Narrowboats at sea

[RLWP]

Less than yours. The other half is mainly wood, though the copper lined engine room would fetch a bob or two.

 

One of it's many interesting features

 

Photobucket slideshow

 

Richard

[Neil2]

Does anyone know anything about the design/spec of the Clyde "Puffers" that used to operate around the West coast of Scotland? As I understand it these were originally canal boats of restricted length (owing to the short locks on the Forth & Clyde canal) that became coastal cargo carriers. They had flat bottomed hulls, so they could beach if there was no pier/jetty, and though not narrow beam, in cross section don't look a lot different to the cross section of a NB. The west of scotland isn't noted for its flat calm seas so I'm assuming these boats were pretty safe despite their hull shape. But is it because they are wider or the way they were ballasted? Or is there something else that I'm missing?

[magpie patrick]

Does anyone know anything about the design/spec of the Clyde "Puffers" that used to operate around the West coast of Scotland? As I understand it these were originally canal boats of restricted length (owing to the short locks on the Forth & Clyde canal) that became coastal cargo carriers. They had flat bottomed hulls, so they could beach if there was no pier/jetty, and though not narrow beam, in cross section don't look a lot different to the cross section of a NB. The west of scotland isn't noted for its flat calm seas so I'm assuming these boats were pretty safe despite their hull shape. But is it because they are wider or the way they were ballasted? Or is there something else that I'm missing?

 

 

The Forth and Clyde was not designed for inland boats, although they developed once it was opened. Clyde "puffers" such as VIC32 were not designed for it, but to fit through it

[mykaskin]

No, it is down to the fact that the sea is not a flat, solid surface.

 

If you stand a round bottomed boat, with a keel, and a flat bottomed narrowboat on a concrete floor, then the keeled boat will fall over. If you put them both in the sea and they are broadsided by a 3m wave then the narrowboat falls over.

 

I'm bowing out of this one because it is obvious that I am just another of those narrowboaters that is too scared to ever go to sea, that you told us about.

 

Depends on the wave, but often the salty boat being wider and lighter rolls move than the heavily balasted narrowboat which just goes up and down on the level! However for the same distribution of ballast the sea boat should win hands down.

 

Mike

 

The Forth and Clyde was not designed for inland boats, although they developed once it was opened. Clyde "puffers" such as VIC32 were not designed for it, but to fit through it

 

All Keel are flat bottom and were apparently great at sea, many going around the coast where ever the work took them. Of course we all know about this flat bottomed ship:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Bark_Endeavour

 

Mike

[bargemast]

Boats like the VIC 32 were really seaworthy craft that traded all along the Scottish coast, and the Hebrides Islands, I don't think that you can compare those small real ships with a canal narrowboat going to sea.

 

Peter.

[mykaskin]

Boats like the VIC 32 were really seaworthy craft that traded all along the Scottish coast, and the Hebrides Islands, I don't think that you can compare those small real ships with a canal narrowboat going to sea.

 

Peter.

 

You can when you have seas this big to content with compared to the 'tiny waves' you would dare to take a narrowboat out in:

 

Image: shamelessly stolen from the interweb

 

Though I doubt that a puffer would badventurousadventerous - its all about scale.

 

Mike

Edited June 2, 2011 by mykaskin

[Laurence Hogg]

This is a most entertaining thread, all this theory, all this talk, so many opinions. How many of you have tried it for real? I have and it was a great experience, repeated many times, but as I said earlier 99.999% of narrowboats are not suitable. we have done, been there, got the souvineers and some really great memories.

[Timleech]

Boats like the VIC 32 were really seaworthy craft that traded all along the Scottish coast, and the Hebrides Islands, I don't think that you can compare those small real ships with a canal narrowboat going to sea.

 

Peter.

 

Yes basically a very small coasting barge/ship. Flattish bottom, shorter than a full length Narrow Boat, more than twice the beam, and much deeper draught & freeboard, proper side decks and bulwarks, plus a decent 'hatch' strong enough to keep seas off the cargo.

Also, not very comfortable in any sort of sea, especially when aiming for the fire with a shovel of coal .

The VIC32 has a 4-bladed propeller over 5' diameter, which certainly helps to keep things moving.

 

Tim

(former Engineer, VIC32)

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

Tim

(former Engineer, VIC32)

 

More envy

 

Richard

[carlt]

 

All Keel are flat bottom and were apparently great at sea, many going around the coast where ever the work took them. Of course we all know about this flat bottomed ship:

 

Not that much of a keel is flat bottomed...Look at those curves:

 

[howardang]

This is a most entertaining thread, all this theory, all this talk, so many opinions. How many of you have tried it for real? I have and it was a great experience, repeated many times, but as I said earlier 99.999% of narrowboats are not suitable. we have done, been there, got the souvineers and some really great memories.

