Another problem!

[Lady Muck]

I've just had a request to edit the topic title? ???? I know it's ambiguous but ????

[tillergirl]

Yep, put the oil down and step away from the boat.

 

Yep I was gonna say that too! Time for a service...............?

 

 

 

[Guest]

As I have only run out of fuel once after someone helped themselves to a majority of it and the tank was clean, can someone please explain how when the tank starts to get empty you start to suck up water and crap that may be in the tank. Surly if this was up to the level of the dip tube you would be drawing it in all the time as the diesel is on top of it and it its below the dip tube how does it suddenly increase in volume to reach the dip tube when the diesel is low?

Mystified in Lowestoft

 

My understanding is that it is due to the concentration/proportion of contaminants (crud) and or water against the total volume of diesel in the tank - the more diesel the less of a concentration and less of a problem.

 

But somebody more knowledgeable may have a better answer - what does seem to be fact though that whatever the cause people who run their diesel down to this sort of level or even run out all together do seem to end up these kinds of issues along with air locks in engines that don't self bleed. Sometimes the same with cars too.

[Gazboatman]

My understanding is that it is due to the concentration/proportion of contaminants (crud) and or water against the total volume of diesel in the tank - the more diesel the less of a concentration and less of a problem.

 

But somebody more knowledgeable may have a better answer - what does seem to be fact though that whatever the cause people who run their diesel down to this sort of level or even run out all together do seem to end up these kinds of issues along with air locks in engines that don't self bleed. Sometimes the same with cars too.

Yes I have done this with a few van's I have owned and it buggered them up.

 

I was told it's something to do with the crud blocking the jets??

 

The boat I have now has an old Lister 2 cylinder aircooled. Someone told me because the engine is old and a simple 2 cylinder I shouldn't have any of these issues if I let the diesel get low. Anyone know if this is true?

[Guest]

 

I was told it's something to do with the crud blocking the jets??

 

 

That's pretty much it, and is what I fear may have happened to the OP's engine, though I hope I'm wrong or somebody can suggest summit else.

[Bob18]

How much diesel did you put in the tank?

Given many narrowboat tanks hold 50-100 litres (or more) a couple of litres isn't going to help the situation much...

 

You have changed the filters haven't you?

 

 

Lots of places it could have bunged up:

These are the easy places to check - loosen each fitting in turn, starting at the tank end - a small drip of fuel coming out indicates you are still up-stream of the problem.

Make sure that a lump of muck hasn't decided to bung up the pipe between the tank and the engine.

Now check the filters again - make sure there is fuel coming into the housings

Now make sure that fuel is getting to the injector pump(s)

You may find that several places are blocked so don't assume that clearing the first one that fails will cure your problem.

 

Now come the tricky ones - this is on the high pressure side of the pump, and diesel can be injected into you if you are not VERY VERY careful.

WITH THE ENGINE OFF loosen one of the injector pipes at its PUMP end. cover the are with a bit of cardboard or plywood, stand well back

BRIEFLY crank the engine for a couple of seconds.

Go and check the bit of ply and the pipes, any signs of diesel indicates that all is well at that point.

Re-tighten the fitting.

Repeat at the injector end of the same pipe, then each of the other injectors in turn.

 

You may find that the engine will start while doing this, in which case STOP it immediately, remove the protection and have a good look round.

Finish all the injectors.

Then try and re-start the engine, if it starts it will probably be as rough as they comes, but should gradually settle down as each injector is bled.

 

 

Many diesel engines will not "self bleed" their injectors or pump if they have run out even though they are designed to (they can't read, so...), but do need a bit of encouragement, and they may run for a short time and then stop because an air bubble has got to a critical location.

[adam1uk]

I've just had a request to edit the topic title? ???? I know it's ambiguous but ????

 

I'd guess that some people might be offended by the blasphemy.

[Pykebird]

I also had a lister sr2 and because it was impossible to dip the tank, did run out of diesel! We were lucky to break down next to some really kind guys mending their boat who sold us 20 litres of diesel( much to their amusement)!

We just threw it in the tank, engine started and off we went. Not a practice to make a habit of, have also spent days bleeding a bmc!

