The unknown pitfalls of buying a narrowboat.

[rockmine]

I have to own up, I'm a newbie to boat buying. A newbie but not a complete idiot.

 

The premise was simple: find a boat that suited my needs and looked acceptable, go and see the various candidates at marinas and canals across England and Scotland, then put in an offer subject to survey.

 

That was what I read one did, so I did likewise. I settled after several months of looking, on a boat called "Manu Tahi" being sold at ******* Marina . When I saw it, the asking price was £ 19,950. Several weeks after first seeing it, I found it was still available. To me, it offered everything I wanted and above all, it had a good "feel" about it. I'd discounted dozens of other craft and was happy to put an offer on the boat. My first offer was refused but my second accepted - £ 17,950. It had a homely feel to it but was tired and in need of work on the interior which I accepted.

 

I booked a survey with an independent surveyor included in a list provided by Whilton. The surveyor, Craig Allen even said I could be on hand when he looked at the boat. As it would let me see all the problems first hand with an expert safety examiner, I jumped at the chance.

 

On Monday, 19th November, I met Mr A**** at *******. We were unable to start with the hull survey as a crane would using the area adjoining the slipway but as I had travelled down from Perthshire in Scotland, someone at the marina made sure we were able to start on other elements of the survey.

 

It was an eye-opener. Behind a pleasant enough exterior, a series of major issues needed to be dealt with. The boat failed its survey on several safety issues but also a major insurance one. The hull needed to be re-plated.

 

Oddly, I wasn't undaunted and went back to the marina office to give them an update on the surveyor's verbal comments. A couple of salesmen gave me a price per foot for re-plating but pointed out they were not necessarily the cheapest and there were other companies who could do the work.

 

By the end of the week, I had the full survey report and a copy had per my instructions been sent to *******. After a couple of days, they put a cost on the safety and insurance work of £ 14,010 inclusive of V.A.T. The surveyor's Conclusion & Valuation had stated, "Upon completion of all Insurance and boat Safety works, I feel the offer of £ 17,950 to be a reasonable one."

 

I was told by *******that after commission, the vendor would get £ 2,240. Someone had mentioned that the boat was his pride and joy and as such, news of the work needing undertaken must have been heart-breaking. I really felt for the seller and was prepared to increase my price to cushion the blow slightly. That was how things were left on Sunday.

 

On the afternoon of Tuesday 27th November I was contacted by Whilton and told that the vendor was not prepared to sell at the agreed price but wanted their original price of £ 20,950. I had already paid a £ 1,000 deposit which is meant to stop gazumping and yet, here I was effectively being gazumped. I countered with a verbal offer of £ 19,495 which a short time later I was told had been accepted.

 

That was when things took an unexpected turn. A salesman called ****** from *******told me that they had bought the boat from the vendor and waived their commission as they would make their money on doing the re-plating work. I was suddenly in a situation where I was no longer able to consider other companies but being forced to accept *******'s price and their terms. They made it clear that the plating could not be started until late January or February which I had stated was unacceptable. As my plan had always been to have the boat transported to Scotland by road, I saw no problem in taking it to anyone who could do the work. Needless to say I remembered the words of the salesman who had said there were other companies who could re-plate for less.

 

I'm assured by ******* that these are standard practices which I would love to doubt. Setting that aside however, there is the issue of ******* buying a boat at a knock-down price based on a survey that I had paid for. I asked if the survey money would be reimbursed as a result but was told they would only ever do a hull survey which would cost £ 250 (not the £ 500 I was charged). My reaction was to ask for that but was told it would not be forthcoming if I decided not to proceed.

 

If this is a commonplace practice, I despair as it seems that both vendor and purchaser are entering into a contract with each other, which the seller's agents then rip up and ignore.

 

My understanding is this: I was buying a boat from a private individual subject to survey. That survey showed work needed to be carried out and either the vendor would carry it out and sell at the agreed price, or reduce the price by the amount. For *******to ignore what I believed to be a binding contract and buy the boat and sell to me at a higher price is ridiculous and not what I would have expected from a reputable company.

