BW not allowing me to trade as a floating cafe in Hebden Bridge

[AJLintern]

There was someone on the River Cottage Veg series running a veggie cafe - seemed to do ok. You can have a very nice veggie fried breakfast: eggs, mushrooms, hash browns, beans, tomato fried bread/toast (I'm not a veggie myself, but there's more to it than nut roast and tofu!)

[Dr Bradley]

A friend has a food wagon he takes to various Shows, and he is supposed to apply to each Council for a Traders Licence. Some organisers insist on seeing that licence, some Councils come around and check..............

They ALL insist on a Hygiene Certificate.

The Traders License required is different to Registration of a food business. In the case of a boat, the Traders License is from BW. They cdannot insist on a Hygene Certificate, but they could make life difficult if you haven't one and it would be daft not to get one. All councils make regular checks on food establishments - you need to get it right, for them but more so yourself. It would be awful to be responsible for customers illnesses.

[Yellowback]

The only thing I'm struggling with, which is what some posters have also mentioned, is how she lives on the same boat that she's going to be running a food business from? I suspect this is where any obstacles from BW may arise.

 

 

Maybe she should look to getting a butty, convert butty to cafe, and live on boat.

[dor]

Maybe she should look to getting a butty, convert butty to cafe, and live on boat.

 

And sell butty chips instead of ...

[MartinClark]

And sell butty chips instead of ...

 

...instead of chip butties?

[frangar]

I have to say Im Veggie.....and there is nothing I like more than a good veggie fry up for brekkie.....and Im sure with a bit of thought this could be make great....(think Haloumi etc...trust me it works well!!)

 

Dont lose faith about the veggie part be it on land or water....good veggie eating places are ace!!

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[stickleback]

 

Finally to put the cat among the pigeons... sorry no bacon butties ... totally vegetarian (cannot justify buying dead animals to feed people with...) and will do tempe or halloumi butties or an omlette for breakfast instead... oh no you have all gone off the idea now! Maybe todays debate can be vegetarianism... only joking hee hee!

 

 

Surely a very limited market? And just at a time when progressively more people are starting to eat grain free, more meat, animal fats... The Paleo / Primal movement needs a cafe - there are far too many veggie ones already! Now, if you were doing lovely breakfasts of black pudding, scrambled egg, sausage, kidney etc - I'd be one of your first customers. If there are any mooring spaces left after they've all been taken up by traders, applying for a spot on the grounds of "well, you allowed HER one..."!

[Pirate Jane]

Hi again to everyone!

Still can't believe how many people are reading and writing on this thread! Thank you for your support.

 

I was joking when I said that the next debate would be vegetarianism! Believe me I don't wish to say to any of you meat eaters that you should stop doing what you like...eating meat! Honestly Stickleback you can eat as many black puddings and kidneys as you like... in fact you can have my share too! Apart from the sensible people who have run a catering business and realise that I will be limiting my profit I really do not want to start discussing what I have decided to sell in my cafe, that was not the point of the discussion at all.

 

If you have been keeping up with the thread, I am most grateful for all the advice and comments that I have received, it is all "food for thought"! Anyway the man from BW has just offered to meet up with me in my desired location (my home town) tomorrow (yee ha) and so I am looking forward to that. Finally to Nina, what a star you are... I have been inspired by your messages and thanks for sticking up for me . Your business sounds amazing and I like your courage to stick up for what you believe in.

 

Cheerio for now. Jane x

[Mac of Cygnet]

Are you on some mood-enhancing drug or something? I've never come across someone so upbeat in the face of negative replies! If this is what vegetarianism does for you I think I might try it. Good luck with your BW meeting.

[Pirate Jane]

Are you on some mood-enhancing drug or something? I've never come across someone so upbeat in the face of negative replies! If this is what vegetarianism does for you I think I might try it. Good luck with your BW meeting.

[mayalld]

Hi again to everyone!

Still can't believe how many people are reading and writing on this thread! Thank you for your support.

 

I was joking when I said that the next debate would be vegetarianism! Believe me I don't wish to say to any of you meat eaters that you should stop doing what you like...eating meat! Honestly Stickleback you can eat as many black puddings and kidneys as you like... in fact you can have my share too! Apart from the sensible people who have run a catering business and realise that I will be limiting my profit I really do not want to start discussing what I have decided to sell in my cafe, that was not the point of the discussion at all.

 

If you have been keeping up with the thread, I am most grateful for all the advice and comments that I have received, it is all "food for thought"! Anyway the man from BW has just offered to meet up with me in my desired location (my home town) tomorrow (yee ha) and so I am looking forward to that. Finally to Nina, what a star you are... I have been inspired by your messages and thanks for sticking up for me . Your business sounds amazing and I like your courage to stick up for what you believe in.

 

Cheerio for now. Jane x

 

I've kept quiet for a little while, after my initial input, because I really don't want to be negative.