[steelaway]

I've just had a request to edit the topic title? ???? I know it's ambiguous but ????

 

 

 

Allah be praised?

[lewisericeric]

Not checked the filters yet, as yes I am a complete novice and have no idea about anything engine-related! Im in an area where there's no one really like boat builders/fitters/engine people (that I know of!) so I'm still trying to find the filters and looking thru the Beta manual online!

 

Oh I'm having fun! The dipstick shows about half inch of oil. Top up im guessing?

[Gazboatman]

Not checked the filters yet, as yes I am a complete novice and have no idea about anything engine-related! Im in an area where there's no one really like boat builders/fitters/engine people (that I know of!) so I'm still trying to find the filters and looking thru the Beta manual online!

 

Oh I'm having fun! The dipstick shows about half inch of oil. Top up im guessing?

There should be a couple of marks/nicks near or in the bottom of the dipstick. Your oil level wants to register somewhere inbetween.

 

Pull the dipstick out wipe clean with tissue re-dip.

 

But to be honest this doesn't sound like an oil issue. It sounds like you have sucked some crud up by letting your fuel level get too low. I had this problem with a diesel van I think I managed to sort it or make the problem a bit better by filling up with diesel and having the engine running and screwing the nuts off it for 3 or 4 mins in order to burn the crud off the jets.(don't think this is right but it did something)

 

But I wouldn't recommend doing this as the this might not be your actual problem and doing this could make things worse if it's something else.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Gazboatman

[Guest]

Not checked the filters yet, as yes I am a complete novice and have no idea about anything engine-related! Im in an area where there's no one really like boat builders/fitters/engine people (that I know of!) so I'm still trying to find the filters and looking thru the Beta manual online!

 

Oh I'm having fun! The dipstick shows about half inch of oil. Top up im guessing?

 

Dip stick will have 2 distinct marks high and low - the level should be at the top one but not below the bottom one. Also not over the top one - do not overfill it.

 

To check let the engine cool. Remove dipstick wipe with a piece of clean rag re-insert and use this reading as the level. It normally takes around half a litre to move the level from the low to the high.

 

The fact there is some showing on the dipstick is a good thing (better than not showing at all) but the level needs to be correct and you should be checking it much more often (daily if cruising more than a few hours a day at least weekly)

[Athy]

What does the dipstick tell you?

I was going to say "He tells you that his engine isn't working properly" but that would be construed as offensive, so I shan't.

Bob18, I too am a non-technical dipstick when it comes to the workings of an engine, but your instructions are a model of logic and clarity - I think that even I would stand a chance of following them!

[Lady Muck]

Allah be praised?

 

 

Nope, wrong person. I'm a Buddhist, we don't have blasphemy in Buddhism. (No do we have the concept of sin. Bwahahah). If we are offended I'll edit it.

[Semitrad]

Are there really people incapable of checking the oil level with a dipstick or is this a windup?

[LoneWolf]

Nope, wrong person. I'm a Buddhist, we don't have blasphemy in Buddhism. (No do we have the concept of sin. Bwahahah). If we are offended I'll edit it.

 

Why don't you change it to "John Cleese"

 

 

 

OP, if you're anywhere nr Nantwich i can come past tomorrow & assist

[Albion]

I was going to say "He tells you that his engine isn't working properly" but that would be construed as offensive, so I shan't.

 

It's a good job that you didn't then

Roger

[nicknorman]

As I have only run out of fuel once after someone helped themselves to a majority of it and the tank was clean, can someone please explain how when the tank starts to get empty you start to suck up water and crap that may be in the tank. Surly if this was up to the level of the dip tube you would be drawing it in all the time as the diesel is on top of it and it its below the dip tube how does it suddenly increase in volume to reach the dip tube when the diesel is low?

Mystified in Lowestoft

As Tony said, partly due to return fuel dropping into the tank near the same level as the crud. But I think it is mostly to do with the boat's motion. Ever been snorkling / scuba diving in the sea? - once you are just below the waves, you don't get chucked about by them because the sea is not really moving much. Compare that to bobbing about on the surface in breaking waves etc, you get chucked about all over the place. Same for diesel in your tank - if it is fairly full, although it sloshes around with the boat's motion, the moving diesel is mostly on the surface and the bottom is undisturbed. If the tank is nearly empty, the top is too close to the bottom and now the motion of the diesel near the surface interacts with the bottom crud and mixes it all up, then it gets sucked up into the filters and possibly the engine.

