Narrowboats at sea

[Laurence Hogg]

One thing I havent made clear about Chris Coburn's "Progress" is that right from designing it and finding a builder, he intended to use it not only to navigate any waterway which could take a 70ft boat but also to go off the system venturing onto estuaries and tidal rivers. Thus from the outset some thinking went further than necessary with equipment and the style. Progress has no gunnel as such, all transit is through the boat or over the roof, the roof is fitted with non slip decking and there are easily used footholds either end. The extra large scuppers in the well deck are there to aid dispersal of water from waves and so on. It may look conventional but in reality the devil is in the relativly unseen detail.

[Neil2]

One thing I havent made clear about Chris Coburn's "Progress" is that right from designing it and finding a builder, he intended to use it not only to navigate any waterway which could take a 70ft boat but also to go off the system venturing onto estuaries and tidal rivers. Thus from the outset some thinking went further than necessary with equipment and the style. Progress has no gunnel as such, all transit is through the boat or over the roof, the roof is fitted with non slip decking and there are easily used footholds either end. The extra large scuppers in the well deck are there to aid dispersal of water from waves and so on. It may look conventional but in reality the devil is in the relativly unseen detail.

 

Laurence - I'm sure quite a few on the forum are intrigued by the idea of a "sea going" narrowboat, but without compromising too much on the traditional design. But the "traditional" narrowboat, which is basically a box, carries an inherent flaw in its initial stability doesn't it. Would you say the main drawback is the fact that NB is too stable in a chop ie instead of riding waves it just ploughs through, similarly waves from the side would tend to slam into the boat rather than rock it sideways? Apart from the danger of say flooding the bow and/or engine comparment, this must place a lot of stress on the hull/fittings and windows? The most uncomfortable I have ever been on a boat was on a car ferry across the North Sea in a force 8, basically because of the constant slamming of waves into the side. RoRo ferries are similarly boxy and initially stable like NB's.

A more sea friendly design would probably look something like the old Sea Otter 32 river cruiser - ie a bit like a submarine and probably not what most NB enthusiasts would want.

[nb Innisfree]

Safest way to navigate stormy seas and rogue waves is in a submarine IMO.

 

Link to rogue waves

[Laurence Hogg]

Laurence - I'm sure quite a few on the forum are intrigued by the idea of a "sea going" narrowboat, but without compromising too much on the traditional design. But the "traditional" narrowboat, which is basically a box, carries an inherent flaw in its initial stability doesn't it. Would you say the main drawback is the fact that NB is too stable in a chop ie instead of riding waves it just ploughs through, similarly waves from the side would tend to slam into the boat rather than rock it sideways? Apart from the danger of say flooding the bow and/or engine comparment, this must place a lot of stress on the hull/fittings and windows? The most uncomfortable I have ever been on a boat was on a car ferry across the North Sea in a force 8, basically because of the constant slamming of waves into the side. RoRo ferries are similarly boxy and initially stable like NB's.

A more sea friendly design would probably look something like the old Sea Otter 32 river cruiser - ie a bit like a submarine and probably not what most NB enthusiasts would want.

 

Neil,

With "Progress" the boat is running like a partially loaeded boat, it is remarkably stable. This has suprised a few people who have come along in more "suitable" boats, when they are heeling over we wern't. The boat handles like a surfaced submarine or a well laden tanker, if you look at a tankers dimensions and scale them down you get close to a narrowboat. If the engine compatment became flooded then something would have seriously failed as once the doors are secured aft, she is watertight. The fromt well deck is protected by a substantail bolt on sea deck which also covers the forward bulkhead and doors.

She does plough through waves and on the odd occasion they come at you down the roof! Waves beam on can be uncomfotable, we had this in Swansea bay, the re edited film "A canal too far!" has footage in that I left out first time around because we thought it too scary for viewers!

The car ferries as we know are top heavy, as are most conventional narrowboats, 99.999% of narrowboats reviewed in Waterways World and other magasines over the last few years are NOT suitable to do this type of passage without serious mods. The first thing that happens in rough water is that the fuel gets swilled about, we all know what that can do. "Progress" has multiple filters and two independant systems.

Stress on the boat is noticable but only in the odd creak, a well constructed narrowboat is a strong box section and compared to other larger vessels is a little "overbuilt" in plate thickness relative to its size.

Where there moments when I thought it was a crazy thing to do? Yes but when you outweigh where we went and the adventures we had, I would do it all tomorrow (if I was 15 years younger!)

One thing I can assure you of is that off the coast there are plenty of charted obstacles, its the rivers that can catch you out without any signs ......

