New court ruling on council tax for liveaboards.

[Dave_P]

It's a longish read, but interesting.

 

What do you all think?

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2013/362.html

[Chris Pink]

1. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

2. Chivenor is lovely and on my list of places to visit and moor for a while.

3. Like every other liveaboard spot I know it's much much more busy than it was when I first discovered it

4. Part of Thatcher's legacy.

5. Why do liveaboard boats all cluster together.

6. I don't really know what 'hereditament' means, though I thought I did.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Chris Pink

[Bod]

Does it mean that if you liveaboard for less than 12 months on a single mooring you don't pay council tax?

 

Bod

[Dave_P]

Does it mean that if you liveaboard for less than 12 months on a single mooring you don't pay council tax?

 

Bod

Possibly...

[ditchcrawler]

So does this mean that any live aboard who does not have a home anywhere else and stays in the same spot for 12 moths is libel for council tax?

[Grace and Favour]

So does this mean that any live aboard who does not have a home anywhere else and stays in the same spot for 12 moths is libel for council tax?

If the local council so decide.

 

Which is why people in that position may be advised to 'keep their head down'

 

 

 

 

(Though I suspect you mean '12 months is liable', not '12 moths is libel', which is a much more difficult to prove in court!!! ( )

Edited April 17, 2013 by Grace & Favour

[GoodGurl]

1. north devon is lovely.
2. Donations are good.
3. "Cannis" is a nice name for a boat
4. Well done to Randy for representing himself.
5. What he said.
6. A mooring without a boat is good.

[ditchcrawler]

If the local council so decide.

 

Which is why people in that position may be advised to 'keep their head down'

 

 

 

 

(Though I suspect you mean '12 months is liable', not '12 moths is libel', which is a much more difficult to prove in court!!! ( )

Yes, I am still looking for a spell checker that knows what word I want to use, also the wine isn't helping much.

[Higgs]

I think one of the tests should be - can a postman deliver a letter to a recognised address. ??

 

Don't imagine that part of the 'system' is a benefit that happens too often for liveaboards.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Higgs

[Paul C]

It's a longish read, but interesting.

 

What do you all think?

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2013/362.html

 

Its interesting (in itself) but ultimately makes a poor precident because it doesn't actually say "the time you're there is critical, and if its 12 months or more then council tax is payable". It says that time there (permanence) is a factor, but says that although its not the only factor it could be an overriding one.

 

Basically it says each case must be interpreted on its own merits and that you can't draw up simple guidelines!

[NB Lola]

I live in a house. I consider it to be my permanent abode.

 

I use council services such as library, rubbish disposal, recyclable and garden waste disposal and i have an allotment. They cut communal areas of grass. My children go to school.

 

If I was in need, I could utilise many other services. I pay for those services.

 

Given this I accept there is a cost to these services and pay my way.

 

We pay whether we use the services or not and understand why. I hope to get a bus pass one day or sit in the library using the Internet and keep warm.

 

In the generality, what makes a liveaboard different if they live in a single location?

 

Even if they did not, is it fair that a Ccer has access to these services ( whether using them or not) but has no liability unlike those who live in rateable properties?

 

No tin hat needed but reasoned counter argument would be welcome (truly) because if I am convinced to the contrary I will feel much better if I CC and don't pay local taxes.

[ditchcrawler]

I live in a house. I consider it to be my permanent abode.

 

I use council services such as library, rubbish disposal, recyclable and garden waste disposal and i have an allotment. They cut communal areas of grass. My children go to school.

 

If I was in need, I could utilise many other services. I pay for those services.

 

Given this I accept there is a cost to these services and pay my way.

 

We pay whether we use the services or not and understand why. I hope to get a bus pass one day or sit in the library using the Internet and keep warm.

 

In the generality, what makes a liveaboard different if they live in a single location?

 

Even if they did not, is it fair that a Ccer has access to these services ( whether using them or not) but has no liability unlike those who live in rateable properties?

 

No tin hat needed but reasoned counter argument would be welcome (truly) because if I am convinced to the contrary I will feel much better if I CC and don't pay local taxes.

I cant argue with your sentiments but I find it a bit like how far you need to move for CCing. The "system" is not fit for purpose. A chap in a big house uses no more amenities than a chap in a little one but pays more towards them. He may or may not be able to afford them any more than the chap in the little house but its the system

[Higgs]

May be we should have the system we had - one tax. The 33% tax on wages seemed quite good, compared to what we have now; roughly 25% of your wage plus 20% on nearly everything you buy.

 

 

Plus - Council Tax

Edited April 17, 2013 by Higgs

[dmr]

This forum keeps going round in the same circles about council tax and a few liveaboard boaters getting something we free.

We do not do "pay as you go" for police, health and education etc, and this is because we are an advanced and civilised society.

