Propellers and Liverpool Boats

[J R]

Hi

 

Also, the four bolts in his coupling were continually having to be re-tightened.

I eventually found that his engine had dropped on the engine mountings. Its seems its a common problem with Isuzu engines because the upward ajusting nut is not a locking nut and can easily come loose.

 

 

Alex

 

This is not a common problem with Isuzus, which ever shell they are installed correctly in. The engines come with ani vibration mounts and when correctly installed will operate properly. Have come accross many Isuzu installions that have been literally thrashed over the years and they have never parted company with their mountings. The use of a flexible coupling between the gearbox and the stern gear is beneficial because it reduces hull born noise/vibration and negates any misalignment of the engine assembly and the stern gear. Any misalignment will cause additional vibration and stress and may be the cause of the shearing of bolts etc. On my Isuzu, not a Liverpool boat, I check the mounting bolts as a matter of routine about twice a year; never had a problem. Know a number of fellow boaters who have Liverpool boats of varying ages (boats not the owners) who are pleased with their boats and have had very few niggles to date.

[steelaway]

This is not a common problem with Isuzus, which ever shell they are installed correctly in. The engines come with ani vibration mounts and when correctly installed will operate properly. Have come accross many Isuzu installions that have been literally thrashed over the years and they have never parted company with their mountings. The use of a flexible coupling between the gearbox and the stern gear is beneficial because it reduces hull born noise/vibration and negates any misalignment of the engine assembly and the stern gear. Any misalignment will cause additional vibration and stress and may be the cause of the shearing of bolts etc. On my Isuzu, not a Liverpool boat, I check the mounting bolts as a matter of routine about twice a year; never had a problem. Know a number of fellow boaters who have Liverpool boats of varying ages (boats not the owners) who are pleased with their boats and have had very few niggles to date.

 

 

Hi

 

I know of at least 3 other boats that suffered the same problem, some LB's, some not

Its been mentioned on here that Vetus do not recommend flexible couplings with their wet stern gland, maybe thats the reason.

The mounting dont fail, its the nut under the engine beds, that although should be locked against the upper one, do come loose and the engine drops down with them.

The top nuts are nylock and never move. If these bottom nuts were nylock I'm sure it wouldn't happen.

My old boat was a LB and I loved it - plus I never had a problem with the engine mounting.

 

Alex

[sam pig]

Not a Liverpool boat issue but 2-3 winters ago, we lost ours at Red Bull Basin Area (entering the lock right outside the pub)..

 

After a quick thinking couple of hours, scurrying around and phone calls, we moored outside the BW building and then the next day pulled the boat by the ropes round to Tony Perry's Boat Yard at the start of the Macc and kind of behind the Red Bull pub albeit it took considerably longer to tow the boat there than it did for me to walk there!..

 

We got a tow for the last half mile or so but by the time we got to the yard, I was Donald Ducked...

 

However, something good out of something bad, we got some other bits done at the same time, blacking was due etc and then I got a phone call from Tony to tell me that the lost prop was sat on the skeg! Unreal, and the fact that he rang me and saved me over 250 quid restored my faith in humanity..

 

Someone did tell me that the Yard Tony has was where they built the original Piper boats so our boat also had a spiritual journey home..

 

If anyone knows Tony, please tell him I still share the tale and tell everyone what a top job he did..

 

It was also the first and only time I have fallen completely into the canal as I slipped off the Gunwahle trying to pole our powerless craft backwards into the slip area...Feck it was cold..

 

In a really weird way, one of my fondest memories in the five years of boat ownership..

Edited January 11, 2011 by sam pig

[steelaway]

Not a Liverpool boat issue but 2-3 winters ago, we lost ours at Red Bull Basin Area (entering the lock right outside the pub)..

 

After a quick thinking couple of hours, scurrying around and phone calls, we moored outside the BW building and then the next day pulled the boat by the ropes round to Tony Perry's Boat Yard at the start of the Macc and kind of behind the Red Bull pub albeit it took considerably longer to tow the boat there than it did for me to walk there!..

 

We got a tow for the last half mile or so but by the time we got to the yard, I was Donald Ducked...

 

However, something good out of something bad, we got some other bits done at the same time, blacking was due etc and then I got a phone call from Tony to tell me that the lost prop was sat on the skeg! Unreal, and the fact that he rang me and saved me over 250 quid restored my faith in humanity..

 

Someone did tell me that the Yard Tony has was where they built the original Piper boats so our boat also had a spiritual journey home..

