New court ruling on council tax for liveaboards.

[DeanS]

what does council tax pay for?

[Alan de Enfield]

I was told BW paid business rates which covered our Council tax as we paid this as part of our licence fee. I assume the same still applies.

 

Whoever told you was wrong !!

 

Business Rates cover any part of the business - buildings, sheds,workshops, wharfs etc etc - but specifically excludes any part that is residential.

 

That residential dwelling must be assesed and pay council tax.

 

An analogy would be - I own a shop, part of upstairs is used for storage and part as a 'flat'. It is all owned by the 'business' and I 'run' the shop as well as own it.

 

I have to pay business rates on the shop and storage area, & I have to pay council tax on the 'flat'

[carlt]

what does council tax pay for?

Let Me Google That For You

Edited April 18, 2013 by carlt

[Higgs]

I'm a longstay visitor, the mooring is non-residential, I can't receive post. If I gave you my details, you couldn't post me a letter, or at least, I wouldn't get it. Why do I feel I'm not completely a part of the mainstream, which incidentally suits me, but what would I be paying for.

 

Don't tell me roads. I cycle, they're crap.

 

 

My address for everything is a friend's address and they pay council tax and I pay them - in kind.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Higgs

[Grace and Favour]

I'm a longstay visitor, the mooring is non-residential, I can't receive post. If I gave you my details, you couldn't post me a letter, or at least, I wouldn't get it. Why do I not feel I'm not completely a part of the mainstream, which incidentally suits me, but what would I be paying for.

 

Don't tell me roads. I cycle, they're crap.

But if your were injured on the road, you would be attended to by the Police

If you had an accident with your boat (or fire - perish the thought) - you would be serviced by the Fire Brigade

 

Both substantially paid for Council Tax

[NB Alnwick]

Just a theoretical argument but I could never quite get my mind round why people felt that the Community Charge (Poll Tax) was so divisive. In theory it seemed as if it was a scheme where every adult paid an equal amount toward 'community services' like the Police, refuse collection and disposal, local social services etc. To me that seemed to be quite fair - after all we all pay an equal amount for the bread and milk that we buy in the shops . . .

 

In its place we have Council Tax that is only paid by those who enjoy property - either owned or rented and, in practice, there are discounts for single occupancy (I don't yet know how this will be affected by the so called 'Bedroom Tax'), rebates and allowances for those claiming benefits etc. So, it seems to me, that the present system is not really a lot different to the Community Charge - except that the Community Charge that I paid worked out at a bit less that the Council Tax that replaced it. Surely, if everyone paid, the cost burden would be fairly distributed and would work out at less per person than a scheme based solely on property. What is it that I am not seeing?

[DeanS]

Local services such as planning, transport, highways, police, fire, libraries, leisure and recreation, rubbish collection and disposal, environmental health and trading standards.

 

Planning - As a boater, I pay CRT for planning. The licence fee covers anything that happens on the water bit, right? The council dont clean up the canals, because the canals dont seem to be "part of their world".

 

Transport &Highways - As a boater, I have to make my own transport plans...on the water. I moor outside pubs, never use a car, walk to the shops. I don't use the highways.

 

Police. - When kids were trashing a fellow boaters boat, the police did nothing..(I was there). When on a towpath, a boater knows that there is no easy way to call the police and expect them to respond in the same way a person with a property address would have. A policeman would have no idea where to quickly respond to a boat on a towpath. A towpath has no cctv. It has no community officers walking along it. It is outside of the police's routine areas.

 

Fire - If a boat on a towpath catches fire, it is extremely difficult to expect a fire engine to arrive in minutes, compared to someone living in a brick and mortar dwelling.

 

Libraries - You cant get a library card without an address. A CC-er would have to lie about their address to borrow some books.

 

Leisure and Recreation - The fees we pay to CRT cover our leisure and recreation...our boating.

 

Rubbish collection - A boater cant expect the council to send a bin man to the towpath to collect his rubbish on a daily basis as do land dwellers. A boater has to dispose of his own rubbish...often into the fire it goes.

 

Environmental Health and Trading - The main culprits causing environmental issues are motorists. A boaters carbon footprint is probably very small. We pay CRT for maintaining the towpaths etc, not the council.

 

Trading - Boaters arent able to easily trade from their boats, and when they do, they cant do it within the local council area...they have to be on a journey...as recently highlighted by the bicycle boat who couldnt service his local area any longer.

 

 

?

[NB Alnwick]

I shop in Waitrose, who also pay business rates, can I be excused too?

I didn't think there was a local Waitrose or do you shop online and have it delivered from Daventry?

[NB Lola]

Do services get delivered on roads we pay council tax?

 

Such as gas bottles, coal, fire lighters, diesel

 

You get my drift, pardon the pun

Edited April 18, 2013 by NB Lola

[Higgs]

But if your were injured on the road, you would be attended to by the Police

If you had an accident with your boat (or fire - perish the thought) - you would be serviced by the Fire Brigade

 

Both substantially paid for Council Tax

 

I'm very nearly in a position to be paying tax again. Is that just going to get trapped in London.