 

If these are standard practices, then I do feel people need to be aware of them. I'm sure such practices would not be tolerated in the housing market, or even car sales.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Theo

[Grace and Favour]

I have to own up, I'm a newbie to boat buying. A newbie but not a complete idiot.

 

 

If these are standard practices, then I do feel people need to be aware of them. I'm sure such practices would not be tolerated in the housing market, or even car sales.

 

I strongly advise that you get the services of a (marine) lawyer and investigate the options before you go any further!

Edited November 28, 2012 by Theo

[Titan]

Hello and welcome.

Firstly I feel for you, I am not apt enough to comment on your post as many on this forum will soon cast far better advice than i can offer. Like you I spent many , too many visits to marinas searching. And im sure you will have several people post several views, that will differ which will lead to several several discussions. However i truly believe you will gleen some good advice and more. For my own part, visiting the fore mentioned to view boats, i must of been a dozen times if not more and i left learning more and more. On 3 occasions i was keen on certain lower priced craft. And all i can say is these craft were almost non negotiable on price ? Unless survey was done first. That said could be acceptable, but not for me as im a prat and think price first then spend to knock em again !!! nothing wrong with that in my eyes as for me its worked so far. But just before i gave up going to said area to view boats everything seemed for a while, sold with a full survey ???? and many boats apparently to my untarined eye, may of been blacked or indeed had plating done to satisfy surveys.I seem to remember? these craft roughly at the same price as seen before ??? But include survey. ??? Im just airing my personal observations which promted me to no longer seek to purchase from the like. Your experience, and my views do seem to tie a couple of point ?

 

I wish you good luck, Better future expereiences, and a boat that brings youy smiles and contenetment. regards Martin

[LoneWolf]

They saw you coming. Walk away and sue then for the deposit back

 

You'll find another ideal boat

[Brin Morris]

I would take back my £1000 deposit and you would have to write off the £500 for survey, You should not let them have a copy of the survey as that is your property. They will then have to do the work and try to resell the boat, If they know they have a buyer waiting then it is an attractive deal for them. I would personally have walked away when they tried to change the price as the deposit is returnable if there is a major problem with the boat. I have just bought a boat from ******** ****** who ******* have taken over and did not have a problem but if they would have messed me about I would have taken my buisiness elswhere.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Theo

[leeco]

I don't think there are any unknown pitfalls in buying a boat. If you let people con you they will and con you even more.

[IainW]

hey rockmine, sorry to hear your boating adventure hasn't started too well.

 

it sounds like your relationship with the marina isn't going to go anywhere nice, so perhaps a big deep breath and swallowing the £500 loss is the way to go. Hopefully they won't mess you about with the deposit. They may even lose more than £500 in a sales commission if newbies read this!

 

unless the boat feels 100% like 'your boat' then I'm sure you will find a better one.

 

we looked at Whilton and Braunston and the big marinas down south before getting a boat from Blue Water Marina in Yorkshire and trucking it up to Scotland. We found in general the smaller, more northern marinas to be a bit more personable.

 

all the best, hope to see you out and about on the canals up here...

[blackrose]

Personally I'd have walked away as soon as the extent of the necessary replating became clear.

 

Never let the "loss" of a survey fee persuade you to continue with the purchase of a boat with a thin hull (unless that's what you want?) Swallow the £500 fee and walk away with your deposit. A reasonable surveyor will give you a reduced price on a subsequent survey on a different boat.

[Pembroke]

This sounds ridiculous

We just bought our first boat and like yourself spent an eternity looking at them before we found a layout which we thought would work.

What we did find was that there seemed to be a lot of boats for sale, this could be a time of year thing or a sign of the economic times.

I would suggest if the boat was bought "subject to survey" and it failed its survey then the price is either renegotiated or the deposit is refunded

You need to go through the terms and conditions of sale from Whilton and find out what they say.

Assuming they say nothing about having to carry out the work then they either have to sell the boat to you or refund all your money

By the sound of it you had a deal and they are now trying to renegotiate which is fine but only if both parties can agree.