[lewisericeric]

if it's now inside my engine.....does it now mean that my engine is knackered?! Oh god please no!

 

Still trying to locate filters, my complete lack of knowledge, even using the pics and the fact its dark isn't helping me locate them!

[Gazboatman]

if it's now inside my engine.....does it now mean that my engine is knackered?! Oh god please no!

 

Still trying to locate filters, my complete lack of knowledge, even using the pics and the fact its dark isn't helping me locate them!

I don't think your engine is knackered, how long have you owned this boat?

[Bob18]

To find your filters.

Follow the pipes from your fuel tank towards the engine.

In one of the pipes, the feed from the tank, you should find one, or more, filter bowls or cartridges in the pipework, each about the size of a large mug. Depending on the exact type the body may be glass or metal, they may have a drain tap of some sort on the bottom.

If they are "glass" have a look (well that's the theory) and see if you can see any grot or an obvious water layer - they should be full of diesel, not air or water.

Obviously if they are full of air then no fuel is getting to that point in the system...

 

(Some engines have a small filter on the "lift pump", these often have a "glass" top and again should be checked.

[Chickadee]

Are you still in Worcestershire? My Dad is a boat engineer covering worcester I can give you is number if you need it.

[Jim Batty]

if it's now inside my engine.....does it now mean that my engine is knackered?! Oh god please no!

 

Still trying to locate filters, my complete lack of knowledge, even using the pics and the fact its dark isn't helping me locate them!

 

We've got a Beta 38 circa 2004. Not sure what you've got. On ours the main, disposable fuel filter is Beta part no 211-02817. It's a black, metal, cannister that is located towards the very front of the engine on the right (viewed from the stern) just beside the large alternator.

 

Put some towelling or paper towels beneath the fuel filter on the engine room floor and a plastic bag with no holes around the old fuel filter when you unscrew it -- to catch the fuel. Then quickly screw in the new one. After this you need to loosen a little nut on the centre edge of the flange of the mount just above the filter. Then work the domed pump head there until fuel starts to dribble out around the loose screw. Keep pumping until there are no tiny air bubbles at all. Then tighten the screw. Complete!

 

BTW, Oil filter for the 38hp is Beta part no 211-60390 or Crosland 2071 or Coopers Z920 for the 38hp as well.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Jim Batty

[Guest]

Are there really people incapable of checking the oil level with a dipstick or is this a windup?

 

Of course there is why wouldn't there be - just because you know how to do it perhaps.....which means everybody else should be able to...

[Nose Miner]

To find your filters.

Follow the pipes from your fuel tank towards the engine.

In one of the pipes, the feed from the tank, you should find one, or more, filter bowls or cartridges in the pipework, each about the size of a large mug. Depending on the exact type the body may be glass or metal, they may have a drain tap of some sort on the bottom.

If they are "glass" have a look (well that's the theory) and see if you can see any grot or an obvious water layer - they should be full of diesel, not air or water.

Obviously if they are full of air then no fuel is getting to that point in the system...

 

(Some engines have a small filter on the "lift pump", these often have a "glass" top and again should be checked.

If the filter is glass... well, think about replacing it with one that won't fail a BSS exam.

 

The filter should have caught any or all crud that might have been picked up, so the engine should not be affected. It's not impossible though that some water or fine particles could find their way into the injection pump or injectors. A simple test for blocked injectors is to slacken off the injector pipe and turn over the engine - if fuel comes out then it's probably not blocked - test all injectors.

 

The fuel tank pick up pipe is often located as much as an inch off the bottom of the tank, so you might have either started sucking air from the tank instead of fuel. This tends to cause the engine to rev briefly before cutting out. The sloshing motion of the fuel can mean that the engine will start sometimes and not others.

 

Symptoms of a blocked fuel filter tend to be that the engine will start, but then die as soon as the throttle is opened.

 

If you in or close to Staffordshire I might be able to assist.

 

Ian

Hope this helps.