 

If anyone knows Tony, please tell him I still share the tale and tell everyone what a top job he did..

 

It was also the first and only time I have fallen completely into the canal as I slipped off the Gunwahle trying to pole our powerless craft backwards into the slip area...Feck it was cold..

 

In a really weird way, one of my fondest memories in the five years of boat ownership..

 

 

 

 

Bloody ell - I would have had a go on the lottery that week.

 

Alex

[Prof]

We have a 2004 Liverpool Boat and two years ago when we were moored at the Anchor in Wire Piddle, I checked the weed hatch and was surprised to see a nice shiny thread behind the prop!! NO NUT!!!

 

Long story short, Liverpool Boats had ORIGINALLY fitted an ordinary nut on the prop shaft and as there is no split pin hole, no split pin!

I had to go down to Wargrave on Thames to the Vetus dealer to get the correct nut/anode/ locking tab and fit it through the weed hatch - GREAT fun!!

The nut is round with two flats on to take a spanner for tightening. There is a locking tab that fits between the prop and the nut, with an insert that fits into the keyway, and when the nut is TIGHT you bend the outer part of the tab over one of the flats of the nut.

You then screw the anode onto the end of the shaft using the hexagon (allen) screw provided.

 

All good fun through the weed hatch!!!

 

Have had no problem since then but DID check and re-tightn the nut wnen in the drydock for blacking.

[Timleech]

 

 

Long story short, Liverpool Boats had ORIGINALLY fitted an ordinary nut on the prop shaft and as there is no split pin hole, no split pin!

I had to go down to Wargrave on Thames to the Vetus dealer to get the correct nut/anode/ locking tab and fit it through the weed hatch - GREAT fun!!

The nut is round with two flats on to take a spanner for tightening. There is a locking tab that fits between the prop and the nut, with an insert that fits into the keyway, and when the nut is TIGHT you bend the outer part of the tab over one of the flats of the nut.

You then screw the anode onto the end of the shaft using the hexagon (allen) screw provided.

 

 

 

Surely if a Vetus nut with locking tab had come off, you would see the same?

Actually in a past life employed to work on mostly ex-working boats, we didn't routinely fit split pins BUT the props were usually fitted warm and the nuts were done up properly tight, not the sort of thing which could be done through a weed hatch (if there was one, which there usually wasn't). Never lost a prop, or had one come loose.

 

Tim

[Tam & Di]

 

All good fun through the weed hatch!!!

 

Have had no problem since then but DID check and re-tightn the nut wnen in the drydock for blacking.

 

I'm horrified by the quality of workmanship pointed up by this thread. The potential for disaster if a prop fell off a boat for instance coming onto the Thames tideway at Limehouse does not bear thinking about. As Tim says, a properly fitted prop just does not fall off. A loose engine might bugger the shaft and stern tube, but even there the prop should stick tight. As for refitting the prop in the water via a weedhatch, why not get into the water and put a 3 foot pair of stilsons on it?

[Speedwheel]

Surely if a Vetus nut with locking tab had come off, you would see the same?

Actually in a past life employed to work on mostly ex-working boats, we didn't routinely fit split pins BUT the props were usually fitted warm and the nuts were done up properly tight, not the sort of thing which could be done through a weed hatch (if there was one, which there usually wasn't). Never lost a prop, or had one come loose.

 

Tim

 

What sort of temp do you need to get it to Tim? Last time I fitted a prop I did this but was not really sure what I was doing. I was concerned that either I would heat it up to much and damage it and/or when it contracted it would become to tight and break/split.

[Timleech]

What sort of temp do you need to get it to Tim? Last time I fitted a prop I did this but was not really sure what I was doing. I was concerned that either I would heat it up to much and damage it and/or when it contracted it would become to tight and break/split.

 

Not so hot you can't touch it, but not far off. The heat itself will do no harm (on an ordinary bronze prop). The only one I've seen split was on a high key, so the contraction forces weren't distributed around the taper.

 

First time I was sent to remove a prop, as an innocent youth, I was told to soak some oakum in diesel, wrap it around the prop and set fire to it. When it's burned away, knock the prop off the taper. Worked a treat To refit, reverse the heating process then screw the nut up tight. Saved messing around with blowlamps etc!

 

Tim

[Canalwatcher]

We have a 2004 Liverpool Boat and two years ago when we were moored at the Anchor in Wire Piddle, I checked the weed hatch and was surprised to see a nice shiny thread behind the prop!! NO NUT!!!

 

Long story short, Liverpool Boats had ORIGINALLY fitted an ordinary nut on the prop shaft and as there is no split pin hole, no split pin!