Maybe in the short term keep the verbal dialogue going but give them a deadline to sort this out

Then once that has expired send them a letter asking for the money (old fashioned I know) stating the amount and reasons with a 5 day deadline then if that fails a send them a notice of intended legal action again stating the amount but this time telling them they will be responsible for all costs

They may well try to play a game of brinkmanship but keep your powder dry and be firm

[Jamboat]

They saw you coming. Walk away and sue then for the deposit back

 

You'll find another ideal boat

 

Good advice, walk & take 'em to the small claims court to get your money back

 

 

 

[GSer]

If it were me i'd walk away and go through the motions of recovering your deposit.

 

I had a survey on a boat that raised serious concerns, i took it on the chin and walked away, that too was at *******, it was a horrible time for us, as the boat in question seemed to suit us well, a week later with glum thoughts in our heads we started to look again, straight away we found a boat that suited us even better, from a lovely seller and an honest helpful broker.

 

Good luck

 

Paul

Edited November 28, 2012 by Theo

[Graham.m]

I know from my own dealing with that place over boats sales they are not a place I would go to in the future, and no I did not buy my boat from them I walked away, things just did not feel right when trying to deal with them.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Graham.m

[Tuscan]

I would want the boat overplated by someone I could trust not someone seeking to maximise their profit. My advice is seek legal advice to recover your deposit and walk away. Its very sad but demonstrates why having a survey is so important. The marina is acting in their interest not yours!

Edited November 28, 2012 by Tuscan

[Theo]

I fear that I need to remove names to fit in with FR&G.

 

Nick

Edited November 28, 2012 by Theo

[RLWP]

Isn't this the key phrase:

 

A salesman called ***** *from the broker told me that they had bought the boat from the vendor

 

When did this happen? If it was after you paid your deposit, then the vendor sold the boat to someone else before completing the contract between the two of you. He can't sell you a boat because he hasn't got one, he must give you your deposit back

 

Richard

Edited November 28, 2012 by Theo

[sueb]

I would have thought you were entitled to the survey money back from the marina if they intend using it

[Bee]

This is a nasty situation but you are still the one with the money and you still have the whip hand. I don`t think you will ever feel comfortable if you buy this boat. There are many boats out there. It is a buyers market. Walk away. The survey is indeed your property.Go and sit down with a beer and gather your thoughts. See a solicitor and get them to send a letter. Keep looking.Good Luck.

[Alanji]

I have a copy of a pre-purchase agreement from V*******, which is presumably the same as W****** use as they are now the same company.

The vendor is required to make good any Boat Safety or Insurance defects or reduce the price by the same amount. If he does not do so, you are entitled to your deposit back but not the survey fee. Sue in the small claims court, as already suggested, if they do not return your deposit.

Hard as it may seem I think you have little chance of getting your survey fee back unless there was misrepresentation, although the action by the boatyard is obviously very bad practice.

[GeoffS]

I bought a boat from the same marina and, though not having any of the problems you are describing, was led to believe that I was dealing with and making an offer to a seller but then it turns out they owned it all along. Very unprofessional at the best, I wonder what a good lawyer would make of it. The sign at their entrance says 'Narrowboats bought for cash' which should be a warning bell. Would never give any business to them in the future.

[shugie]

If you paid a £1000 deposit, it would appear that you had formed a contract to buy. If there was a subsequent breach of contract, you can sue for all your losses, possibly including the survey fees, your travelling costs, other related costs and of course the deposit back.

 

Forget the boat, there are loads out there to choose from, find a hungry solicitor and set them on the boatyard.

[Dave_P]

My first move would be to arrange an appointment at the citizens advice bureau. They will be able to tell you where you stand legally and what measures you need to take to recover your costs.

 

As other people have said, walk away from this boat. These people don't deserve your custom.

 

I bought my boat at ******** and I now have mixed feelings about them (long story).

 

I used to moor next to someone who bought from Whilton and he usually starts swearing as soon as their name is mentioned!