 

Others have praised you for following your dreams, and said that nothing should stand in the way of that. However, their encouragement ignores one very important factor;

 

You following your dreams can only happen if you take more than your share of a scarce resource (namely mooring space in Hebden Bridge).

 

I know that you've said that you will move off after each day's trading, but your assesment of when the mooring will need to be vacated to make way for overnight moorers simply isn't realistic. Moving off the towpath at 5:30pm isn't early enough, and indeed unless you are away by 3pm, you will be stopping people from mooring in Hebden Bridge.

 

BW, for all their faults have to balance the conflicting demands for limited resources. If they allow you to trade from the towpath to the extent that it interferes with the availability of visitor mooring opportunities, then you can be sure that they will receive complaints from people who can't moor, and that such complaints would end up with the ombudsman, who would have to decide whether it was reasonable for BW to allow you to take up this spot.

 

In order to justify such a decision, they would have to show that the presence of your business was more beneficial to the canal and town than an extra visitor mooring space.

 

That means showing actual demand for your business, rather than people who wish you well, but may not become customers. It means showing a sound business case where you are providing for an unfulfilled demand, or can show that your presence will drive demand.

 

I'm afraid that your proposal seems to be all about providing a facility that is driven by what you want, rather than what the market wants. That is, of course fine, and if you want to open a business that attracts little custom and makes no money, it is a free country, but when you need to appropriate a scarce public resource to do so, it ceases to be fine.

[Pirate Jane]

Cheers Mac of Cygnet, you just made me smile!

 

As for my positive nature well here is the story. My life completely changed last year when my dad developed a brain tumour and I had to cancel opening my business ( the medieval campsite in France) and chose to look after my dad until he died in May. He was an inspirational character enjoying his life to the full, he kept this way in spite of everything until the very end. I couldn't open my business due to all of this and consequently lost the ability to earn a living from it so quickly sorted out selling it (at a huge loss but never mind). Because of all this we ended up living in a small caravan and with the money remaining I have bought an old narrow boat with which to start my little business. I have a wonderful husband who I am crazy about, good friends and lots of brilliant "small things" to be so very grateful for, so that is why I am so happy.

 

I realised last year that life can change so dramatically when you are least expecting it and it doesn't matter what bad things might happen to me, it's the way I deal with those bad things that counts. My new years resolution has been to make the most of every single day and not do anything that makes me feel ashamed of myself and so far on day 11 I have kept to it!

 

I welcome any negative comments because they actually challenge me more than the positive ones! Having said that the positive ones really spur me on! I really hope that my little narrow boat cafe comes into fruition because despite what some people have said about me not offering anything to boaters or the local community, I believe that I have got something to offer, and that is me! ... and of course delicious food and believe me vegetarian food can be amazing! My little narrow boat cafe will make a difference to the community because what I like to do the most is make people feel happy and everyone who comes on board my cafe will know they will get a genuinely warm welcome.

Cheers

Jane

[haggis]

Adapting a narrow boat to sit customers is not easy! Our canal society restored a 40 foot NB (I know that yours is longer but you wil presumably need living space as well as costomer space) and we had great difficulty working out how we could safely seat passengers. We had a very small galley (we only do teas and coffee on our trips) and loo at the back and we thought we had lots of space for, say 6 tables with 2 seats at each. That was until we got out the measuring tape and graph paper! we tried all sorts of combinations of tables for 4, tables for 2, a big table right up the middle but none of them provided a safe place for members of the public. In the end, we made very strong shelves which were very well supported (in case someone sat on them!) along each side and provided 12 free standing chairs. This, although not ideal works reasonably well.

Something to bear in mind when you are thinking of providing seating for your customers.

 

Haggis

[mayalld]

I welcome any negative comments because they actually challenge me more than the positive ones! Having said that the positive ones really spur me on! I really hope that my little narrow boat cafe comes into fruition because despite what some people have said about me not offering anything to boaters or the local community, I believe that I have got something to offer, and that is me! ... and of course delicious food and believe me vegetarian food can be amazing! My little narrow boat cafe will make a difference to the community because what I like to do the most is make people feel happy and everyone who comes on board my cafe will know they will get a genuinely warm welcome.

 

Jane,

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say that you wouldn't be offering anything to boaters or the community. I have to say that I'm having difficulty seeing that boaters or the community will be taking you up on what you want to offer.

 

I'm sure that your vegetarian food will be delightful, but most people are not vegitarian, and by and large whilst non-veggies might sometimes chose a vegitarian dish, they are not likely to visit an eatery where that is all that is on offer.

 

People who come on board may well find that they get a genuinely warm welcome, but I simply don't see how you are going to get them on board to discover this. What do you imagine will entice people to give you a go?

 

You have mentioned your previous business before, and of course previous business experience should equip you with a certain amount of experience. However, looking at that experience, it is fair to say that the campsite was hardly a fully fledged business. Three tents, with a gross annual revenue of €6,000 isn't even sufficient to pay yourself a poverty level income. Your previous business also had the advantage that customers would be coming specifically to spend time with you, they would be booking, and you could drive bookings by advertising. What you now propose relies pretty much entirely on impulse custom that you haven't shown that you will generate.

