New court ruling on council tax for liveaboards.

[DaveC]

Rubbish collection - A boater cant expect the council to send a bin man to the towpath to collect his rubbish on a daily basis as do land dwellers. A boater has to dispose of his own rubbish...often into the fire it goes.

 

 

Dean

 

Tell me which land dwellers have their rubbish collected daily - ours is collected once a fortnight!

 

 

 

 

Dave

[churchward]

As the majority of Council Income comes from central Government you are wrong. Council tax accounts for between 20 and 25% of the total income a council receives.

I agree that much of the Council Budget will come from Government grant via general taxation. The figure on average is more like 70% Central funds and 30% Council tax although it does vary from region to region.

 

It does mean (whether 20% or 30% contribution from council tax) it is still a significant under payment if someone who should pay is not paying it.

 

I think it is not likely to be sensible or worthwhile to collect a kind fo council tax contribution from CCers but liveaboards who stay in one area and the boat is their main dwelling then they should pay in my opinion. Not using some services is no reason not to pay. Not all house dwellers use all the services either. I don't have children for instance so no need of education services.

 

The OP is about a court rulling on a liveaboard who did not move from their mooring. I think the ruling was a correct one.

[sueb]

 

Whoever told you was wrong !!

 

Business Rates cover any part of the business - buildings, sheds,workshops, wharfs etc etc - but specifically excludes any part that is residential.

 

That residential dwelling must be assesed and pay council tax.

 

An analogy would be - I own a shop, part of upstairs is used for storage and part as a 'flat'. It is all owned by the 'business' and I 'run' the shop as well as own it.

 

I have to pay business rates on the shop and storage area, & I have to pay council tax on the 'flat'

It was the person in charge of BW customer services at the time.

[cotswoldsman]

I agree that much of the Council Budget will come from Government grant via general taxation. The figure on average is more like 70% Central funds and 30% Council tax although it does vary from region to region.

 

It does mean (whether 20% or 30% contribution from council tax) it is still a significant under payment if someone who should pay is not paying it.

 

I think it is not likely to be sensible or worthwhile to collect a kind fo council tax contribution from CCers but liveaboards who stay in one area and the boat is their main dwelling then they should pay in my opinion. Not using some services is no reason not to pay. Not all house dwellers use all the services either. I don't have children for instance so no need of education services.

 

The OP is about a court rulling on a liveaboard who did not move from their mooring. I think the ruling was a correct one.

I would say the 30% under payment is fair as CCers use only maybe 20% of the services provided.

[churchward]

I would say the 30% under payment is fair as CCers use only maybe 20% of the services provided.

As I said I don't think it sensible for CCers to be charged Council Tax but live aboards who stay put is another matter and should pay as per the ruling in the OP.

 

In any case under use fo services is no excuse not to pay as I put n my post you quoted I do not use all services provided. under use is not the point. The services are there whether you need them right now or not and there is such a thing as providing for those who cannot pay not just a selfish I am alright jack outlook.

[Tuscan]

I agree with Churchward

[twbm]

What is council tax for? Can someone list it in specific points, so I can cross check what I make use of and what I dont. At the moment I do pay council tax, but I feel that living in a boat the size of 10ft x 57ft, you should not pay the same as someone living in a brick and mortar house...for many reasons....for example...the local kids can stand on boats and rock them , causing internal damage...the police could do nothing but watch....however if kids were trashing someones house, I think they would act differently. In short...I dont think boaters have the same level of council services as land based humans.

 

Police, Fire, Roads, Street lighting, refuse collection, recycling, leisure facilities, housing, precept to the local County Council.

 

No, mine comes by coal boat, who pays a traders licence.

I also pay car tax, which quite obviously goes towards the upkeep, maintenance and planning of our road system. Ho ho!!!!

 

Where does the coal boat pick it up?

[cotswoldsman]

As I said I don't think it sensible for CCers to be charged Council Tax but live aboards who stay put is another matter and should pay as per the ruling in the OP.

 

In any case under use fo services is no excuse not to pay as I put n my post you quoted I do not use all services provided. under use is not the point. The services are there whether you need them right now or not and there is such a thing as providing for those who cannot pay not just a selfish I am alright jack outlook.

I trust you are not accusing me of the "selfish I am alright Jack outlook"? I am simply pointing out that CCers are paying 70% of the council's income and that would seem a fair amount to me. I would also point out that a number of CCers also pay council tax it is not exclusive to leisure boaters.

[churchward]

I trust you are not accusing me of the "selfish I am alright Jack outlook"? I am simply pointing out that CCers are paying 70% of the council's income and that would seem a fair amount to me. I would also point out that a number of CCers also pay council tax it is not exclusive to leisure boaters.

Are you just reading the bits of my posts that you might not like?

 

Please find and quote back to me where I have said CCers should pay Council Tax.

[Grace and Favour]

If one follows some of the arguments on this thread, one could surmise that if one does not use 100% of the services, then there's a logic that 100% of the tax need/should not be paid, and that a proportional sum would be appropriate.

 

Really?

[cotswoldsman]

If one follows some of the arguments on this thread, one could surmise that if one does not use 100% of the services, then there's a logic that 100% of the tax need/should not be paid, and that a proportional sum would be appropriate.

