Not having a mooring

[bowten]

Oh! - - I thought Trix was just trying to add a bit of color to the thread?

Colour.

[Grace and Favour]

Colour.

 

er -- - - I know!

[nicknorman]

OP have you considered the Engine Arm at Smethwick? There are residential moorings there, some up for auction at the moment. It's perhaps a bit further away from your ideal location, but not that far!

[carlt]

;For me the crux is bona fide navigation. I don't see how you can be on a bona fide navigation if it is your intention to stay within striking distance of a fixed point be it work, school or what ever.

If you ask a leisure yottie, who carefully plots his course on a chart, feeds it into his computer, checks the weather and tides then pootles a few miles offshore and back again, he would say his navigation was as bona fide as anybody's as would the Dover to Calais ferry captain, plying the same 21 miles and back, several times a day.

 

Ellen Macarthur, on the other hand may disagree, feeling that the only truly bona fide navigation is if you cross an ocean.

 

If I wake up, decide I'm going to navigate to the pub and back, why is that not "bona fide"?

[Halesowenmum]

For what it's worth I think that the peeps that make the CCing rules need to embrace the customer base they now have which is no doubt more diverse than it was many years ago with many more families and people with children wanting to live aboard and hence naturally restricted to a more limited geographical range. The CCing rules are fine for those who don't have to work or who don't have children who attend school.Why should I be not allowed to CC because I send my children to school as any good parent would, and because I work to support my two children and therefore need access to my car each day?

 

I think you are quite right and this something I been advocating for some time now,including the local boaters meetings with Sally Ash.The rules for CCing,IMO,are at the least antiquated.There are more younger people now using the canals to live and work,there are more and more people needing to stay in a certain vicinity in order to sustain a certain standard of life.Not everyone is retired or has the financial ability to CC,some cannot find a mooring whether this is residential or not.Some boaters do not want to live in a marina and would rather move around but in a more defined area than CRT's CCing proposals.If the same boaters are willing to pay an appropriate amount above their current licence to cruise a defined area that gives them the ability to find work or continue to work,get the kids to school etc then this is extra revenue to the Trust.It would also save CRT funds in that they would not have to police the system looking for offenders,at least not to the extent that they may have to.Of course there would have to be rules for these boaters i.e.not staying on 24 or 48 hour moorings,keeping to the agreed zones of cruising and staying only 7 days rather than 14 days at a mooring.I don't believe there is a massive problem with overstayers but I do believe there is a problem for many boaters to stay within the guidelines determined by our landlords CRT,as I have said before CRT must assume the role of the benign landlord and listen to their tenants and future tenants.

 

Well said Bowten.

 

There will obviously be a grey area between one journey where one is continuously cruising, and another, similar, journey where one is not continuously cruising.

 

What is reasonably certain is that cruising up and down the Dudley No 2 will not be seen as continuously cruising. In fact any journey which enables ones children to catch a bus to the sne schools each day, and to return to ones car to go to work, is highly unlikely to be able to be construed as continuously cruising.

 

If you aren't continuously cruising, you need a permanent long term mooring. If you intend to live on your boat, the mooring needs to be residential.

 

Quite simple in most cases?

 

Ok, let's say that yes, it is simple. It's also discriminatory as it only really allows 1. people with no need to work/retired really as the only group who can realistically nomadically cruise. So if they want and feel that all of us lot that can't do that to the way that most people would interpret their rulings, where are all the new permanent residential moorings that are clearly needed yet patently not available? We need moorings, there are none, so why don't they create a whole lot more?! Clearly there aren't enough moorings to go round so no wonder people end up trying to CC within the rules and then end up failing.

 

The water people need to crack on and understand the changing nature of their 'customer' base and what their needs are. As someone has already said, there could be licensing fee benefits for them (although why one should be charged more to cruise less of the waterways I can't fathom.

 

OP have you considered the Engine Arm at Smethwick? There are residential moorings there, some up for auction at the moment. It's perhaps a bit further away from your ideal location, but not that far!

 

Thanks for this idea I'll certainly look into it for sure. It's gonna be ok if there's suitable buses! I'd been thinking of just Halesowen, maybe Dudley but so long as it's not so far away I could always think that bit further afield. There's also Stourbridge as well I guess. I shall get onto my enquiries nxt week as the kids are away at their dad's and I am trying to keep the idea 'on the down low' (as they kids say these days!) until I have something more solid to present to them.