 

The top is Constantine Weir in Ipswich, at the time unsigned and although the docks knew where we were going no one warned us!

Middle is the Norfolk Broads, we did all but one Broad in a 70ft boat, winding even in those which 35ft max length boat!!

Third is passing under the Menai Bridge a truly wonderful pice of boating.

Finally despite messing with working boats and still doing so, and past cruising inland just about everywhere, nothing compares with the journeys I made with Chris, it was real off piste boating!

Edited May 30, 2011 by Laurence Hogg

[Josher]

Spotted this in the Portishead People Web site:

 

 

The Portishead and Bristol Lifeboat was called out on Friday evening to assist a 62' long 'wide beam narrow boat' with three persons on board.

 

The narrow boat had suffered engine failure in The Shoots channel which is spanned by the second severn crossing. The narrow boat managed to get her anchor down, but was in shallow water, and would have grounded on rocks as the tide ebbed. The Portishead and Bristol Lifeboat towed the narrow boat into deeper water, but due to the weather conditions and size of the narrow boat had to wait for Barry Dock all weather Lifeboat to arrive on scene to tow the narrow boat towards Portishead marina. Once off Portishead marina Portishead Lifeboat took the tow and anchored the narrow boat in Portishead hole to await the next flood tide.

 

The Portishead Lifeboat returned at around 11PM and towed the narrow boat into the marina, by the time the lifeboat had been refuelled and washed down it was 0.130 on Saturday morning.

[mrsmelly]

Spotted this in the Portishead People Web site:

 

 

The Portishead and Bristol Lifeboat was called out on Friday evening to assist a 62' long 'wide beam narrow boat' with three persons on board.

 

The narrow boat had suffered engine failure in The Shoots channel which is spanned by the second severn crossing. The narrow boat managed to get her anchor down, but was in shallow water, and would have grounded on rocks as the tide ebbed. The Portishead and Bristol Lifeboat towed the narrow boat into deeper water, but due to the weather conditions and size of the narrow boat had to wait for Barry Dock all weather Lifeboat to arrive on scene to tow the narrow boat towards Portishead marina. Once off Portishead marina Portishead Lifeboat took the tow and anchored the narrow boat in Portishead hole to await the next flood tide.

 

The Portishead Lifeboat returned at around 11PM and towed the narrow boat into the marina, by the time the lifeboat had been refuelled and washed down it was 0.130 on Saturday morning.

 

 

As they say in one particular Religion " Here endeth the lesson "

[Morat]

I have to admit that I find the whole subject fascinating and take my hat off to Laurence for building Progress.

 

What was the reason for the ommission of the gunnel? Is it a hazard to the boat or just useless because you wouldn't use it?

[Neil2]

The boat on the Severn is a cruiser stern - doesn't even have dodgers fitted so the engine is very exposed. I don't know if that was the problem. It doesn't take much thinking about to conclude that cruisers are not suitable for sea passages without substantial measures to stop water entering the engine compartment. A semi trad would be OK I guess if you could secure the stern doors but a trad is better still.

 

I remember years ago meeting a NB on the Bure, Norfolk Broads. It was very windy and it looked quite alarming the way the water was being washed over the stern. The low bridges wouldn't be a problem though.

 

Reading Laurence's account, and if you look at the adventures of the Tuesday Night Club also, you end up concluding there is nothing inherently wrong with taking a NB to sea, provided it was designed for the job and had all the necessary precautions - I wouldn't have thought building from scratch would cost an awful lot more than a conventional NB. These discussions have cropped up on other forums & I reckon there's significant interest in a narrow beam craft that can safely be taken to sea.

 

BTW thousands of boats get into difficulties every year and have to call out the RNLI - but a bit like the "man bites dog" story, when it's a NB it's seen as newsworthy.

It's also worth bearing in mind that by far the most common reason for calling out the lifeboat is engine failure. It follows that if you make sure you engine & fuel system is in tip top condition you are unlikely to have real problems. (I've read several accounts of experienced sailors coming to grief by simply running out of fuel.)

 

Maybe some of you will have heard of Roger Taylor. Roger does astonishing ocean crossing voyages in a little 21' bilge keel yacht that he picked up for a couple of thousand quid. But with some sensible, well thought out modifications his little ship is safer at sea than some costing a hundred times more. Moreover Roger won't be calling out the sea rescue services as he doesn't have any means of doing it. Some might call him reckless, but when you read his accounts it all makes very good sense. On the face of it someone with a death wish actually has it all sussed.