 

Really?

In my case I am certainly not saying that. I am simply trying to point out that aprox 70% of council income comes from general taxation so CCers who do not pay council tax do contribute.

[GoodGurl]

well i'm a CC'r and i pay council tax on my house, for the services i don't use that make up my council tax i offer them to anyone else who needs them.

[ditchcrawler]

When did we have one tax? Before VAT we had purchase tax which was 25% on 'luxury' goods. So most of your electrical goods including your laptop, iPod, etc would cost more than today.

 

And then there is National Insurance which is really just another tax.

 

However, I do agree that our tax system needs much simplification. Why do you pay NI on a lower wage than PAYE. If your wages are deemed too low for one why are they high enough for the other. If the minimum wage is deemed to be lower than a living wage why should you be paying both NI and PAYE.

 

Regards

Pete

I think boating attracted purchase tax at the highest rate

[John Margetts]

This forum keeps going round in the same circles about council tax and a few liveaboard boaters getting something we free.

We do not do "pay as you go" for police, health and education etc, and this is because we are an advanced and civilised society.

In general we pay according to our means via income tax, and if we have no income then the state gives us a small handout (a system that is occasionally abused to the delight of the tabloids).

The concept of paying for local services via a council tax (a renamed Poll Tax) is a very silly way to raise revenue and is a scheme invented by a certain Mrs Thatcher in her mission to "make everyone a capitalist. Much of the funding for local services is actually a grant from central government (income Tax) and the level of poll tax is mostly controlled by central government in a way to cause maximum pain for councils of the opposite political persuasion.

 

I have paid income tax all my life, and now I have a tiny pension I pay income tax on that. I pay more income tax on my self employed earnings, and yet more tax on any interest from any money I might have in the bank. I can't pay council tax because I live on a boat and keep moving and its a tax on static property.

The Poll tax was intended to be a divisive tax, it appears to be working as intended...so rise above it!!!!!

 

..................Dave

Here here Dave. Thats it in a nutshell. Why do people argue about who "gets away" with what. The whole capitalist system is geared towards keeping the rich rich and the rest of us paying for their riches.

[John Margetts]

I always considered my license to be the equivalent of a local tax in that it pays for my rubbish being taken away - as long as I take it to a bin of course - upkeep of the waterways, mooring rings, etc. Yes I use libraries occasionally but there are a lot of services I do not use. Should I therefore pay for only the ones I do use and not subsidise those I don't? I was born in a socialist country which believed that the wealth created by all should be shared by all. As I got older the system changed to one where you are supposed to pay for what you get and not get what you don't pay for. A selfish bland materialistic world that only thinks that money has any worth. In fact money is utterly worthless. I know which system I prefer but we seem to be getting further and further away from that. Not a very civilised way to go is it, especially when many of the libraries were built by the generous gift of a man called Carnegie who thought that being poor should not be a bar against reading and educating yourself and consequently they were free.

The real issue is that we should be all uniting together on the things that really matter and not knit picking about who pays what in a silly childish squabble about one person getting more sweeties than another. We need to get radical before it's too late and there is nothing left of the brave new world we started to create after the last world war. If we don't boating will only be for the rich.

[Orca]

I think my combined boat/mooring costs (without maintenance, fuel or elektrickery) are around £4550 per annum - less in comparison to a mortgage (assuming a normal percentage deposit, or even rent on a two up, two down terrace in a village (or small cottage). We are really quite contented for the time being! It's still all Thatcher's fault though of course....

 

Edited to add: I'm not a CC'er (but have been for only about 6 months in the past), will be again, but not for now. I wouldn't excpect to pay over and above my boat licence if I was. I don't want to be drawn into the debate on those who stay on towpath moorings for 12 months.....that is long and drawn out! I agree with the alternative lifestyle stance, but there is always some dues to be paid to Thatcher's children (just to keep Carl happy!)

 

Edited to also add: sorry I keep posting at crackers times of the morning, but after a 13 hour shift for a certain over 'MEDIA'ted transport company I have little choice....another ramification of Thatcher!!

Edited April 20, 2013 by Orca

[Guest]

Let Me Google That For You

.....how do you put your own text into a link please?

[Jerra]

The concept of paying for local services via a council tax (a renamed Poll Tax) is a very silly way to raise revenue and is a scheme invented by a certain Mrs Thatcher in her mission to "make everyone a capitalist.

Surely Council Tax is just the old system of rates under another name and this system was in place well before Mrs T

 

Council Tax isn't a poll tax the poll tax aimed to get every adult to pay a tax not just one payment for the property regardless of the number of occupants.

[bowten]

I always considered my license to be the equivalent of a local tax in that it pays for my rubbish being taken away - as long as I take it to a bin of course - upkeep of the waterways, mooring rings, etc. Yes I use libraries occasionally but there are a lot of services I do not use. Should I therefore pay for only the ones I do use and not subsidise those I don't? I was born in a socialist country which believed that the wealth created by all should be shared by all. As I got older the system changed to one where you are supposed to pay for what you get and not get what you don't pay for. A selfish bland materialistic world that only thinks that money has any worth. In fact money is utterly worthless. I know which system I prefer but we seem to be getting further and further away from that. Not a very civilised way to go is it, especially when many of the libraries were built by the generous gift of a man called Carnegie who thought that being poor should not be a bar against reading and educating yourself and consequently they were free.