 

Thank you!

[Tuscan]

We had a neighbour once who bought a big house by the main road because it was cheap, immediately started a petition and a campaign for a bypass, others who had been in the area for a long time realised that the main road though busy and not perfect meant that the local pub and village shop kept open with the passing trade which otherwise would force them to close. After a year she decided that village life was not for her and moved on.

 

Not saying this applies to you but maybe you should try it first and then have a go at changing the world. The moorings at Halesowen are on the CRT website.

[Chris Pink]

 

 

I understand that one can be moved on from a mooring or not get it renewed and thus you've then got no mooring. I can also clearly see that there are several ways in which I could end up with my house sold, boat bought and delivered and nowhere to put it (as I need a 'permanent' residential mooring so kids can get to their schools by bus).

 

 

 

Any searing thoughts?!!?

 

I can't be bothered to analyse the whole thread in detail and what I've seen looks like the same old, same old.

 

My searing thoughts; go and talk to local boaters.

 

You will not get a true picture of life on the canal without home mooring and doing the school run from this forum.

You will get plenty of negative from those who don't do this and very little balance from those that do.

 

To add a little bit of balance, I know loads of families who boat in this way within a very supportive and wonderful community. None of them, to my knowledge, post on here.

[Homer 123]

When I had cock complaints I went to the local radio- in fact they came to me after reading about it in the national press. IHad a guest Slot. I said if you live in a vVillage you expect to hear country sounds. If you live near a church you don't complain about the bells. One listener phoned and said she did exactly that! There's always one!

[mayalld]

For what it's worth I think that the peeps that make the CCing rules need to embrace the customer base they now have which is no doubt more diverse than it was many years ago with many more families and people with children wanting to live aboard and hence naturally restricted to a more limited geographical range. The CCing rules are fine for those who don't have to work or who don't have children who attend school.Why should I be not allowed to CC because I send my children to school as any good parent would, and because I work to support my two children and therefore need access to my car each day?

 

The CCing option exists to accomodate those who want to cruise, and consequently have no use for a permanent mooring. It does not, and should not provide ways to accomodate everybody who doesn't want to pay for a mooring or can't find a suitable mooring.

 

In the past, there was a view advanced by certain people that provided you did certain things, you would get away with it. That is no longer the case, and the simple truth is that there are VERY few opportunities to legitimately live on a boat unless you are prepared to actually cruise widely.

 

Having read your responses, I really don't think that any modification to the CCing rules (other than a modification that said you pretty much don't have to cruise) would suit you. It was suggested that you could move to different locations to approach the school in a different way, but you seemed to take that as meaning picking the same bus up a couple of stops down the road.

[carlt]

I've just thought of another issue that might totally make not having a mooring an untenable option. I need to remain at a location where a. my children can walk to the bus stop and catch a bus to school and b. I can get into my car each morning and go to work. So pulling up at a towpath would be great, but then I'm stuffed aren't I - I can hardly shove the Mini into the ditch by the side of the towpath. Hmmmm....

 

I legitimately cced whilst holding down a full time job and accepting a 1 hour maximum commuting time.

 

If you are based in the Midlands your potential cruising area is vast, without ever travelling far from your "hub" but I'd flog the "mini" and stick to cars that you can afford to lose (I had one torched, three trashed and one stolen), that way you won't mind parking up on verges near bridgeholes.

 

Oh and RAC membership is a must if you get to the layby in the morning and find that the car pixies have been at work.

 

Once my son started school I took a long term mooring and the cost, compared to the commuting, was comparable.

Edited February 14, 2013 by carlt

[Halesowenmum]

The CCing option exists to accomodate those who want to cruise, and consequently have no use for a permanent mooring. It does not, and should not provide ways to accomodate everybody who doesn't want to pay for a mooring or can't find a suitable mooring.

 

In the past, there was a view advanced by certain people that provided you did certain things, you would get away with it. That is no longer the case, and the simple truth is that there are VERY few opportunities to legitimately live on a boat unless you are prepared to actually cruise widely.