Exactly ...99.999% are not suitable, and it isn't necessary to do it to know it's not a good idea, unless the boat is either built specially for the purpose, or highly modified to make it more suitable. And even then, many of the specialist craft which have been coastal have not been tested in bad weather, I suspect.

 

The stability aspects are one thing, and they can be calculated reasonably easily but watertight integrity and subdivision are another, and a narrow beamed canal boat will almost certainly be stiff and have a tendency to roll in anything other than a head sea. I am also sceptical about the construction of some inland waterways vessels and their capability of taking the constant working which will happen in a seaway of any significance. They are fine when in their usual environment - the inland waterways -but not at sea.

 

Finally, there has been a lot of talk about flat bottomed vessels. It isn't the fact that they are flat bottomed that is the problem. Most ships that ply the seas of the world have a flat bottom for a large proportion of their length.

 

Howard

[Morat]

This is a most entertaining thread, all this theory, all this talk, so many opinions. How many of you have tried it for real? I have and it was a great experience, repeated many times, but as I said earlier 99.999% of narrowboats are not suitable. we have done, been there, got the souvineers and some really great memories.

 

Does Progress have a totally flat bottom or some kind of keel?

[max campbell]

This is a most entertaining thread, all this theory, all this talk, so many opinions. How many of you have tried it for real? I have and it was a great experience, repeated many times, but as I said earlier 99.999% of narrowboats are not suitable. we have done, been there, got the souvineers and some really great memories.

Laurence. Have re-read your posts about the features built in to Progress - all of which (apart from the designed-out gunwhales, and a narrower top wouldn't be a bad thing) seem possible to retro fit, but unless I've missed it, did she have a box keel? What underwater hull shape? Sounds great.

 

 

 

Finally, there has been a lot of talk about flat bottomed vessels. It isn't the fact that they are flat bottomed that is the problem. Most ships that ply the seas of the world have a flat bottom for a large proportion of their length.

 

Howard

 

Far too much - the flatness just happens to be one point in a NB's favour - whether you like or understand the idea or not - it's their narrowness that worries me. The point is does the advantage of a flat bottom overcome the disadvantage of only being 6'10" wide. I think Laurence's experience shows that it can do - provided the washing machine is held down, etc.

[Laurence Hogg]

Does Progress have a totally flat bottom or some kind of keel?

It is a totally flat bottom. Long swim aft, ballasted well approx 12" draft fore end.

[mykaskin]

Not that much of a keel is flat bottomed...Look at those curves:

 

 

Thats about the only part that is curgorgeousrgeous ain't it! If you've seen an empty opened keel, more than 90% is probably flat, curved chines, bow chine, and stern end. I think they may have had a keel post that sat below the rest of the hull - but that was usually sat in the mud when I saw them!

 

Mike

[Timleech]

Not that much of a keel is flat bottomed...Look at those curves:

 

 

Actually not usually flat, but a very shallow vee, with rounded chine and a very small bar 'keel', maybe 3" deep. And, as can be seen from carl's 'oops' pic, a very good stern shape though a very bluff bow. They knew which end was the important one to make shapely

 

Tim

[carlt]

Thats about the only part that is curgorgeousrgeous ain't it! If you've seen an empty opened keel, more than 90% is probably flat, curved chines, bow chine, and stern end. I think they may have had a keel post that sat below the rest of the hull - but that was usually sat in the mud when I saw them!

 

Mike

Well considering that swim goes almost half way along the hull, flows into a curved chine and then into the bows, I'd say it had the edge on nearly all narrow boats.

 

Same boat, 50 years on:

[Laurence Hogg]

Laurence. Have re-read your posts about the features built in to Progress - all of which (apart from the designed-out gunwhales, and a narrower top wouldn't be a bad thing) seem possible to retro fit, but unless I've missed it, did she have a box keel? What underwater hull shape? Sounds great.

 

 

 

Far too much - the flatness just happens to be one point in a NB's favour - whether you like or understand the idea or not - it's their narrowness that worries me. The point is does the advantage of a flat bottom overcome the disadvantage of only being 6'10" wide. I think Laurence's experience shows that it can do - provided the washing machine is held down, etc.

 

"Progress" had little that could move, almost everything was fixed or bolted down and when out on wild water there were extra fastenings in place around cupbosrds etc. Chris thought the whole thing through well and it was only in 2002 that weather stopped us on our final journey which was London - Scotland - over the Caledonian and back down the East coast. We have never been out since.