 

By the same token you could say someone going to sea in a NB might be safer than a proper sea vessel because they would have to seriously research and consider all the possibilities of things going wrong - which is basically what SOLAS (Safety of Lives at Sea) is, but if the stats are to be believed, a lot of folk don't treat it with respect.

 

 

 

Side decks on a NB are a bit of a nonsense aren't they?? Rarely wide enough to be of any practical use they compromise internal space and maybe weaken the structure?? I suppose the history is when they made cruising NB's by plonking a wood/GRP cabin on top of a steel hull perhaps it made some sort of sense to leave a narrow side deck?

[Lee J]

I would think that the biggest obstacle to a sea passage to Chichester by narrow boat would be the time factor. It's a long way around the coast and you'd be very lucky indeed to have enough good weather to get you there in one Summer. Having said that, I wouldn't discourage anyone contemplating such an adventure because I think it would be a fantastic thing to do, on a level with climbing Mount Everest,around the World single handed sailing etc.

 

It would be a very boring World if nobody ever did anything because of an ellement of risk.

 

Keith

 

It's about 24hrs at 6kts from Hoo (or Ramsgate) to Brighton, Chichester is I'm guessing about another 7hrs from Brighton

 

In terms of time a narrowboat could easily do it. The main problem in any vessel is the lack of safe ports between Folkestone and Brighton that have access at all tidal states.

 

Mr. Hogg has provided us with some great images of Progress battling the high seas, I would suggest that these are relatively calm waters in comparison to what can reasonable expected on the journey, there will be several tides to contend with so "wind over tide" conditions are likely to occur at some points in the journey. I would suggest that even the wake from the Dover ferries would create much bigger seas than the ones in the "Progress" pics.

 

People have taken NB's to sea and got away with it, I met a bloke once that had rowed a bathtub across the channel, and I've even read about people swimming it. It's fine as long as the sea behaves like a canal, the boat will be just fine if that happens. If there is a breeze, and the sea behaves like the sea, that's when you'll have a problem.

 

If you want to go to sea, get a sea boat! or even a cheap 10kt estuary cruiser.

 

Lee

[grunders]

<snipped>

 

Side decks on a NB are a bit of a nonsense aren't they?? Rarely wide enough to be of any practical use they compromise internal space and maybe weaken the structure?? I suppose the history is when they made cruising NB's by plonking a wood/GRP cabin on top of a steel hull perhaps it made some sort of sense to leave a narrow side deck?

 

Our gunwales see quite a lot of use as they are the only route (apart from the roof) to the steerer's position from the bow (or vice versa). Also can be used for cleaning windows/side of boat (giving somewhere to stand). I also use them when pushing the boat out from a bank - hands on handrails, one foot on gunwale, other foot pushing - this would be much less convenient without gunwales.

 

Admittedly, if you are looking to maximise internal space, have minimal gunwales or none at all.

[Morat]

But why doesn't Progress have gunwales? Do they detract from seaworthiness or was there another factor in the decision?

Edited May 31, 2011 by Morat

[blackrose]

Neil,

With "Progress" the boat is running like a partially loaeded boat, it is remarkably stable. This has suprised a few people who have come along in more "suitable" boats, when they are heeling over we wern't. The boat handles like a surfaced submarine or a well laden tanker, if you look at a tankers dimensions and scale them down you get close to a narrowboat. If the engine compatment became flooded then something would have seriously failed as once the doors are secured aft, she is watertight. The fromt well deck is protected by a substantail bolt on sea deck which also covers the forward bulkhead and doors.

She does plough through waves and on the odd occasion they come at you down the roof! Waves beam on can be uncomfotable, we had this in Swansea bay, the re edited film "A canal too far!" has footage in that I left out first time around because we thought it too scary for viewers!

Those windows don't look very seaworthy.

Edited May 31, 2011 by blackrose

[ymu]

Well, d'oh! How could the guy have designed the whole boat to perform miracles at sea, and forgotten the windows.

 

Oh well. I guess he'll sink any time now. It's clearly all down to luck ...

 

[mrsmelly]

It's about 24hrs at 6kts from Hoo (or Ramsgate) to Brighton, Chichester is I'm guessing about another 7hrs from Brighton

 

 

Mr. Hogg has provided us with some great images of Progress battling the high seas, I would suggest that these are relatively calm waters in comparison to what can reasonable expected on the journey

 

If you want to go to sea, get a sea boat! or even a cheap 10kt estuary cruiser.