 

Having read your responses, I really don't think that any modification to the CCing rules (other than a modification that said you pretty much don't have to cruise) would suit you. It was suggested that you could move to different locations to approach the school in a different way, but you seemed to take that as meaning picking the same bus up a couple of stops down the road.

 

I don't want to not pay for a mooring - I'd love a mooring, that would be the easiest thing for me yet I've been forced to consider CCing (albeit possibly only temporarily whilst I wait for an elusive mooring to become available who knows when - but there seem to be very few of them which dosn't make complying easy does it. So yes you are right, there are limited opportunities to live on a boat - on a mooring - because there are so few moorings.

 

Clearly I can't comply with the terms of CCing when I have to get two children to school every morning because by definition this limits the geographical distance I could travel. Can I just say though that I didn't propose moving the distance of two bus stops, rather a 2 mile distance (by road, longer by waterway no doubt as it's a rather curvy section).

 

There is the possibility for the CCing bods to modify their rules to accommodate people who have children in education. All they would have to do is say ok, prove your children attend this school, prove their level of attendance too if they want, you provide the proof to them, they provide an exemption to having to move many miles over a period of time and allow you to move around but within a geographical limitation which still allows you to get your children to school. Why should children of this age not have the chance to experience life on the water, what an enriching experience for them surely?

 

But clearly within the current terms, that's not possible - and I was asking about how it all works as a responsible parent who does not wish to sell her home and find that I could then get chucked off the water and be rendered homeless.

[furnessvale]

When I had cock complaints...........

 

Did you really mean to say that? :-)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Halesowenmum]

We had a neighbour once who bought a big house by the main road because it was cheap, immediately started a petition and a campaign for a bypass, others who had been in the area for a long time realised that the main road though busy and not perfect meant that the local pub and village shop kept open with the passing trade which otherwise would force them to close. After a year she decided that village life was not for her and moved on.

 

Not saying this applies to you but maybe you should try it first and then have a go at changing the world. The moorings at Halesowen are on the CRT website.

 

I have absolutely no idea what this post is about, sorry.

 

I legitimately cced whilst holding down a full time job and accepting a 1 hour maximum commuting time.

 

If you are based in the Midlands your potential cruising area is vast, without ever travelling far from your "hub" but I'd flog the "mini" and stick to cars that you can afford to lose (I had one torched, three trashed and one stolen), that way you won't mind parking up on verges near bridgeholes.

 

Oh and RAC membership is a must if you get to the layby in the morning and find that the car pixies have been at work.

 

Once my son started school I took a long term mooring and the costs, compared to the commuting, was comparable.

 

Thanks carlt. I feel that I still need to explore CCing in order to determine if I could do it within the terms, and still meet my needs. I could always taxi from where I am in the boat to get my car every two weeks when I moved. I think it would be daft of me not to figure out if I can accommodating CCing because as others on this forum have said, there may be times where a mooring no long is available, or where it is not renewed for me, or if I sell the house and have the boat but haven't got a mooring yet. So when I've got more time I'll look more into this and yey or ney it then I'll know whether I just simply need to hold everything until I have found a permanent mooring, or whether I can spend some time legitimately CCing until that time comes. Thank you!

[Higgs]

But clearly within the current terms, that's not possible - and I was asking about how it all works as a responsible parent who does not wish to sell her home and find that I could then get chucked off the water and be rendered homeless.

 

The conditions aren't perfect for everyone. It's a balance. Limitations on both sides. If CC'ing is not going to be possible, that's it.

[alan_fincher]

I can't be bothered to analyse the whole thread in detail and what I've seen looks like the same old, same old.

 

My searing thoughts; go and talk to local boaters.

 

You will not get a true picture of life on the canal without home mooring and doing the school run from this forum.

You will get plenty of negative from those who don't do this and very little balance from those that do.

 

To add a little bit of balance, I know loads of families who boat in this way within a very supportive and wonderful community. None of them, to my knowledge, post on here.

Whilst I fully understand where Chris is coming from, I would issue a strong warning.....

 

If you go and engage live-aboard boaters on the topic of CC-ing, and what is tolerated in an area, and what is not, then please be aware you will be talking about the situation as it largely has been for many years, most of the time under British Waterways, with little enforcement, or live-aboard boaters doing deals with local enforcement officers about how much they need to do to stay off the radar.