[Kez]

A little late to be adding a reply onto this perhaps, but 3 times Linnet has navigated the Irish Sea in getting from the Lancaster canal (at Glasson dock on the River Lune) to the main system (at Tarleton on the River Douglas), back to the Lancaster, and finally returning to the main line. All this was of course done without any of the modern gadets and radios that boats run with today, relying purely on my father's knowledge of the waters (a captain in the merchant navy) and on one run, the local knowledge of a fishing boat.

 

 

It's worth pointing out that this was all long before the cruiser stern was removed, and on at least 1 occasion she was towing a wooden jolly boat Tishy (who's bow can just be seen in the picture below )

The trojan engine that did all this? The faithful SR2, and all of his 11 horse

 

[magnetman]

"Progress" had little that could move, almost everything was fixed or bolted down and when out on wild water there were extra fastenings in place around cupbosrds etc. Chris thought the whole thing through well and it was only in 2002 that weather stopped us on our final journey which was London - Scotland - over the Caledonian and back down the East coast. We have never been out since.

 

apologies if its been asked but what were the worst conditions Progress was ever out at sea in?

[Roger Gunkel]

apologies if its been asked but what were the worst conditions Progress was ever out at sea in?

 

A very relevant question and one that I don't think has actually come up. As Progress has been the justification for much of this thread and has 'been there and done it', it would be very useful to now what actual heavy weather conditions can be expected to be handled safely by a boat with the same sort of mods. Actual wave heights, wind strength etc as I am sure these would have been carefully documented on the many passages.

 

Roger

[Laurence Hogg]

A very relevant question and one that I don't think has actually come up. As Progress has been the justification for much of this thread and has 'been there and done it', it would be very useful to now what actual heavy weather conditions can be expected to be handled safely by a boat with the same sort of mods. Actual wave heights, wind strength etc as I am sure these would have been carefully documented on the many passages.

 

Roger

 

Worse conditions I have experienced were a force 5 in the Bristol Channel crossing from Ilfracombe to Swansea, we left in conditions which were 2/3 but it rapidly blew up, at one point this was beam on and we adjusted our course to avoid that. Part of this is shown in my film "A canal too far". Chris experienced quite bad conditions in one of his Channel crossings too about the same. Wind over tide can be nasty, we aborted temporarily a trip out of the Mersey and put in at New Brighton due to waves occuring where the boat constantly went through them. Hope that helps.

[Roger Gunkel]

Worse conditions I have experienced were a force 5 in the Bristol Channel crossing from Ilfracombe to Swansea, we left in conditions which were 2/3 but it rapidly blew up, at one point this was beam on and we adjusted our course to avoid that. Part of this is shown in my film "A canal too far". Chris experienced quite bad conditions in one of his Channel crossings too about the same. Wind over tide can be nasty, we aborted temporarily a trip out of the Mersey and put in at New Brighton due to waves occuring where the boat constantly went through them. Hope that helps.

 

Thanks for that information Laurence. Wind over tide can be very nasty giving short sharp treacherous seas. I was once caught in a fairly heavy beam sea in a small cruiser off the Kent coast, which resulted in me having to steer away from the coast into the waves to avoid being rolled. After an hour the strength had increased to 7-8 and it was only a large fishing boat intervening that enabled me to turn in her lee and head back accompanied by the fishing fleet.

 

It is useful information for those interested in narrowboats at sea, that even with the preparations and modifications to Progress, caution and wisdom ensured that voyages were always made at the lower end of the wind scale.

 

Roger

[Laurence Hogg]

A little late to be adding a reply onto this perhaps, but 3 times Linnet has navigated the Irish Sea in getting from the Lancaster canal (at Glasson dock on the River Lune) to the main system (at Tarleton on the River Douglas), back to the Lancaster, and finally returning to the main line. All this was of course done without any of the modern gadets and radios that boats run with today, relying purely on my father's knowledge of the waters (a captain in the merchant navy) and on one run, the local knowledge of a fishing boat.

 

 

It's worth pointing out that this was all long before the cruiser stern was removed, and on at least 1 occasion she was towing a wooden jolly boat Tishy (who's bow can just be seen in the picture below )

The trojan engine that did all this? The faithful SR2, and all of his 11 horse

 

 

That trip was regulary undertaken by Leeds & Liverpool short boats trading up to the Lancaster and vice versa. The route is also mentioned as being possible in Robert Aickman's book "Know your waterways"

[blackrose]

This is a most entertaining thread, all this theory, all this talk, so many opinions. How many of you have tried it for real? I have and it was a great experience, repeated many times, but as I said earlier 99.999% of narrowboats are not suitable. we have done, been there, got the souvineers and some really great memories.

 

Big whoop!

 

Many of us have been to sea in all kinds of different craft. You don't need to go to sea in a modified narrowboat to have memories.

Edited June 3, 2011 by blackrose