[NB Alnwick]

Local services such as planning, transport, highways, police, fire, libraries, leisure and recreation, rubbish collection and disposal, environmental health and trading standards.

 

Planning - As a boater, I pay CRT for planning. The licence fee covers anything that happens on the water bit, right? The council dont clean up the canals, because the canals dont seem to be "part of their world".

 

Transport &Highways - As a boater, I have to make my own transport plans...on the water. I moor outside pubs, never use a car, walk to the shops. I don't use the highways.

 

Police. - When kids were trashing a fellow boaters boat, the police did nothing..(I was there). When on a towpath, a boater knows that there is no easy way to call the police and expect them to respond in the same way a person with a property address would have. A policeman would have no idea where to quickly respond to a boat on a towpath. A towpath has no cctv. It has no community officers walking along it. It is outside of the police's routine areas.

 

Fire - If a boat on a towpath catches fire, it is extremely difficult to expect a fire engine to arrive in minutes, compared to someone living in a brick and mortar dwelling.

 

Libraries - You cant get a library card without an address. A CC-er would have to lie about their address to borrow some books.

 

Leisure and Recreation - The fees we pay to CRT cover our leisure and recreation...our boating.

 

Rubbish collection - A boater cant expect the council to send a bin man to the towpath to collect his rubbish on a daily basis as do land dwellers. A boater has to dispose of his own rubbish...often into the fire it goes.

 

Environmental Health and Trading - The main culprits causing environmental issues are motorists. A boaters carbon footprint is probably very small. We pay CRT for maintaining the towpaths etc, not the council.

 

Trading - Boaters arent able to easily trade from their boats, and when they do, they cant do it within the local council area...they have to be on a journey...as recently highlighted by the bicycle boat who couldnt service his local area any longer.

 

 

?

Many house dwellers could put forward many of the same arguments but whereas some undoubtedly use local services more than others, they are provided for all of us.

 

And with regard to the Police, Fire and Ambulance Services, it could be argued that accessing boats is, generally, far more expensive than accessing a roadside property. I have seen police patrols (on foot and on bicycles) patrolling the towpath, I have seen the air ambulance landing in a remote spot to rescue an injured boater and I have seen all three services attending a serious incident at a remote lock.

[DeanS]

Many house dwellers could put forward many of the same arguments but whereas some undoubtedly use local services more than others, they are provided for all of us.

 

And with regard to the Police, Fire and Ambulance Services, it could be argued that accessing boats is, generally, far more expensive than accessing a roadside property. I have seen police patrols (on foot and on bicycles) patrolling the towpath, I have seen the air ambulance landing in a remote spot to rescue an injured boater and I have seen all three services attending a serious incident at a remote lock.

 

fair enough. I have no problem paying council tax, and I do. You make good points. (however....aren't police services part of our income tax we all pay for anyway? In other countries, the police, fire etc are provided to all..through normal taxation means....not via an extra local taxation )

 

 

and since I am learning about this subject....if someone doesnt have a job and lives in a council house etc...are they waived council tax? Does a boater who lives in a residential mooring, who has no job perhaps....are they also waived paying, or do they have to pay? Basically I'm asking if boaters are treated differently to land dwellers when it comes to their council tax being subsidised or waived.

Edited April 18, 2013 by DeanS

[Higgs]

. What is it that I am not seeing?

 

You're reducing everything to money and while services are failing. Government are reducing their part, to main contractor of business. Another level of taxation, another level of waste in the administration. Simplification is what I would vote for.

[Hastings]

fair enough. I have no problem paying council tax, and I do. You make good points. (however....aren't police services part of our income tax we all pay for anyway? In other countries, the police, fire etc are provided to all..through normal taxation means....not via an extra local taxation )

 

 

and since I am learning about this subject....if someone doesnt have a job and lives in a council house etc...are they waived council tax? Does a boater who lives in a residential mooring, who has no job perhaps....are they also waived paying, or do they have to pay? Basically I'm asking if boaters are treated differently to land dwellers when it comes to their council tax being subsidised or waived.

Police services are paid for in the main in Britain from Council Tax, not normal national taxation (by that, I assume that you mean income tax, corporation tax, VAT, customs duties etc.)

 

If you live in a council house, or housing association house, you are liable to pay Council Tax. In practice, you may not, if you have a low income and if certain State benefits kick in. But this applies also to people who lived in property they own, or rent from a private landlord. In other words, Council Tax is levied on all "bricks and mortar" housing, but some people may not pay due to low income.

 

Councils are entitled to levy Council Tax on any residential boat that stays in their area, but many do not, presumably because finding them and administering the charge can be rather difficult.

 

Council Tax pays for a very wide range of services, many of which all boaters (CCers and others) will use either themselves, or indirectly (e.g. roads for delivery of goods to shops, and pavements to get to the shops and pubs). Opting out of income tax and VAT isn't an option, so why should this more local tax be any different? Taxes, wherever they come from, are used to pay for the infrastructure within Britain, so if you chose to live here, surely you should contribute.

[George94]

I do love a nice narrative decision. I doubt he'll see it but I wish Patten LJ the best in his sailings..