 

Now any advice you receive may remain valid in the area you are interested in for quite a while, and the current status quo may continue, but this simply cannot be relied upon.

 

I can firmly assure you that f you come and engage such boaters further South, on the environs of London, many will tell you a very different story now. A push for much tougher enforcement by CRT has many such boaters genuinely scared for the first time ever, and there is a mad scramble to pay silly money for the very few permanent moorings that ever come up for auction. Where no viable moorings are available at all, there are some seriously worried people.

 

And Chris, I may not be a live-aboard boater, but I do know what I'm talking about for this area, being for example at my third meeting with the Cowley Uxbridge Boaters last night. Many who have bought a boat thereabout on the say so of other boaters who have told them "there will be no problem" are now in panic, because they really have no "plan B", and their home is potentially at risk.

 

I can't say if, or when, CRT will ramp up their presence in the West Midlands as they have down here, but trust me, if they do, it hurts some people very badly. Those most affected are those whose life means they do need to be close to schools or work, and have few transport options.

 

If you want to ignore advice I gave in an earlier post, then do so, but it is heartfelt, based on my own experience of what I'm seeing on the ground. Things are changing and CRT seem very committed to keeping the pressure on on "non compliant continous cruisers". They have been allocated extra funds in respect of enforcement, and will be recruiting people nationally over the weeks ahead. I don't think it is a storm in a teacup - they seem much more serious than I have seen before.

[Chagall]

I don't want to not pay for a mooring - I'd love a mooring, that would be the easiest thing for me yet I've been forced to consider CCing (albeit possibly only temporarily whilst I wait for an elusive mooring to become available who knows when - but there seem to be very few of them which dosn't make complying easy does it. So yes you are right, there are limited opportunities to live on a boat - on a mooring - because there are so few moorings.

 

Clearly I can't comply with the terms of CCing when I have to get two children to school every morning because by definition this limits the geographical distance I could travel. Can I just say though that I didn't propose moving the distance of two bus stops, rather a 2 mile distance (by road, longer by waterway no doubt as it's a rather curvy section).

 

There is the possibility for the CCing bods to modify their rules to accommodate people who have children in education. All they would have to do is say ok, prove your children attend this school, prove their level of attendance too if they want, you provide the proof to them, they provide an exemption to having to move many miles over a period of time and allow you to move around but within a geographical limitation which still allows you to get your children to school. Why should children of this age not have the chance to experience life on the water, what an enriching experience for them surely?

 

But clearly within the current terms, that's not possible - and I was asking about how it all works as a responsible parent who does not wish to sell her home and find that I could then get chucked off the water and be rendered homeless.

 

Then surely as a responsible parent whilst you have children at school, and until a permanent mooring becomes available then you could perhaps stay in the house? Why should CRT provide a means to allow you to stay in or near a town location because you fancy enriching your children's life.

 

If supposing they ever agreed to your 'fix it for me' stance then the canal would soon become packed with families assuming, incorrectly, that narrowboat living is cheaper. Genuine CC'rs would soon have no place at all to stop and visit a town. Towpaths could become a nightmare scenario of a constant string of boats festooned with prams, bikes, bouncing castles, etc...etc... Threatening that very peace and quiet that people escape to.

 

Do your children a favour from forced cramped living and take them on the towpath for walks to enrich their lives.

[Halesowenmum]

Did you really mean to say that? :-)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

I did wonder...

[Halesowenmum]

Then surely as a responsible parent whilst you have children at school, and until a permanent mooring becomes available then you could perhaps stay in the house? Why should CRT provide a means to allow you to stay in or near a town location because you fancy enriching your children's life.

 

If supposing they ever agreed to your 'fix it for me' stance then the canal would soon become packed with families assuming, incorrectly, that narrowboat living is cheaper. Genuine CC'rs would soon have no place at all to stop and visit a town. Towpaths could become a nightmare scenario of a constant string of boats festooned with prams, bikes, bouncing castles, etc...etc... Threatening that very peace and quiet that people escape to.

 

Do your children a favour from forced cramped living and take them on the towpath for walks to enrich their lives.