In general we pay according to our means via income tax, and if we have no income then the state gives us a small handout (a system that is occasionally abused to the delight of the tabloids).

The concept of paying for local services via a council tax (a renamed Poll Tax) is a very silly way to raise revenue and is a scheme invented by a certain Mrs Thatcher in her mission to "make everyone a capitalist. Much of the funding for local services is actually a grant from central government (income Tax) and the level of poll tax is mostly controlled by central government in a way to cause maximum pain for councils of the opposite political persuasion.

 

I have paid income tax all my life, and now I have a tiny pension I pay income tax on that. I pay more income tax on my self employed earnings, and yet more tax on any interest from any money I might have in the bank. I can't pay council tax because I live on a boat and keep moving and its a tax on static property.

The Poll tax was intended to be a divisive tax, it appears to be working as intended...so rise above it!!!!!

 

..................Dave

[DeanS]

What is council tax for? Can someone list it in specific points, so I can cross check what I make use of and what I dont. At the moment I do pay council tax, but I feel that living in a boat the size of 10ft x 57ft, you should not pay the same as someone living in a brick and mortar house...for many reasons....for example...the local kids can stand on boats and rock them , causing internal damage...the police could do nothing but watch....however if kids were trashing someones house, I think they would act differently. In short...I dont think boaters have the same level of council services as land based humans.

[NB Lola]

Council tax is banded according to property value

[Grace and Favour]

This forum keeps going round in the same circles about council tax and a few liveaboard boaters getting something we free.

We do not do "pay as you go" for police, health and education etc, and this is because we are an advanced and civilised society.

In general we pay according to our means via income tax, and if we have no income then the state gives us a small handout (a system that is occasionally abused to the delight of the tabloids).

The concept of paying for local services via a council tax (a renamed Poll Tax) is a very silly way to raise revenue and is a scheme invented by a certain Mrs Thatcher in her mission to "make everyone a capitalist. Much of the funding for local services is actually a grant from central government (income Tax) and the level of poll tax is mostly controlled by central government in a way to cause maximum pain for councils of the opposite political persuasion.

 

I have paid income tax all my life, and now I have a tiny pension I pay income tax on that. I pay more income tax on my self employed earnings, and yet more tax on any interest from any money I might have in the bank. I can't pay council tax because I live on a boat and keep moving and its a tax on static property.

The Poll tax was intended to be a divisive tax, it appears to be working as intended...so rise above it!!!!!

 

..................Dave

Do I not recall that before Council 'Tax' - we all paid 'Rates' on our properties?

[DeanS]

no it's not. In our marina, someone with a boat worth £10 000 is paying the same council tax as someone on land who has a home worth £80 000 +

Council tax is banded according to property value

[Higgs]

Do I not recall that before Council 'Tax' - we all paid 'Rates' on our properties?

 

People who owned or were buying property paid rates. The Council Tax was first a Community ( I may be assuming wrongly that it was linked to the Common Market) tax and morphed into council tax.

 

People who paid rent or lived in social housing didn't pay rates, as such. That's what I recall, anyway.

[NB Lola]

 

no it's not. In our marina, someone with a boat worth £10 000 is paying the same council tax as someone on land who has a home worth £80 000 +

[Grace and Favour]

People who owned or were buying property paid rates. The Council Tax was first a Community ( I may be assuming wrongly that it was linked to the Common Market) tax and morphed into council tax.

 

People who paid rent or lived in social housing didn't pay rates, as such. That's what I recall, anyway.

I believed (rightly or wrongly) that the property owner/lessor paid rates, (and that therefore the folks renting would have it included in the rents they paid (even though it may not have appeared as a separate item)

 

no it's not. In our marina, someone with a boat worth £10 000 is paying the same council tax as someone on land who has a home worth £80 000 +

Band A

[NB Lola]

Council tax is banded that means band A, for example is 80k and less, band b 81k to 125k, band c 125k to 225k.

 

That is banding.

[Boat&Bikes]

We live in a relatively large house and pay a high council tax because of that.Its not fair in my opinion as we use less council facilities than many who live in smaller houses.Why should people who live on boats be able to avoid paying there way? Maybe Maggies poll tax was a good idea?

 

Ian.

[Tuscan]

Rates ,,community charge, council tax has always been with us and it's been levied on the building some landlords included it in the rent where there was multi occupancy others pass it onto he tenant when there's a longer term lease. The poll tax was an attempt to spread the cost based on the people that were making use of the services rather than the value of the property which on the face of it made a lot of sense .if it was just about the services used but.........

[Domino_2]

The judgement seems to be saying that in deciding whether Council tax should be paid a number of factors have to be considered, ONE of which is the length of time the boat has stayed in one place. There is no definative answer as to what is and what isn't to be considered a taxable property. Each case falls on its own facts.