Invertor Use - best practice?

[Hawkmoth]

But what about when we lose red diesel and it costs £1.60 a lt to fill your tank

I think there'll be a lot of boats for sale, possibly a black market for fuel.

Steam boats anybody?

[nicknorman]

But what about when we lose red diesel and it costs £1.60 a lt to fill your tank

Well 2 different things there

 

If we lose red diesel, its £1.30something

 

If fuel costs go up, then its £1.60, but then its likely that gas costs will rise too

 

So for the former, it shifts the balance towards gas, the latter doesn't.

 

What happens when the oil/gas runs out? We will have to rub 2 boy scouts together to make fire!

 

However its interesting to note Chris says 35p per day which is £127 per year, a trivial cost in the great scheme of things even if it were doubled.

Edited July 5, 2013 by nicknorman

[ditchcrawler]

Well 2 different things there

 

If we lose red diesel, its £1.30something

 

If fuel costs go up, then its £1.60, but then its likely that gas costs will rise too

 

So for the former, it shifts the balance towards gas, the latter doesn't.

 

What happens when the oil/gas runs out? We will have to rub 2 boy scouts together to make fire!

 

However its interesting to note Chris says 35p per day which is £127 per year, a trivial cost in the great scheme of things even if it were doubled.

Only the likes of Tesco can do it for £1.36 Any independents canal side will have to charge more than that to make it pay.

[mark99]

Only the likes of Tesco can do it for £1.36 Any independents canal side will have to charge more than that to make it pay.

Don't write them off..........those bleeders get everywhere.

[Chris Pink]

Because the various consumers of gas you have all have differing efficiencies in terms of energy delivered to the end product. The equivalents in electricity have other differing efficiencies. So if you know anything about solving simultaneous equations, you'll know its not possible to give you a solution without knowing the amount of energy you require for each element, and since the best detail you have given us is "some tea" " some cooking" and "some hot water" we don't have the necessary information. It reminds me of when my 90 year old mother phones me up to say that her computer produced an error message. When I ask her what the error message said, she can't remember. Are you 90?

 

Ps electric: adjective

Electricity: noun

 

But the invariant Nick is that it costs me 12p per kwh. it doesn't matter how much tea, cooking or hot water.

 

I am asking you, and you'll notice that it's you that are struggling with the sums as Smiley Pete came up with a fairly convincing analysis, how much that same kwh would cost in electricity. I don't care whether you use it to make tea or run your vibrator.

 

But you are now irrelevant to this discussion. It has moved on. The issue has been answered and those that don't like the answer have either thrown up their 90 year old mothers as a smokescreen or gone off in a hissy fit.

 

to recap: 12p per kwh gas (19kg) 24p per kwh (6kg) 80p - £1 per kwh diesel

[Tuscan]

But what about when we lose red diesel and it costs £1.60 a lt to fill your tank

Then just like with old range rovers surely you will get your boat gas converted for both propulsion, heating and light. Or better still get an old butty free storage space inside and a solar array on the outside. Passing boaters can be charged to moor alongside for a battery top up. Come on Bizzard we can do this.....

[nicknorman]

to recap: 12p per kwh gas (19kg) 24p per kwh (6kg) 80p - £1 per kwh diesel

You carry on believing that old chap, no skin of my nose if you are following the classic human psychological trick of adjusting the facts and figures to suit your preconceived ideas. The rest of us will continue to carry out a proper analysis where the truth is more important than the point-scoring.

[Chris Pink]

You carry on believing that old chap, no skin of my nose if you are following the classic human psychological trick of adjusting the facts and figures to suit your preconceived ideas. The rest of us will continue to carry out a proper analysis where the truth is more important than the point-scoring.

 

You've had plenty of opportunity to put your "proper analysis" where your mouth is but have singularly failed to come up with one so without any coherent challenge those figures are the most authoritative so far.

 

When I challenged Hissy-fit Paul's figure of 90p per kwh for gas it wasn't for your benefit. I already know you're incapable of thinking outside your narrow box. It was for the benefit of the earlier poster who had asked me to explain post #5.

[nicknorman]

I think the forum can judge who is using science, maths and logic who is just being antagonistic for the sake of attention-seeking.

Edited July 6, 2013 by nicknorman

[ditchcrawler]

I think the forum can judge who is using science, maths and logic who is just being antagonistic for the sake of attention-seeking.

Who on earth are you talking about nick?