Er, yes, obviously, if CCing isn't an option I will of course have to stay in my house. But there could be occasions where a mooring could become unavailable having been available for some time - then I'd have to have a plan B, wouldn't I.

 

Your implication is that I am, on a whimsy, deciding to buy a narrowboat. This is not the case. I'm absolutely not willing to go into details about the financial benefits that buying a narrowboat would provide me (which by the way are not attached to some idiotic misconception that it would be chepaer month to month). For your information I would welcome the 'cramped conditions' (how much room do you need for goodness sakes - isn't just having somewhere warm and dry what matters, really?) and the change in family life that this different way of living would provide.

 

The waterways should not just be for people who don't have to work and the limited moorings situation makes it that way. And the peace and quiet is one of the things I personally would be looking forward to, sandwiched as I am currently between family 1 who scream at their children all day long and family 2 who carry out criminal activity from their property and have 48 hr parties on a regular basis. The assumption that I am going to pole up with a screaming rabble of vile children is quite insulting - my children have been taught politeness and respecting other people and I cannot conceive of my ever allowing them to cause a nuisance to anyone else and we are WAY past the stage of using bouncy castles and prams.

[Dave_P]

Er, yes, obviously, if CCing isn't an option I will of course have to stay in my house. But there could be occasions where a mooring could become unavailable having been available for some time - then I'd have to have a plan B, wouldn't I.

 

Your implication is that I am, on a whimsy, deciding to buy a narrowboat. This is not the case. I'm absolutely not willing to go into details about the financial benefits that buying a narrowboat would provide me (which by the way are not attached to some idiotic misconception that it would be chepaer month to month). For your information I would welcome the 'cramped conditions' (how much room do you need for goodness sakes - isn't just having somewhere warm and dry what matters, really?) and the change in family life that this different way of living would provide.

 

The waterways should not just be for people who don't have to work and the limited moorings situation makes it that way. And the peace and quiet is one of the things I personally would be looking forward to, sandwiched as I am currently between family 1 who scream at their children all day long and family 2 who carry out criminal activity from their property and have 48 hr parties on a regular basis. The assumption that I am going to pole up with a screaming rabble of vile children is quite insulting - my children have been taught politeness and respecting other people and I cannot conceive of my ever allowing them to cause a nuisance to anyone else and we are WAY past the stage of using bouncy castles and prams.

 

You seem to have 4 options:

 

1. Stay put in your house. Easily acheivable but not what you want!

2. Get a residential mooring. Keeps you completely compliant with the law but hard to find sometimes.

3. Get a leisure mooring. Not very compliant but actually a very viable option in practice.

4. Continuously cruise. Difficult for you while you have kids at school.

 

Option 3 hasn't been discussed here much but there are many many people living on leisure moorings. It's a bit 'under the radar' yes but the simple fact is, I'm not aware of legal action ever being taken by BW / CaRT on this issue. In private marinas it's a bit different sometimes but around Halesowen there's probably more CaRT moorings anyway. CaRT have bigger fish to fry with non-compliant cc'ers anyway. Around Birmingham / Black Country there's quite a few non-compliant cc'ers who up to now have only had minimal enforcement on them, nothing like the Kennet & Avon. So realistically, what's the chance that CaRT will start cracking down on people on leisure moorings?

 

I'm 99.9% sure that there's people living on leisure moorings in Halesowen so why shouldn't you look into joining them?

[bowten]

Well said halesowenmum,but you are not going to change the minds of the well pensioned retired,the weekender,the shared boat owner or the folk who want to see everybody in the marinas that don't exist or can't be afforded.When these folk and CRT get their way it's the beginning of the end of this rich,diversified water world.There must be a solution found otherwise the Trust will be TRYING to crane out a lot of homes of boaters.I hope our Landlords understand the enormity of their current course.

[14skipper]

Car&t are not a housing authority nor are they social services.Whilst they may have a duty towards boaters who buy a license to moor or move on their waters.

l don,nt think they should have to alter the rules to accommodate all those who would like to live on the canals just because their circumstances don,nt match the criteria that are in-force at this time.

l understand there is a lack of housing and people are turning to boats for housing but when they do so,they should do it under the rules.And yes sorry there has to be rules,nice to think l will just drop out of the rat race move on to the canals and just do my own thing well sorry it does not work like that.If you have a mooring you can stay there if its residential you can live there.If you are a C Cruiser then you are expected to move along the system as the rules dictate.