I had to go down to Wargrave on Thames to the Vetus dealer to get the correct nut/anode/ locking tab and fit it through the weed hatch - GREAT fun!!

The nut is round with two flats on to take a spanner for tightening. There is a locking tab that fits between the prop and the nut, with an insert that fits into the keyway, and when the nut is TIGHT you bend the outer part of the tab over one of the flats of the nut.

You then screw the anode onto the end of the shaft using the hexagon (allen) screw provided.

 

All good fun through the weed hatch!!!

 

Have had no problem since then but DID check and re-tightn the nut wnen in the drydock for blacking.

 

Couple of pics of the Vetus tab washer arrangement, taken when Zodiak (Aqualine Manhattan) out of water for blacking

 

 

 

 

Mick

[Speedwheel]

Not so hot you can't touch it, but not far off. The heat itself will do no harm (on an ordinary bronze prop). The only one I've seen split was on a high key, so the contraction forces weren't distributed around the taper.

 

First time I was sent to remove a prop, as an innocent youth, I was told to soak some oakum in diesel, wrap it around the prop and set fire to it. When it's burned away, knock the prop off the taper. Worked a treat To refit, reverse the heating process then screw the nut up tight. Saved messing around with blowlamps etc!

 

Tim

 

Thanks Tim. Nice tip!

[Prof]

Surely if a Vetus nut with locking tab had come off, you would see the same?

Actually in a past life employed to work on mostly ex-working boats, we didn't routinely fit split pins BUT the props were usually fitted warm and the nuts were done up properly tight, not the sort of thing which could be done through a weed hatch (if there was one, which there usually wasn't). Never lost a prop, or had one come loose.

 

Tim

 

Yes BUT the original nut WAS a hexagonal nut NOT a Vetus style unit, until the loss I had not realised that it was incorrect.

 

I'm horrified by the quality of workmanship pointed up by this thread. The potential for disaster if a prop fell off a boat for instance coming onto the Thames tideway at Limehouse does not bear thinking about. As Tim says, a properly fitted prop just does not fall off. A loose engine might bugger the shaft and stern tube, but even there the prop should stick tight. As for refitting the prop in the water via a weedhatch, why not get into the water and put a 3 foot pair of stilsons on it?

 

I DID put a LARGE spanner on the nut, jammed it up against the side of the weed hatch then used a VERY long bar to turn the propshaft to tighten the nut before locking with the lock washer.

[ditchcrawler]

, why not get into the water and put a 3 foot pair of stilsons on it?

I think we had a thread about this some time back

[Strads]

Sounds like technology is more complex with vetus than a standrad type of do it up tight and then tighten until you get the split pin in !

[Chris-B]

Sounds like technology is more complex with vetus than a standrad type of do it up tight and then tighten until you get the split pin in !

 

The vetus system is in fact very good PROVIDING that the installer remembers to go round and re check the tightness of the nut about 1 hour after torquing initially

and the tab washer is bent over !

neither of which I suspect had been done in this case

 

Yes a split pin system is "easier" but as with all things there are developments and some people think outside the box, what however I do not understand is their reasoning for fitting a water lubricated stern gear in a canal boat where the environment leads to abrasive material in suspension which could possibly cause wear

JMO

 

Chris

[RLWP]

I think we had a thread about this some time back

 

Did we?

 

 

Richard

[blackrose]

Yes a split pin system is "easier" but as with all things there are developments and some people think outside the box, what however I do not understand is their reasoning for fitting a water lubricated stern gear in a canal boat where the environment leads to abrasive material in suspension which could possibly cause wear

JMO

 

Chris

 

Wouldn't abrasive materials in suspension enter a conventional greasy stern gland too? Most of them drip after all. It might even be the case that the presence of grease causes those abrasive particles to stick in the gland, whereas with the water lubricated gland they just get washed through? Just a thought.

Edited January 14, 2011 by blackrose

[alan_fincher]

I think we had a thread about this some time back

 

Did we?

 

 

Richard

 

Not sure there will be a thread on it much longer, if you are going to keep doing that!

[Barry]

Wouldn't abrasive materials in suspension enter a conventional greasy stern gland too? Most of them drip after all. It might even be the case that the presence of grease causes those abrasive particles to stick in the gland, whereas with the water lubricated gland they just get washed through? Just a thought.

 

A seal with enough clearance to wash grit through would leak water like there was no tomorrow I reckon

[Radiomariner]

I am curious to know how to hammer the tab washer against the flats through the weed hatch?

