knot.  That was why our instructors strongly  emphasised that ropes should always be carefully checked before use to ensure no knots were present.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Ronaldo47
typos

[gatekrash]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

Not so.  Look at climbing.com

 

 Climbers use various knots to tie in, but the Trace-Eight is the easiest to learn and the least likely to untie itself. Unfortunately, it cinches up tight after a hard fall, making it difficult to untie. Consider this a small price to pay for security. Practice this knot until you can tie it, rain or shine, in the dark.

Agreed  In that instance it's almost certainly being tied on a bight to provide a terminal eye at a rope end to allow attachment onto a line via krab rather than as a stopper knot.

 

It's a standard knot we use every day on rope rescue systems. We tend to use blood knots for stoppers, not figure 8s. We also use alpine butterflies which allow a 3 way pull on a line and which can easily be tied anywhere along the length of the line.

 

Can't say I use any of them on a canal. Round turn and 2 half hitches, yes, but they don't belong anywhere in our rope rescue work.

 

[Ronaldo47]

Can't say I've ever needed them on the canals either. 

 

One year, the boat we hired only had one long line, the other being a short one that was OK for mooring up to the  boatyard pontoon, but no use for the deep locks on our route. I bought a suitably long rope at the next chandlery,   spliced an eye in one end and whipped the other, and got reimbursed when we returned.   My father had showed me how to splice and whip  when I was a child. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Ronaldo47
typos

[Jerra]

35 minutes ago, gatekrash said:

Agreed  In that instance it's almost certainly being tied on a bight to provide a terminal eye at a rope end to allow attachment onto a line via krab rather than as a stopper knot.

 

It's a standard knot we use every day on rope rescue systems. We tend to use blood knots for stoppers, not figure 8s. We also use alpine butterflies which allow a 3 way pull on a line and which can easily be tied anywhere along the length of the line.

 

Can't say I use any of them on a canal. Round turn and 2 half hitches, yes, but they don't belong anywhere in our rope rescue work.

 

I climbed for years clipping a figure of eight into the harness and I am still alive.  I was rather puzzled by " I'd not use it to support my body weight, it's too easily undone."

 

I have never known a figure of eight come undone.  Have you?

[tree monkey]

On 06/09/2022 at 11:25, Ronaldo47 said:

I was taught on a rock climbing course that a figure-of-eight knot is the only one that will reliably hold on synthetic ropes. It doesn't significantly affect breaking strength either, but is bulky.  

That was likely an instructor making his/her life easier, the advantage with a figure of 8 is it's easy to spot a badly/wrongly tied knot, a bowline is a perfectly acceptable knot in rock climbing 

15 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I climbed for years clipping a figure of eight into the harness and I am still alive.  I was rather puzzled by " I'd not use it to support my body weight, it's too easily undone."

 

I have never known a figure of eight come undone.  Have you?

Tied and dressed properly no but I've never seen a bowline undo itself either and I always climbed on a bowline with the advantage it can be undone after a fall and I took a fair few swings when working in the trees

[Rob-M]

I always used a figure of 8 when rock climbing, either tied with a loop and clipped in a karabiner or a single 8 tied, end fed through the harness and then follow round the 8 to complete the knot.

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

That was likely an instructor making his/her life easier, the advantage with a figure of 8 is it's easy to spot a badly/wrongly tied knot, a bowline is a perfectly acceptable knot in rock climbing 

When I started back in the early 60s bowlines were the preferred knot then over the years it changed until it was virtually all figure of eights.

4 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Tied and dressed properly no but I've never seen a bowline undo itself either and I always climbed on a bowline with the advantage it can be undone after a fall and I took a fair few swings when working in the trees

I always tried not to "take swings" on a rock face, I found it generally hurt.

[tree monkey]

1 minute ago, Rob-M said:

I always used a figure of 8 when rock climbing, either tied with a loop and clipped in a karabiner or a single 8 tied, end fed through the harness and then follow round the 8 to complete the knot.

Exactly how it is taught and it does seem to be fairly standard now, still prefer a bowline

Just now, Jerra said:

When I started back in the early 60s bowlines were the preferred knot then over the years it changed until it was virtually all figure of eights.

I always tried not to "take swings" on a rock face, I found it generally hurt.

Swings in tree work is fairly normal, falls less so, in fact as the ropes are "static" falls hurt

[gatekrash]

49 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

I always used a figure of 8 when rock climbing, either tied with a loop and clipped in a karabiner or a single 8 tied, end fed through the harness and then follow round the 8 to complete the knot.

We use rethreaded figure 8s for setting up anchor points around the bottom of trees or urban anchors etc, in exactly the same way.

 

47 minutes ago, Jerra said:

When I started back in the early 60s bowlines were the preferred knot then over the years it changed until it was virtually all figure of eights.

I always tried not to "take swings" on a rock face, I found it generally hurt.