The real issue is that we should be all uniting together on the things that really matter and not knit picking about who pays what in a silly childish squabble about one person getting more sweeties than another. We need to get radical before it's too late and there is nothing left of the brave new world we started to create after the last world war. If we don't boating will only be for the rich.

Indeed sir!You get a greenie.

[Grace and Favour]

I always considered my license to be the equivalent of a local tax in that it pays for my rubbish being taken away - as long as I take it to a bin of course - upkeep of the waterways, mooring rings, etc. Yes I use libraries occasionally but there are a lot of services I do not use. Should I therefore pay for only the ones I do use and not subsidise those I don't? I was born in a socialist country which believed that the wealth created by all should be shared by all. As I got older the system changed to one where you are supposed to pay for what you get and not get what you don't pay for. A selfish bland materialistic world that only thinks that money has any worth. In fact money is utterly worthless. I know which system I prefer but we seem to be getting further and further away from that. Not a very civilised way to go is it, especially when many of the libraries were built by the generous gift of a man called Carnegie who thought that being poor should not be a bar against reading and educating yourself and consequently they were free.

The real issue is that we should be all uniting together on the things that really matter and not knit picking about who pays what in a silly childish squabble about one person getting more sweeties than another. We need to get radical before it's too late and there is nothing left of the brave new world we started to create after the last world war. If we don't boating will only be for the rich.

An argument oft proposed by those whom wish to draw more from the pot than they've put it.

 

That can be effectively be described as 'greed' in many examples

[Jerra]

Should I therefore pay for only the ones I do use and not subsidise those I don't?

The same question could be asked by those who live on land, short of having everything charged at the point of use I see no way round the problem. For example childless couples still contribute to education.

[John Margetts]

I think my combined boat/mooring costs (without maintenance, fuel or elektrickery) are around £4550 per annum - less in comparison to a mortgage (assuming a normal percentage deposit, or even rent on a two up, two down terrace in a village (or small cottage). We are really quite contented for the time being! It's still all Thatcher's fault though of course....

 

Edited to add: I'm not a CC'er (but have been for only about 6 months in the past), will be again, but not for now. I wouldn't excpect to pay over and above my boat licence if I was. I don't want to be drawn into the debate on those who stay on towpath moorings for 12 months.....that is long and drawn out! I agree with the alternative lifestyle stance, but there is always some dues to be paid to Thatcher's children (just to keep Carl happy!)

 

Edited to also add: sorry I keep posting at crackers times of the morning, but after a 13 hour shift for a certain over 'MEDIA'ted transport company I have little choice....another ramification of Thatcher!!

The comparison and figures sound realistic. Bear in mind that rents are now growing many times faster than wages and are at a ridiculously high level in terms of percentage of income. Yes, it is Thatcher's fault. May she forever be in torment.

[Skye]

Just a theoretical argument but I could never quite get my mind round why people felt that the Community Charge (Poll Tax) was so divisive. In theory it seemed as if it was a scheme where every adult paid an equal amount toward 'community services' like the Police, refuse collection and disposal, local social services etc. To me that seemed to be quite fair - after all we all pay an equal amount for the bread and milk that we buy in the shops . . .

 

In its place we have Council Tax that is only paid by those who enjoy property - either owned or rented and, in practice, there are discounts for single occupancy (I don't yet know how this will be affected by the so called 'Bedroom Tax'), rebates and allowances for those claiming benefits etc. So, it seems to me, that the present system is not really a lot different to the Community Charge - except that the Community Charge that I paid worked out at a bit less that the Council Tax that replaced it. Surely, if everyone paid, the cost burden would be fairly distributed and would work out at less per person than a scheme based solely on property. What is it that I am not seeing?

To you site crew Ainwick and anyone else that can not envisage differential in income due to opportunities in life, I can understand your poor response to this debate.

 

Fortunately I do not have to draw from one of the big outlays a local government provides, social services.

 

The mark of a good society is how it treats them less fortunate than themselves.

 

Some would expect people to pay for insurance etc to buy the services and get the services that they can afford. I believe strongly in we all pay for such services by our means to pay.

 

Sorry, no I'm not, Ainwick, send your private threatening messages to me, because I disagree with you, I do not care. I am proud to be a socialist and your opinions of me are irrelevant.

[Justme]

.....how do you put your own text into a link please?

 

 

Its easy if say you wanted to link to http://www.bbc.co.uk you can do this but without any spaces

 

[ url = http://www.bbc.co.uk ]ANY TEXT YOU WANT [ / url ]

 

Which will then look like this

 

ANY TEXT YOU WANT

[Guest]

.....how do you put your own text into a link please?

 

Type the text you want to appear as a 'link' and highlight it.

 

Click on the chain link icon under 'size' on the toolbar and then past the address of the site you wish to link to in the box that appears and click OK.

 

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