[Tony Brooks]

I am curious to know how to hammer the tab washer against the flats through the weed hatch?

 

 

I would use a long drift (Screwdriver!!!) so the hammer was in the air, but then mine's a cruiser stern with an infinite clearance above the weed-hatch.

 

This thread has done nothing but reinforce my belief that Vetus simply do not understand the inland market.

[Doorman]

I was rather put off Python drives, as the spaced one fitted to a mate's barge seemed rather weedy, with the thrust bearing getting rather hot...like too hot to touch!...the supplier said this was "normal"! I do not like the idea of Aquadrives and Python drives, as there is no "give" or sound decoupling with solid CVJ's. With these drives all the initial take up torque is taken by flexi elements of the drive plate.

 

I would prefer the Aquadrive coupling to the Centreflex option and have not yet encountered the 'too hot to touch' effect that you have.

 

The Aquadrive coupling certainly accommodates the erratic movement that a diesel engine creates, especially at tick over speeds. As far as I know, the Centraflex does not allow for

parallel or angular misalignment, whereas the Aquadrive does. Also, the thrust bearing accepts the axial thrusts created by the force of the propeller, rather than the output shaft bearings on the gearbox.

 

I am quite amazed at the primitive drive arrangements on some narrow boats. To expect an engine and gearbox that are mounted on rubber mounts, to remain aligned with a fixed propeller shaft is beyond the call. We had a boat with a Vetus engine that was mounted upon hydraulic rubber mounts. These 'soft' mounts allowed the engine to move quite freely on tick over and you could see the engine surge forward and backward when the drive was engaged.

 

Because the previous owner had allowed diesel spillage to contaminate the rubber boot on the forward engine mount, this burst, causing the engine to tilt out of alignment, with the knock on effect of wearing the prop shaft and cutlass bearing prematurely. That boat had a Centreflex coupling installed.

 

Mike

[Ark Right]

Did we?

 

 

Richard

Fairly disgusted at this photo, dammit have you never heard of a ring spanner ?

 

I would prefer the Aquadrive coupling to the Centreflex option and have not yet encountered the 'too hot to touch' effect that you have.

 

The Aquadrive coupling certainly accommodates the erratic movement that a diesel engine creates, especially at tick over speeds. As far as I know, the Centraflex does not allow for

parallel or angular misalignment, whereas the Aquadrive does. Also, the thrust bearing accepts the axial thrusts created by the force of the propeller, rather than the output shaft bearings on the gearbox.

 

I am quite amazed at the primitive drive arrangements on some narrow boats. To expect an engine and gearbox that are mounted on rubber mounts, to remain aligned with a fixed propeller shaft is beyond the call. We had a boat with a Vetus engine that was mounted upon hydraulic rubber mounts. These 'soft' mounts allowed the engine to move quite freely on tick over and you could see the engine surge forward and backward when the drive was engaged.

 

Because the previous owner had allowed diesel spillage to contaminate the rubber boot on the forward engine mount, this burst, causing the engine to tilt out of alignment, with the knock on effect of wearing the prop shaft and cutlass bearing prematurely. That boat had a Centreflex coupling installed.

 

Mike

Off Topic

Nice engine colour, thought they only do red and green ?

[Timleech]

Fairly disgusted at this photo, dammit have you never heard of a ring spanner ?

 

 

 

Will your ring spanner do a better job? Ignoring the stillson tooth marks on the nut, which really don't matter in the slightest.

 

Tim

 

Edit to add that ring spanners, once you get to the bigger sizes, tend not to be long enough to apply full tightening torque and they are difficult to extend unless you saw them in half. I've no doubt that Richard's photo is exaggerated for effect, but a decent length of spanner is needed to get the nut properly tight.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Timleech

[Neil TNC]

I would prefer the Aquadrive coupling to the Centreflex option and have not yet encountered the 'too hot to touch' effect that you have.

 

The Aquadrive coupling certainly accommodates the erratic movement that a diesel engine creates, especially at tick over speeds. As far as I know, the Centraflex does not allow for

parallel or angular misalignment, whereas the Aquadrive does. Also, the thrust bearing accepts the axial thrusts created by the force of the propeller, rather than the output shaft bearings on the gearbox.

 

 

You are think of the standard Centraflex M coupling.

 

I was talking about the Centaflex AGM

This does have a trust bearing (massive in the case of the one speced for my barge) and can accomadate the same parallel or angular misalignment that a Python of Aquadrive does. They are also quite happy being set up perfectly in line.