Edited November 28, 2012 by Theo
Please don't bad mouth named firms on the public forum.

[junior]

I was going to ask which marina it was as i have just started my boat search and will be looking to purchase just after Christmas I presume it is ******* has that name has been mentioned in the subsequent posts. I've been walking the towpaths around here and chatting to people in the marinas I've visited. EVERYONE has told me to stay away from *******, so that coupled with this thread means i shall definitely not be going to look at any there so their actions are already having a negative impact on their business.

 

I am sorry for your experiences so far. I'm slightly concerned that when i start viewing seriously in a couple of weeks, I'll be doing it on my own with nobody of experience to call on as i would always do when buying a car. I guess that is what the survey is for. I did meet a nice couple who were at one of the mooring locations i went to visit this weekend though, who said that she used to work for a narrowboat brokers and knows how they do business They said i could always go and give them a knock and they would come and view a boat with me if i wanted them too. A lovely offer i though.

 

If it were me in your situation, i would be seeking legal advice as soon as possible. This thread will also hopefully have a negative impact on their future business also.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Theo

[Dominic M]

I bought a boat from the same marina and, though not having any of the problems you are describing, was led to believe that I was dealing with and making an offer to a seller but then it turns out they owned it all along. Very unprofessional at the best, I wonder what a good lawyer would make of it. The sign at their entrance says 'Narrowboats bought for cash' which should be a warning bell. Would never give any business to them in the future.

I can tell you exactly what a good lawyer would make of it. It has been illegal for several decades not to declare if you are selling an item in the course of business. I quote:

 

The Business Advertisement Disclosure Order 1977 requires all advertisements by people who seek to sell goods in the course of business to make the fact clear. This requirement applies whether the advertiser is acting on his own behalf or for some other person in the course of whose business goods are to be sold. Consumers should be able to tell whether an advertisement relates to a sale by a Trader or a Private seller. It is the responsibility of the Advertiser to comply with the order. It is an offence for which you may be prosecuted not to advertise the fact that you are a Trader.

 

They are further bound by the Sale of Goods Act 1979. The main provisions of the act are that goods should be of 'satisfactory quality' and 'fit for their purpose', which is where the requirement of a business sale comes in.

 

It would seem in the case of the OP that (i) the vendor is in breach of the agreement to sell it to you in accordance with the terms, and (ii) you should immediately take up the issue of the broker being complicit in causing that breach by buying the craft instead, using your survey in part to do so, with Trading Standards. In effect, they ceased to act as the broker, and instead became a competitor, with a grossly unfair advantage at that.

 

I say this with the caveat that I can only comment on what information has been provided above. There may be more to this story, and that must be borne in mind.

[Guest]

I fear that I need to remove names to fit in with FR&G.

 

Nick

 

You've missed some...

 

but I pretty well guessed where this was going to be about any way.

 

To the OP - the whole point of paying for a survey and making an offer is that completion is subject to that survey showing there is nothing major wrong with the boat and if there is you can walk AND claim your deposit back (caveat - I haven't seen the pre-sales agreement of the marina concerned but this is how it normally works).

 

The survey clearly identified a justifiable reason for you to walk. You of course will have to right off the survey costs, that is what you paid for and got but I would fight 'em tooth and nail to get the deposit back.

 

Good luck.....

 

Sam caveat as Dominic - all based on what we are being told here.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Theo

[Grace and Favour]

You've missed some...

 

but I pretty well guessed where this was going to be about any way.

 

To the OP - the whole point of paying for a survey and making an offer is that completion is subject to that survey showing there is nothing major wrong with the boat and if there is you can walk AND claim your deposit back (caveat - I haven't seen the pre-sales agreement of the marina concerned but this is how it normally works).

 

The survey clearly identified a justifiable reason for you to walk. You of course will have to right off the survey costs, that is what you paid for and got but I would fight 'em tooth and nail to get the deposit back.

 

Good luck.....

 

Sam caveat as Dominic - all based on what we are being told here.

 

(But one could always suggest that maybe the boat was fitted with Wilton carpets!)