I think the Coastguard moved away from bowlines when they did away with breeches buoys and rocket lines (mid 80s ish ?), and the cliff rescue side got more technical. It was certainly all on figure 8s when I started in the late 90s.

One of the guys in our team is old enough to remember being lowered over a cliff on a piece of manilla with a single bowline around his waist and ten dockyard mateys holding on to the other end. Nowadays H&S and LOLER regs are so tight we can't go anywhere near a cliff without 2 lines attached and anchor points which are 'unquestionably safe'.

 

[LadyG]

On 01/10/2013 at 20:27, Neil2 said:

That's exactly what it is.

My centre eye is massive but has edges which would cut a rope, I have a green pin bow ie not D shackle, and have two centrelines with round turns and two half hitches. 

[thomas.simmons]

When it comes to choosing ropes for your narrowboat, you should consider the material. Generally, nylon or polyester ropes are popular choices for boating due to their durability and resistance to UV rays and moisture. They also have good stretch and shock-absorption properties. Among these two, nylon is known for its elasticity, while polyester is more resistant to abrasion and has lower stretch.

[agew]

Wow, not been here for ages, busy fitting out sail away.  Perhaps (?!) 90% done.

 

Anyway, love this thread - suitably convinced to get 15m polyester 14mm for longer centre line.

 

Just desperately wondering what happened to OP over many years….?? ;-)

[Captain Pegg]

6 minutes ago, agew said:

Wow, not been here for ages, busy fitting out sail away.  Perhaps (?!) 90% done.

 

Anyway, love this thread - suitably convinced to get 15m polyester 14mm for longer centre line.

 

Just desperately wondering what happened to OP over many years….?? 😉

 

 

Personally I’d find that too much rope to handle comfortably and keep ship shape in general.

Unless you have big hands and good discipline you’ll likely find it prone to getting under your feet, dragging through mud and water and generally leaving dirty marks along your cabin sides.

But I guess you can always shorten it.

 

 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, agew said:

Wow, not been here for ages, busy fitting out sail away.  Perhaps (?!) 90% done.

 

Anyway, love this thread - suitably convinced to get 15m polyester 14mm for longer centre line.

 

Just desperately wondering what happened to OP over many years….?? 😉

 

I expect 15m is also long enough to get your own centre line wrapped round your own prop. Nobody thinks this will happen to them, until it does... 😉

[magnetman]

Staplespun polypropylene. It floats and is durable. 

 

I took the lead from the fact that the Thames tugs (upstream above Teddington) use this type of rope. 

 

Staple is much stronger than the split film blue rubbish. 

 

It doesn't stretch much but stretch can be something which you don't want on canal boats. 

 

Whatever you use make sure the rope will part before breaking pieces of metal hardware off the boat. 

 

 

 

[IanD]

46 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Staplespun polypropylene. It floats and is durable. 

 

I took the lead from the fact that the Thames tugs (upstream above Teddington) use this type of rope. 

 

Staple is much stronger than the split film blue rubbish. 

 

It doesn't stretch much but stretch can be something which you don't want on canal boats. 

 

Whatever you use make sure the rope will part before breaking pieces of metal hardware off the boat. 

 

 

A good idea but difficult to test, for obvious reasons... 😉

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

A good idea but difficult to test, for obvious reasons... 😉

I know that my fixing points on Parglena were stronger than the ropes. I drove out of Town Lock on the River Wey without releasing my stern line, as it snapped it came whistling past my ear😱

 

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

I know that my fixing points on Parglena were stronger than the ropes. I drove out of Town Lock on the River Wey without releasing my stern line, as it snapped it came whistling past my ear😱

 

Better than the alternative which is a poorly-welded dolly or T-stud still attached to the rope departing at high speed... 😉

 

(yes I know it would probably be going in the opposite direction to you...)

Edited September 25, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

I'm looking for the @Chris J W thread about his injury from a non breaking rope. 

 

Not sure what search terms to use but it struck me (pun intended) as a very nasty situation. 

 

 

 

Here it is 

 

 

 

 

worth reading this one as it is educational and quite shocking. 

 

 

I liked this from Bristol and Argo (not sure if they are still on the cut) 

 

"

Que discussion on how everyone should be using 'dead' ropes on boats, rather than ones with the properties of an elastic band.

The stored energy potential is frightening as you unfortunately found out, who can work out the energy of say 10tonnes decellerated to zero from 1mhp, suddenly given the opportunity to accellerate 0.001 tonnes(figure wildly guessed) of metal ring, so that everyone will realise why they shouldn't stand in line with a taught rope."

 

 

Good bit of math work. 

 

 

[agew]

We’re doomed Captain Mainwaring, doomed…..

 

Thanks, yes duly warned of rope/prop interface.  My plan is to use the current 10m almost always, then show off the 15m in deep lock and similar territory.  
 

Big hands, big discipline here, definitely……. Cheers