Rocket science it an,t.

There are lots of people who live on the system who have kids jobs etc,who live within the rules and fair play to them.

Seems people want to move on to the system and have the rules altered to suit themselves.Or just ignore them and then complain when the rules are enforced.

In my opinion the system has been abused for too long and its about time the rules were enforced more stringently.

 

Rant over can go back and sit in the sun.

 

14skipper

Edited February 14, 2013 by 14skipper

[Dave_P]

Car&t are not a housing authority nor are they social services.Whilst they may have a duty towards boaters who buy a license to moor or move on their waters.

l don,nt think they should have to alter the rules to accommodate all those who would like to live on the canals just because their circumstances don,nt match the criteria that are in-force at this time.

l understand there is a lack of housing and people are turning to boats for housing but when they do so,they should do it under the rules.And yes sorry there has to be rules,nice to think l will just drop out of the rat race move on to the canals and just do my own thing well sorry it does not work like that.If you have a mooring you can stay there if its residential you can live there.If you are a C Cruiser then you are expected to move along the system as the rules dictate.

Rocket science it an,t.

There are lots of people who live on the system who have kids jobs etc,who live within the rules and fair play to them.

Seems people want to move on to the system and have the rules altered to suit themselves.Or just ignore them and then complain when the rules are enforced.

In my opinion the system has been abused for too long and its about time the rules were enforced more stringently.

 

Rant over can go back and sit in the sun.

 

14skipper

 

Seems to work fine for a lot of people though.

[KenK]

C&RT Mooring Auctions currently have two residental moorings available on the Engine Arm, which isn't a million miles away from Dudley No2, guide price just under £2000 per year, secure site with facilities.

 

Ken

[Halesowenmum]

C&RT Mooring Auctions currently have two residental moorings available on the Engine Arm, which isn't a million miles away from Dudley No2, guide price just under £2000 per year, secure site with facilities.

 

Ken

 

Cripes I've done a search for this on t'internet but can't seem to find much about it - just a pub comes up. Any pointers on a website or contact person (I will look again later but thought I should probably have a good look at this option fairly quickly).

[mayalld]

I don't want to not pay for a mooring - I'd love a mooring, that would be the easiest thing for me yet I've been forced to consider CCing (albeit possibly only temporarily whilst I wait for an elusive mooring to become available who knows when - but there seem to be very few of them which dosn't make complying easy does it. So yes you are right, there are limited opportunities to live on a boat - on a mooring - because there are so few moorings.

 

It is a fact of life that we can't necessarily have what we want. There is a limited amount of opportunity to live on your boat at a mooring, and that becomes even more limited if you want to live on a mooring in a particular area. Its no different to trying to find a really nice house. The really nice ones don't come up very often.

 

So, if you want to live on board without having to move, you need to consider other locations. That may mean a longer commute, or it may mean relocating (I know where there are two moorings with residential PP coming free within days within commuting distance of Manchester)

 

Clearly I can't comply with the terms of CCing when I have to get two children to school every morning because by definition this limits the geographical distance I could travel. Can I just say though that I didn't propose moving the distance of two bus stops, rather a 2 mile distance (by road, longer by waterway no doubt as it's a rather curvy section).

 

Sorry, but 2 miles is to all intents and purposes no different to not moving at all. Why does it limit the distance that you could travel? Are there no bus routes that would get the kids to school from a completely different direction?

 

There is the possibility for the CCing bods to modify their rules to accommodate people who have children in education. All they would have to do is say ok, prove your children attend this school, prove their level of attendance too if they want, you provide the proof to them, they provide an exemption to having to move many miles over a period of time and allow you to move around but within a geographical limitation which still allows you to get your children to school. Why should children of this age not have the chance to experience life on the water, what an enriching experience for them surely?

 

Because the purpose of the CCing rules is NOT to facilitate people who want to stay in a small area. They are to facilitate people who want to move to different areas.

 

You want permission for your kids school. Can I have permission for the pub darts team?

 

I'm afraid that your posts just sound like a whole load of "I want, I want, I want, I don't want to play this game by your rules, go and change the rules to suit me"