 

What you have set our so far shows that you WANT to do something that will benefit the local community and passing boaters, but which will very possibly act to their detriment.

 

One other point is that you mention that this is an OLD narrowboat. As you will be using it commercially, you will need a new BSC to higher standards, and you would be well advised to check what significant changes will be needed.

[Athy]

I'm a devout carnivore but I can see, as some of m'learned friends above have suggested, a way round the crank, whoops, I mean veggy, thing: don't have advertising boards on display whispering "Sorry, no meat", have them shouting "Great cakes" Lovely puds!" "Wild waffles" and the like. Accentuate the positive, as I believe somebody well-known once said.

That's if you can get your space, which I hope you will. As has been suggested above, the market for your venture may not materialise, but you deserve the chance to find out for yourself.

[Lady Muck]

The Sandwich barge that I mentioned earlier has been going at least since 2009 - just found this news report.

 

My link

 

My link

 

If I were you I'd be contacting her and see whether she is willing to share her experiences. She must've won her battles as she is still trading.

 

ETA - she is still trading but not at the original location, she cruises now and publishes a map of her travels on her website.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Lady Muck

[RLWP]

The document linked to at the bottom is interesting:

 

http://www.thecnj.com/islington/2009/073109/inews073109_03.html

 

That suggests that BW will create A catering barge spot, not YOUR catering barge spot, then periodically offer it to tender

 

Richard

[dor]

Just a point: if you are going to provide seating inside the boat, i.e. effectively be a cafe, will you have to provide toilet and hand washing facilities for customers? I seem to remember somewhere that this is a requirement for food establishments. Explaining to customers how to use a boat toilet, PO or cassette, might not be part of your plan... And you have to consider water usage and capacity.

[Midnight Rider]

Just a point: if you are going to provide seating inside the boat, i.e. effectively be a cafe, will you have to provide toilet and hand washing facilities for customers? I seem to remember somewhere that this is a requirement for food establishments. Explaining to customers how to use a boat toilet, PO or cassette, might not be part of your plan... And you have to consider water usage and capacity.

I can think of many small cafes that I have used that don't have the 'facilities'.

 

As an example, the privately run cafe at Fradley doesn't have a loo, but directs customers to the BW facilities nearby. Now I guess that these should need a BW key to get in, but they are always open.

[WotEver]

The document linked to at the bottom is interesting:

 

http://www.thecnj.com/islington/2009/073109/inews073109_03.html

 

That suggests that BW will create A catering barge spot, not YOUR catering barge spot, then periodically offer it to tender

 

Richard

But only after you've done the market research for them to prove the viability of the spot.

 

Tony

[RichardH]

Time for my twopenneth

 

I think seats inside should be avoided. There will be an inevitable slip/trip when Joe Public board/leave the boat. Unless you plan to have good public liability insurance I would avoid at all costs. If you keep people out and replicate a catering van then again it removes the expectation for toilets.

 

I don't see how you can have a semi-permanent towpath mooring without it being offered to other boaters who are prepared to pay for a permit so I think BW are being reasonable in their advice.

 

The curry boat on the L&L sadly didn't last despite the food being good.

 

With any venture, for passing trade you have to look good and be very appealing visually. For regular repeat trade you have to be simply very very good.

 

Why not try a shop in Hebden where there is much better footfall and keep your home sacred.

[Lady Muck]

I can think of many small cafes that I have used that don't have the 'facilities'.

 

As an example, the privately run cafe at Fradley doesn't have a loo, but directs customers to the BW facilities nearby. Now I guess that these should need a BW key to get in, but they are always open.

 

yes - think of all the roadside 'tea hut' type places - most of our London boat cafes aren't really cafes, more like serving hatch takeaway type things.

[Lady Muck]

I'm sure that your vegetarian food will be delightful, but most people are not vegitarian, and by and large whilst non-veggies might sometimes chose a vegitarian dish, they are not likely to visit an eatery where that is all that is on offer.

 

If we are talking Hebden Bridge then this is where it differs from most other places. I know four different people who live in Hebden, none of them know each other, they are all veggies lol, it's the yoghurt weavers capital of the north! But if she ends up having to move around, then I'd tend to agree, in Tod they'll want bacon butties and strong tea.

[Guest]

If we are talking Hebden Bridge then this is where it differs from most other places. I know four different people who live in Hebden, none of them know each other, they are all veggies lol, it's the yoghurt weavers capital of the north! But if she ends up having to move around, then I'd tend to agree, in Tod they'll want bacon butties and strong tea.

 

I dispute that - that title rightfully belongs to Saltburn-by-the-sea...

[Mac of Cygnet]

If we are talking Hebden Bridge then this is where it differs from most other places. ..... it's the yoghurt weavers capital of the north!

 

Also described in a 'Times' feature a while back as 'a drugs town with a tourist problem'. I suppose the 'herbal tea' would go down well.