[GUMPY]

well this morning DLW made toast using the toaster and each slice used 1.1% of my battery capacity (360ah) and tonight the batteries are magically back at 100% for a cost of almost nothing, I have also got a tank of hot water for the same cost.

Had a great day boating from Bugbrooke to Braunston except it was a bit hot

[Guest]

I hate f****** toast. Bread and butter much better; less crumbs no diesel/electric.

 

p.s. turn the inverter off if not using it.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Guest

[peterboat]

Using electricity to heat anything, especially electricity generated on a boat = the most expensive form of power, is highly inefficient compared to burning gas or other fossil fuel or (I know deep down in the swamp they use wood but lets get our toast before 9 huh?)

 

To make toast you need to burn diesel (or even petrol) to make 12v electric to store it in a chemical form to make 12V electricity to convert that to 230V to run your toaster/ kettle to make heat. Each time you lose horrendous percentages of that power. If you simply heat water or toast by burning gas.

 

There is a slight argument that whilst running the engine you may have a surplus if a leisure boat but it's pretty unlikely in any liveaboard regime. Solar just isn't in the running, even the "I've got more than you" boys only have a kilowatt, that will take an 3 hour to boil a kettle of water on a good day.

 

There are a few forum members with all electric boats but they have multi-kilowatt generators to do it with and if you say nothing else about it, it's not efficient.

 

And that's only argument one.

 

A toaster or a kettle is around 3,000W - that's around 300A at 12V, even 150A at 24V to run an inverter. To move that around takes some serious copper and expensive bits of equipment. The cost of a Victron alone to run that lot would probably pay for a cafe breakfast for the next 5 years.

 

 

Yes. Nuts.

 

 

1.6Ah to make 2 slices of toast?

 

That's around 5% of my daily usage.

 

and you have a large solar array so you are costing less. What's the typical cost of a boat Ah?

 

compared to the almost nothing it costs with gas?

 

You notice I didn't say anything about the hair dryer or the dyson.

 

You don't have to be a troglodyte to live off grid but you do have to be conscious of what you do use and choose where you spend your power pound (I just made that up, neat huh?)

Over 1 kilowatt of solar 1500 amp hours of full traction batteries who cares. I have a dishwasher autowasher anything and everthing that consumes electric and nearly every day by 11 ish batteries fully charged. I know not everybody has the room are money for it but solar and large battery banks work and work well I have been doing it for 9 years and would not go back to shore power or a no home comforts life. Shoot me down if you wish but I love my comfy boat and so does my partner or any of my boating friends who go out with us

 

Peter

[Top cat]

To go back to the original topic

 

Our inverter gets switched on only when required and goes off again pronto as it uses 1.1 amps on no load

We have travel power when the engine is running and use the inverter sparingly when stopped mainly for the TV and on occasionally to do toast but only immediately before setting off.

When stationary we use the gas to boil the kettle and a 2800W electric kettle on travel power while we are underway.

 

My Thanks to those who have done the cost calculations it seems that peering through all the insults that the cost of boiling water is much the same whether by gas or electric. We use the electric kettle under way because it's quicker and in the summer heats the cabin less.

 

TC

[nicknorman]

Over 1 kilowatt of solar 1500 amp hours of full traction batteries who cares. I have a dishwasher autowasher anything and everthing that consumes electric and nearly every day by 11 ish batteries fully charged. I know not everybody has the room are money for it but solar and large battery banks work and work well I have been doing it for 9 years and would not go back to shore power or a no home comforts life. Shoot me down if you wish but I love my comfy boat and so does my partner or any of my boating friends who go out with usPeter

Well said! The self righteous mob who proclaim a virtue out of sitting all night with one candle and a warm teabag to suck are welcome to their lifestyle, but shouldn't try to impose it on the rest of us!

[smileypete]

One thing with gas I suspect efficiency is lowest when the burner output is highest, so bringing things to the boil a bit less quickly will boost efficiency overall.

 

For solar via well looked after proper semi traction batts, the batt cost may well end up about 15p/kWh. So completely discounting the entire cost of the solar install, the elec cost is about the same as grid, availability permitting of course.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[Chris Pink]

Well said! The self righteous mob who proclaim a virtue out of sitting all night with one candle and a warm teabag to suck are welcome to their lifestyle, but shouldn't try to impose it on the rest of us!

 

...got a big boy to hide behind now Nicky? good-oh.

completely discounting the entire cost of the solar install

 

Indeed, and inverter and copper.