 

I agree. I thought Alan Ward's contribution was excellent. Clear, witty, humane. Renewed my faith in our judiciary.

[matty40s]

Do services get delivered on roads we pay council tax?

Such as gas bottles, coal, fire lighters, diesel

You get my drift, pardon the pun

 

No, mine comes by coal boat, who pays a traders licence.

I also pay car tax, which quite obviously goes towards the upkeep, maintenance and planning of our road system. Ho ho!!!!

[pearley]

May be we should have the system we had - one tax. The 33% tax on wages seemed quite good, compared to what we have now; roughly 25% of your wage plus 20% on nearly everything you buy.

 

 

Plus - Council Tax

When did we have one tax? Before VAT we had purchase tax which was 25% on 'luxury' goods. So most of your electrical goods including your laptop, iPod, etc would cost more than today.

 

And then there is National Insurance which is really just another tax.

 

However, I do agree that our tax system needs much simplification. Why do you pay NI on a lower wage than PAYE. If your wages are deemed too low for one why are they high enough for the other. If the minimum wage is deemed to be lower than a living wage why should you be paying both NI and PAYE.

 

Regards

Pete

[carlt]

I didn't think there was a local Waitrose or do you shop online and have it delivered from Daventry?

Lutterworth is 7 miles away, nearer than Daventry.

[cotswoldsman]

Police services are paid for in the main in Britain from Council Tax, not normal national taxation (by that, I assume that you mean income tax, corporation tax, VAT, customs duties etc.)

 

If you live in a council house, or housing association house, you are liable to pay Council Tax. In practice, you may not, if you have a low income and if certain State benefits kick in. But this applies also to people who lived in property they own, or rent from a private landlord. In other words, Council Tax is levied on all "bricks and mortar" housing, but some people may not pay due to low income.

 

Councils are entitled to levy Council Tax on any residential boat that stays in their area, but many do not, presumably because finding them and administering the charge can be rather difficult.

 

Council Tax pays for a very wide range of services, many of which all boaters (CCers and others) will use either themselves, or indirectly (e.g. roads for delivery of goods to shops, and pavements to get to the shops and pubs). Opting out of income tax and VAT isn't an option, so why should this more local tax be any different? Taxes, wherever they come from, are used to pay for the infrastructure within Britain, so if you chose to live here, surely you should contribute.

As the majority of Council Income comes from central Government you are wrong. Council tax accounts for between 20 and 25% of the total income a council receives.

[pearley]

Just a theoretical argument but I could never quite get my mind round why people felt that the Community Charge (Poll Tax) was so divisive. In theory it seemed as if it was a scheme where every adult paid an equal amount toward 'community services' like the Police, refuse collection and disposal, local social services etc. To me that seemed to be quite fair - after all we all pay an equal amount for the bread and milk that we buy in the shops . . .

 

In its place we have Council Tax that is only paid by those who enjoy property - either owned or rented and, in practice, there are discounts for single occupancy (I don't yet know how this will be affected by the so called 'Bedroom Tax'), rebates and allowances for those claiming benefits etc. So, it seems to me, that the present system is not really a lot different to the Community Charge - except that the Community Charge that I paid worked out at a bit less that the Council Tax that replaced it. Surely, if everyone paid, the cost burden would be fairly distributed and would work out at less per person than a scheme based solely on property. What is it that I am not seeing?

And I thought that it was only Jeannette and I that thought that.

 

Regards

Pete

[Leni]

I pay my taxes so that anyone can enjoy the services for which they pay, regardless of whether I ever have need of them myself. I do this willingly because I believe their is such a thing as 'Society', whatever a certain 'lady' is frequently (mis)quoted as having said!

[Ex- Member]

As the majority of Council Income comes from central Government you are wrong. Council tax accounts for between 20 and 25% of the total income a council receives.

 

I thought so too so checked, central government funds the cops to the tune of 9 billion a year ish which is around 70 to 80% of the budget, some areas are slightly different than others I believe. Council tax fills the gap though. It is very complicated though as 4 different sources of funding come from central government, making the 9 billion.

[NB Alnwick]

I pay my taxes so that anyone can enjoy the services for which they pay, regardless of whether I ever have need of them myself. I do this willingly because I believe their is such a thing as 'Society', whatever a certain 'lady' is frequently (mis)quoted as having said!

I prefer 'community' to 'society' . . .

[alan_fincher]

 

And with regard to the Police, Fire and Ambulance Services, it could be argued that accessing boats is, generally, far more expensive than accessing a roadside property. I have seen police patrols (on foot and on bicycles) patrolling the towpath, I have seen the air ambulance landing in a remote spot to rescue an injured boater and I have seen all three services attending a serious incident at a remote lock.

How many of the ambulance or air ambulance stories relate to things you or Jane have managed to do to yourself or each other Graham?

 

Didn't you go through a bit of a spell trying to get full value for money out of the medical services?

[DeanS]

Just to clarify this point.

I pay NI.

I pay business tax.

I pay council tax.

 

Just in case anyone wondered

 

Taxes, wherever they come from, are used to pay for the infrastructure within Britain, so if you chose to live here, surely you should contribute.