Red Diesel to go?

[nb Innisfree]

If I am reading this correctly, Red diesel (Gas Oil) will no longer be sold in Boatyards but it will still be available for Agricultural usage. If that is the case, what is there to stop someone who is worried about the new (dyed white) Red diesel, purchasing their fuel in cans from an Agricultural supplier and sending a tax return to HMRC to pay the duty due on the fuel.

 

Reading the Government document, I understand that it will only be illegal to sell the new red diesel for Inland Waterway boats, or will the Government also be passing legislation making it illegal to use Gas Oil in boats?

 

If ULSD (ultra low sulphur diesel) is the only fuel being produced by oil companies then farmers will be using that, in other words all 35 sec fuel oil will be ULSD and eventually will be SFD (sulphur free diesel)

Edited September 29, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[Ray T]

I think for people with modern engines what you say will be true. I am not expecting issues in my Beta engine.

 

 

Sorry to be a numpty but from what date is a "modern" engine.

 

I have a Lister Petter LPWS3 of 1998 vintage, is this a "modern" engine?

 

Compared to a Bolinder, yes but what about comparison to a recent Beta or a Canal Star?

Edited September 29, 2010 by Ray T

[churchward]

Sorry to be a numpty but from what date is a "modern" engine.

 

I have a Lister Petter LPWS3 of 1998 vintage, is this a "modern" engine?

 

Compared to a Bolinder, yes but what about comparison to a recent Beta or a Canal Star?

Well, my Beta is from 1995.

 

By modern I mean the design rather than actual age of an individual engine. Generally speaking I would put all/most of the higher RPM van/truck/off highway engines in this category even the somewhat more "classic" BMC 1.5 or 1.8 although designed before ULSD was thought of.

[ditchcrawler]

If I am reading this correctly, Red diesel (Gas Oil) will no longer be sold in Boatyards but it will still be available for Agricultural usage. If that is the case, what is there to stop someone who is worried about the new (dyed white) Red diesel, purchasing their fuel in cans from an Agricultural supplier and sending a tax return to HMRC to pay the duty due on the fuel.

 

Reading the Government document, I understand that it will only be illegal to sell the new red diesel for Inland Waterway boats, or will the Government also be passing legislation making it illegal to use Gas Oil in boats?

In that case why tell HMRC that some one is illegally selling you red for a boat.

[WJM]

Modern engines are those where you turn a key and drive off. Vintage engines are the ones where you faff around for half an hour before you go anywhere! :-)

[carlt]

In that case why tell HMRC that some one is illegally selling you red for a boat.

Because they're breaking the law?

[Chertsey]

Wasn't the point that you don't tell the retailer what you're going to use it for, so they're not breaking the law. However, to be virtuous you tell HRMC and pay the duty - in doing so you incidentally inform them that the retailer has sold it to you, hence getting them into trouble when they sold it to you in all innocence. The logic of which is don't tell HRMC....

[luckyjack]

Just ask any good dutch boatman why he has seprate tanks for heating and propulshion ? and what he thinks of low sulphur diesel fuel ?

the dutch are rightly considered the cream of profesional boatmen weather inland or deepsea if they have grave conserns about low sulphur fuel there is bound to be a reasone for it.

[bottle]

Just to add a another bit of info, the 5% is to rise to 7%.

[alan_fincher]

Just to add a another bit of info, the 5% is to rise to 7%.

You old bundle of joy, you!

[bottle]

Less of the 'bundle of joy' if you don't mind

[DandV]

If some engines require a certain amount of sulphur then surely an additive could solve that the same as an additive was required for some cars that were not compatible with unleaded petrol.

I share the concern that biodiesel being much more hydroscopic is a significant potential problem. Diesel bug requires both fuel and water. All diesel is hydroscopic to a degree, but when there is limited water absorption bug growth is largely confined to the water fuel interface. However if more water is dispersed throughout the fuel there is more interface. Another potential problem I see is this dispersed water reacting with some of the residual sulphur producing acid and with the acids produced by any bug cultivation these will be be dispersed throughout the fuel causing potential problems to any alloy and brass components on the fuel system. Because of the especially intermittent nature of recreational boating these problems will be much more pronounced then in most other diesel fuel applications. Another potential problem in biodiesel is its differing hydrocarbon makeup may have it including a higher percentage of organic compounds that are less compatible with the rubber compounds used in hoses and seals. All good fun but I can see the need for greater fuel housekeeping and better fuel filtration.

