New court ruling on council tax for liveaboards.

[carlt]

The poll tax was an attempt to spread the cost based on the people that were making use of the services rather than the value of the property which on the face of it made a lot of sense .if it was just about the services used but.........

If it had been introduced as a proportionate local income tax then it would have been fair.

 

The problem with the Poll Tax is that a multi-millionaire paid the same as a penniless pensioner.

[Boat&Bikes]

If it had been introduced as a proportionate local income tax then it would have been fair.

 

The problem with the Poll Tax is that a multi-millionaire paid the same as a penniless pensioner.

But the millionaire would be paying hundreds of thousands in tax in general wouldnt he?

[Domino_2]

Also is it fair to pay both council tax AND a C&RT licence fee when the licence fee covers some of the same services the council tax does?

[Higgs]

What's immutable is - they never have enough tax, are never satisfied, are never wrong, and are very useless - with money and people. And, if the present situation doesn't prove that, I don't know what else would.

[carlt]

But the millionaire would be paying hundreds of thousands in tax in general wouldnt he?

A couple of them believe they should pay a fair proportion of tax (Dyson and Rowlings spring to mind) but the rest have excellent accountants.

[George94]

no it's not. In our marina, someone with a boat worth £10 000 is paying the same council tax as someone on land who has a home worth £80 000 +

 

Don't forget that the mooring has a value too. If it didn't, a person in a rented flat could claim that his property had no value at all, as he didn't own it.

 

If you are paying £3,000 per annum for your mooring, that equates to an additional value of around £40,000, to be added to the £10k for your boat.

 

People who owned or were buying property paid rates. The Council Tax was first a Community ( I may be assuming wrongly that it was linked to the Common Market) tax and morphed into council tax.

 

People who paid rent or lived in social housing didn't pay rates, as such. That's what I recall, anyway.

 

 

They did, but it was included with the rent.

 

But the millionaire would be paying hundreds of thousands in tax in general wouldnt he?

 

Yes, and so he should be.

[Boat&Bikes]

A couple of them believe they should pay a fair proportion of tax (Dyson and Rowlings spring to mind) but the rest have excellent accountants.

I think more than a couple...As for Dyson,assuming your talking vacuums then i lost respect for him years ago when he moved his main production overseas.Not all of business owners are out to screw the system Carl!

 

Don't forget that the mooring has a value too. If it didn't, a person in a rented flat could claim that his property had no value at all, as he didn't own it.

 

If you are paying £3,000 per annum for your mooring, that equates to an additional value of around £40,000, to be added to the £10k for your boat.

 

 

 

They did, but it was included with the rent.

 

 

Yes, and so he should be.

Yes so he should.

[Ex- Member]

People who owned or were buying property paid rates. The Council Tax was first a Community ( I may be assuming wrongly that it was linked to the Common Market) tax and morphed into council tax.

 

People who paid rent or lived in social housing didn't pay rates, as such. That's what I recall, anyway.

 

Rates were payable by all properties including council housing, the ratable value of a property back then was based on it's rentable value. I remember well my dad moaning about how much rates we had to pay. At least back then it included water & sewage, which today is now an additional bill we've all been conned into paying.

 

Rates were replaced by Community Charge (popularly known as the poll tax) in 1990 a couple of years later the poll tax was abolished and has been replaced by the council tax.

 

Council tax is much the same as rates and using a banding system it's levied on capital value rather than notional rental value of a property.

[Higgs]

They did, but it was included with the rent.

 

My suspicion is, the rents didn't suddenly decrease as council tax became the norm.

[carlt]

Not all of business owners are out to screw the system Carl!

I agree and those who pay their tax bill should be applauded (I recall an Independent article doing just that sometime last year).

 

Other than a proportionate local income tax I don't believe the rich should be taxed more but I do believe those who avoid paying should be pursued with exactly the same enthusiasm that is accorded to benefit fraudsters.

[Boat&Bikes]

I agree and those who pay their tax bill should be applauded (I recall an Independent article doing just that sometime last year).

 

Other than a proportionate local income tax I don't believe the rich should be taxed more but I do believe those who avoid paying should be pursued with exactly the same enthusiasm that is accorded to benefit fraudsters.

S... i agree

[Tuscan]

If it had been introduced as a proportionate local income tax then it would have been fair.