 

Lee

 

Believe me the sea portrayed on thos images is very very very slight I have been out there on seas that inland only boaters could not imagine in their worst nightmares. The original post was not realy asking about taking a specialy built narrowboat to sea, progress even tho I would not go to sea on it I have too much respect for the RNLI, was specialy built/modified to venture out there. Your everday narrowboat be it Mr Hudson, Mr colecraft, Mr Reeves or whoever is simply NOT designed or built for sea going voyages they are CAT D only. That simply put means horses for courses is why we have SEA going boats and bath tubs known as narrowboats, if you want to go to sea get the former not the latter

[Gunwaler]

Those windows don't look very seaworthy.

 

Call them waves?

 

Found this on YouTube.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g6GVVjxZCg

[carlt]

Call them waves?

 

Found this on YouTube.

No radio, either

[Laurence Hogg]

[

 

 

Does anyone read the posts properly??

Quote " 99.999% of narrowboats reviewed in Waterways World and other magasines over the last few years are NOT suitable to do this type of passage without serious mods."

 

quote name=Morat' timestamp='1306840794' post='698120]

I have to admit that I find the whole subject fascinating and take my hat off to Laurence for building Progress.

 

What was the reason for the ommission of the gunnel? Is it a hazard to the boat or just useless because you wouldn't use it?

 

Hi, I DIDNT BUILD PROGRESS, I worked out most of the routes and helped crew. Its is Chris Coburn's boat, built to his spec by Albert Watson on the Macclesfield. The gunnels were minimal to allow more inner space and the intention was to use the roof for transit fore and aft. The windows and "off the shelf" units and can withstand quite some force, however I would agree that they are the most vunerable part of the boat, saying that if one went you would be already in a sea you couldnt cope with and would have probably launched the liferaft.

 

Well, d'oh! How could the guy have designed the whole boat to perform miracles at sea, and forgotten the windows.

 

Oh well. I guess he'll sink any time now. It's clearly all down to luck ...

 

 

He didnt forget the windows, think before writing! They are not "off the shelf" windows. Would you question the windows used in say a trawler or a RNLI craft?

Edited May 31, 2011 by Laurence Hogg

[blackrose]

Well, d'oh! How could the guy have designed the whole boat to perform miracles at sea, and forgotten the windows.

 

Oh well. I guess he'll sink any time now. It's clearly all down to luck ...

 

 

Who said anything about luck? Those windows don't look seaworthy - unless they've been specially made. If not he can get away with it as long as he's in calm seas and no waves hit the windows.

Edited May 31, 2011 by blackrose

[RLWP]

What's that word? Irony, wit, sarcasm? One of them wasn't it. Ymu's post I mean

 

Richard

[Laurence Hogg]

Who said anything about luck? Those windows don't look seaworthy - unless they've been specially made. If not he can get away with it as long as he's in calm seas and no waves hit the windows.

Please try reading the posts, the windows arent "off the shelf". Would you question windows in a ferry, a trawler or even a RNLI Lifeboat?? We have friends in the RNLI who came out to see us in the Menai Straits and who took over steering Progress for the experience and left very impressed!

Edited May 31, 2011 by Laurence Hogg

[ymu]

 

 

He didnt forget the windows, think before writing! They are not "off the shelf" windows. Would you question the windows used in say a trawler or a RNLI craft?

Sarcasm detector on the blink?

[RLWP]

See. Sarcasm, that one, like what I said

 

Richard

[Morat]

The picture of Progress beached on the weir shows some impressive rigidity in the hull....

 

(but I bet it was a bit embarassing overall )

Edited June 1, 2011 by Morat

[Lee J]

Is the OP building a boat that is designed to take a slight sea like Progress is, or is it just a normal, everyday cat D narrowboat. All this talk of Progress, whilst fascinating, is not relavent to the original question.

 

I do wonder if even Chris would contemplate taking Progress on a tweny-four hour sea passage. I suspect he has more intelligence than that.

 

A narrowboat on the Chichester is just going to have to get there by road I suspect.

 

Lee

[Laurence Hogg]

Is the OP building a boat that is designed to take a slight sea like Progress is, or is it just a normal, everyday cat D narrowboat. All this talk of Progress, whilst fascinating, is not relavent to the original question.

 

I do wonder if even Chris would contemplate taking Progress on a tweny-four hour sea passage. I suspect he has more intelligence than that.

 

A narrowboat on the Chichester is just going to have to get there by road I suspect.

 

Lee

s

Another one who doesnt read the posts properly. We have been at sea well over 24 hours on many occasions, ie out to the Wash, dry out and round to Gt Yarmouth!