Edited September 30, 2010 by DandV

[Machpoint005]

Yes, I do appreciate that they are separate issues. I had luckyjacks comment re seals in mind when posting.

 

Regarding water absorbtion, my guess (and it is only that!) is that presumably with 5% bio-diesel content the new fuel will at worst absorb only 5% more water, which I personally consider a minor increase, and like other poster's above I don't see why the current anti-water/anti-diesel bug additives won't still do their job.

 

I am entirely open minded to any evidence based arguments and will be watching developments with interest with the rest of us.

 

Callum

A voice of sanity! I'd agree that a slight increase in the tendency for 7% of the fuel to absorb more water (than ornery diesel does already) is pretty insignificant compared with the problems caused by a less-than-full tank of whatever. Tank condensation is the main problem, not hygroscopic fuel.

[nb Innisfree]

A voice of sanity! I'd agree that a slight increase in the tendency for 7% of the fuel to absorb more water (than ornery diesel does already) is pretty insignificant compared with the problems caused by a less-than-full tank of whatever. Tank condensation is the main problem, not hygroscopic fuel.

 

All this reminds me of the potential disasters awaiting us when we changed to lead free petrol when, suddenly, nothing happened! I expect when we are using the new fuel it will be blamed for things which are the result of bad practices.

[TheKeymeister]

At work on the static diesels we've had to change to ULSD due to similar regs I assume, or maybe trying to improve our environmental status...who knows. We run alot of lister SR/ST2 engines and larger ones of a similar vintage with no issues whatsoever. The tanks get filled every few years, again no issues. And in the few remaining underground tanks we have, again no issues with any extreme water absorption. So I really wouldn't be worried.....

 

As for any sulphur additive being illegal, surely the lead additives available when 4-star disappeared would have been illegal too?

[nb Innisfree]

At work on the static diesels we've had to change to ULSD due to similar regs I assume, or maybe trying to improve our environmental status...who knows. We run alot of lister SR/ST2 engines and larger ones of a similar vintage with no issues whatsoever. The tanks get filled every few years, again no issues. And in the few remaining underground tanks we have, again no issues with any extreme water absorption. So I really wouldn't be worried.....

 

As for any sulphur additive being illegal, surely the lead additives available when 4-star disappeared would have been illegal too?

 

Don't think additives contained lead prob a substitute. Sorry to be a pedant but star rating was a measure of octane rating, 2,3,4 and 5 star had lead added IIRCC.

[Hairy-Neil]

 

 

As for any sulphur additive being illegal, surely the lead additives available when 4-star disappeared would have been illegal too?

 

None of the lead replacement products, proven to work, are lead based. The market leaders are Manganese and Sodium based products.

[twinpot]

Modern engines are those where you turn a key and drive off. Vintage engines are the ones where you faff around for half an hour before you go anywhere! :-)

Ah the joys of faffing.

[Proper Job]

Faffing?

 

I top up the day tank, turn on the fuel (not always though ) and press the button.

 

Once running, a quarter turn on each of the greasers - job done.

 

......... mind you..... you're right...... you can't beat a good faff

[WotEver]

When I read the title of this thread I thought it was a new US-style outlet selling diesel in polystyrene containers...

 

Tony

 

Faffing?

 

I top up the day tank, turn on the fuel (not always though ) and press the button.

 

Once running, a quarter turn on each of the greasers - job done.

 

......... mind you..... you're right...... you can't beat a good faff

I said to the bloke on the next mooring to me after he'd finally got his Gardner started after about 25 minutes "That's why I like my Vetus - no messin' around". He replied "If I didn't have to mess around with it I wouldn't want to go boating".

 

Tony