 

If you throw £5,000 at a piece of bread you'd expect it to just roll over and die, sod the toaster.

[nicknorman]

...got a big boy to hide behind now Nicky? good-oh.

 

.

Naughty Pinkie! If you keep pursuing me around the forum trying to engage with me, people are going to start talking! Edited July 7, 2013 by nicknorman

[Phil Ambrose]

Well said! The self righteous mob who proclaim a virtue out of sitting all night with one candle and a warm teabag to suck are welcome to their lifestyle, but shouldn't try to impose it on the rest of us!

Seconded, as I've said before, "we may live on a boat but we aint camping"

 

Phil

[Justme]

 

 

 

If I didn't use gas I am waiting, patiently, for you electrical evangelists to tell me how much it would cost me to do all this. I've even done some of the work for you in telling you it's 250Ah at 12V.

And if some smart arse comes along with "its solar, its free" I would ask for you not to be so disingenuous and include your payback calculations.

 

 

 

 

Boy are you going to hate me.

 

It cost us nothing for our electricity all year. We get paid for the energy made by the solar in summer & that buys us enough red to run the genny when needed in winter. We also have enough red left over to run the digger or tractor quite a bit too.

 

Our pay back for the install costs was due to be 5 years & this was when prices were still over £3k for 1kWp (much shorter than most due to our base electricity unit cost being much high due to being off grid & that we did the install ourselves) but with the FIT's payments that was reduced to sub 3 years so is now fully paid back.

 

 

 

Lets take today as an example.

 

The solar made 6.6kWh & our consumption was 3kWh (battery was low at start of the day). We would get paid £2.83 for the energy made. Had we used more then the system would have made more & hence we would get paid more. On a day like today we could make a tad under 8kWh if either the battery bank was emptier or we used more. We dont try to use more just to get the extra payments as some do as we feel that is not playing fair with the system.

 

If the weather is the same again tomorrow then we will prob make 4kWh ish or more if the system does an EQ charge if one is due.

 

Edit to add.

 

PS we dont use an electrical kettle. Its either the wood fired stove, wood fired range or the lpg cooker. As you can see above using elec in summer would make us more money yet we dont do that.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Justme

[Chris Pink]

I do think the pay-in tariff has some ethical issues but wouldn't blame anyone for taking up the offer.

 

But I see that even with this level of generation you still use gas for boiling water. Camping over a damp tea bag are you?

 

Maybe the boaters can moor alongside an electricity bollard and sell surplus at FIT to pay for their installs?

[Justme]

I do think the pay-in tariff has some ethical issues but wouldn't blame anyone for taking up the offer.

 

But I see that even with this level of generation you still use gas for boiling water. Camping over a damp tea bag are you?

 

Maybe the boaters can moor alongside an electricity bollard and sell surplus at FIT to pay for their installs?

 

 

I agree the FIT's has made a negative impact on greenness issues.

 

One of the reasons we still use gas is that the inverter can then be sized more efficently. As it is we have a Victron 3000va jobby. Yes that will do a kettle but its then sailing very close to the wind if some other items kick in (fridge, freezer or water booster pump) when its on or if we want to have a cuppa whilst doing the washing or dishwashing.

 

You do not have to be grid connected to be part of the FIT's scheme. We are off grid but still get the production payment we just dont get the export rate.

 

Personally I think the FIT payment should have just been for exported power & you still get the savings on your import for using some of your own production. As it is now you gain most by using all the power on site. So people use the elec for stuff that should really be done via other power sources.

[matty40s]

........

 

What happens when the oil/gas runs out? We will have to rub 2 boy scouts together to make a fire.

oh no, don't bring dave mayall into this one as well...

[Capt.Golightly]

The only thing I use a fridge for is dairy and meat so when I buy my live aboard I'll shall remove it and buy longlife milk lifting a deck plate to stash my cheese meat and other stuff under using the water temp to keep it chilled.... and tasting of diesel mmmm...

Edited July 17, 2013 by Capt.Golightly

[system 4-50]

The only thing I use a fridge for is dairy and meat so when I buy my live aboard I'll shall remove it and buy longlife milk lifting a deck plate to stash my cheese meat and other stuff under using the water temp to keep it chilled.... and tasting of diesel mmmm...

You can't keep both the cheese and the meat on the base plate. In my book on hygiene and cooking it says quite clearly that fresh meat must be on a different plate to other foods.