 

The problem with the Poll Tax is that a multi-millionaire paid the same as a penniless pensioner.

And you prefer the current method where the penniless pensioner in a large house pays more than a high earning couple in a smaller house.

 

Neither seems fair

[nicknorman]

If it had been introduced as a proportionate local income tax then it would have been fair.

 

Logic would suggest that you therefore think that service costs and purchase costs should be proportionate to income of the recipient. You should be able to go into a shop to buy a new 50" tv, iPad etc and say "I only earn the minimum wage, therefore I'm only going to give you £10 for it". And when your services as a carpenter were required, you would charge in proportion to income, presumably supplying your professional services for free for the unemployed?

 

No that logic doesn't really work does it, so why apply it to services such as schooling, street lighting, local road maintenance, social services funding etc?

[carlt]

And you prefer the current method where the penniless pensioner in a large house pays more than a high earning couple in a smaller house.

 

Neither seems fair

I don't recall saying that.

 

Why would I suggest an alternative if I thought the existing system was fair?

[Smelly]

I do love a nice narrative decision. I doubt he'll see it but I wish Patten LJ the best in his sailings..

[carlt]

Logic would suggest....

Your logic perhaps...and you're right, it wouldn't work but remove all the indirect taxation that successive Thatcherite administrations have introduced to hide their tax increases and put them back on proportionate taxation and it would go some way to redress the imbalance.

[Higgs]

And you prefer the current method where the penniless pensioner in a large house pays more than a high earning couple in a smaller house.

 

Neither seems fair

 

Your penniless pensioner, I think, will be loosing most of their single occupancy discount, with all of those rooms.

[Smelly]

And you prefer the current method where the penniless pensioner in a large house pays more than a high earning couple in a smaller house.Neither seems fair

Your penniless pensioner will be entitled to Council Tax Relief from the Local Authority under the same criteria as the old Council Tax Benefit.

[ditchcrawler]

Your penniless pensioner will be entitled to Council Tax Relief from the Local Authority under the same criteria as the old Council Tax Benefit.

My mum didn't pay any council tax as she was on benefit. However I understand it is now up to local councils what sort of discount they give. Mum is dead so it does not personally effect me and at the moment I am able and happy to pay mine.

[Higgs]

Council tax, as Smelly says.

[DaveC]

With regard to rates and social housing - many years ago I was a council house tenent and I know that the rates were shown on my rent card as a separate charge. The only difference was that mine was paid in weekly (or fortnightly) installments whereas a house owner would pay annually or quarterly. The point being is that rates WERE paid by council tennents.

 

 

 

 

Dave

[cotswoldsman]

Not sure how many times this Council Tax thing has been debated on here and the fact that us Freeloading Continuous Cruisers who liveaboard do not pay any!!! What most people seem to forget is that most Council funding comes from Central Government and is therefor paid out of our taxes. I pay a licence for my rubbish disposal. When I am in an area I use very few of the local facilities and the ones I do use will be covered by the tax I pay and the contributions I make to local business's who are paying Business Rates.

[Tuscan]

Not sure how many times this Council Tax thing has been debated on here and the fact that us Freeloading Continuous Cruisers who liveaboard do not pay any!!! What most people seem to forget is that most Council funding comes from Central Government and is therefor paid out of our taxes. I pay a licence for my rubbish disposal. When I am in an area I use very few of the local facilities and the ones I do use will be covered by the tax I pay and the contributions I make to local business's who are paying Business Rates.

I am sure the reason that no council tax is paid is not your personal lack of use of the facilities but the difficulty of devising a scheme of collection. Using your logic why is council tax payable on a holiday cottage which the owner only uses one weekend a month, taking his rubbish home with him. Not using the facilities is not normally an excuse for non payment of any tax.

 

There is no logic in trying to charge council tax on boats or caravans that move around the system , static caravans or boats which are occupied and remain in one place are harder to defend as is the case here.

[sueb]

I was told BW paid business rates which covered our Council tax as we paid this as part of our licence fee. I assume the same still applies.

[carlt]

I was told BW paid business rates which covered our Council tax as we paid this as part of our licence fee. I assume the same still applies.

I shop in Waitrose, who also pay business rates, can I be excused too?

 

Whilst I agree that ccers should not have to pay council tax there is no reason to introduce silly myths to strengthen the argument.