Gas Leak

[paulcatchpole]

Alan

<snip>

Note MPs and AlanCatchpoles comments.

<snip>

 

Alan Catchpole?

 

I've grown a relative!

 

PC

Edited May 27, 2010 by paulcatchpole

[MoominPapa]

I was trying to think of substances which do spontaneously burn in air at room temperature: the only one I can come up with off the top of my head is white phosporous, but there are no doubt others. Oxidisers are more exciting: there's an interesting quote on the Wikipedia page for chlorine trifluoride: "It is ... hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water — with which it reacts explosively." Rocket propelled narrowboat, anybody?

 

MP.

[J R]

I really am not looking to start an argument here, but I find the above fairly incompatible with.....

 

 

 

I personally would feel more comfortable knowing that there is full access to remove the gas bottles from a boat moored next to me in an emergency, than knowing it had had an annual gas inspection, but that the gas locker is padlocked shut unless a BSS exam, (or presumably that annual inspection) is in progress.

 

It's not just about whether the gas will drain out of the locker if there is a leak. It's about being able to get cylinders quickly away from a conflagration before things get a whole heap worse, (my view).

 

Of course it's possible the several fire-fighters who contribute to this forum will say the padlock will not slow them down a lot, but someone else might be able to take action on the gas bottles before the Brigade gets there, and they will not have access to bolt croppers, hydraulic cutters, etc.

 

Actually I'd be interested to hear from the fire-fighters on this particular topic.

 

Apols Paul (Catchpole). Rubbish on names. Apols to Alan Catchpole as well who ever your relative or not maybe.

 

Heated discussion here, please excuse the pun. In reply to your post, I did state that some rules, imo, are good and some bad imo. I lock the gas locker because I don't want some idiot to steal the gas or if the they fail causes a gas leak. I lock my fuel cap because I don't want some thief to steal my diesel. Both are not allowed by the BSS.

 

With reference to nb Innisfree's comment as an ex fire & rescue person I agree with him. Understand that gas bottles will take a huge amout of heat before they explode, but on a boat one or more is supplying gas to the cooker etc. Rubber & copper will melt in a fire and let the gas escape which will increase any fires intensity and put any firefighters at risk. If the gas bottles are isolated to the supply pipes and removed in a boat fire, and who whould want to risk that, then the risk of a gas expolsion are greatly reduced. However, if the gas locker is locked, errrr, well, hopefully the boat is insured. Wrong answer maybe.

 

So what is the correct solution? By the book as Alan says, no problem there, supply the thieves and keep the BSS happy, get a gas test and eliminate the negatives of a faulty gas installation, keep the Fire & Rescue Service in bolt cutter practice or???????????????????????

 

In reply to Chertsey's post, there is no hindsight as to checking his qualifications. I know he can do the job. He knows he can do the job. Due diligence prevails, so always check to make sure the work is done correctly. For your reference, the guy who did my check had done 8 or 11 gas checks for a hire boat company the previous week, and I am sure the company did their due diligence, plus over the last 7 years he has done two gas installations on boats I have built. I still ask him each time for his accreditation as I do with any other contractor. As said before, eliminate the negatives and you are less likely to have problems in the future.

[RLWP]

<snip>. However, if the gas locker is locked, errrr, well, hopefully the boat is insured. Wrong answer maybe.<snip>

 

What an extraordinary callous answer that is. Yes, I'll bet your boat is insured. And the boats moored around you. And I'm sure the firefighters wife will be delighted to claim on her husbands insurance too as he falls foul of your stupidity

 

Richard

[the grinch]

In reply to Chertsey's post, there is no hindsight as to checking his qualifications. I know he can do the job. He knows he can do the job. Due diligence prevails, so always check to make sure the work is done correctly. For your reference, the guy who did my check had done 8 or 11 gas checks for a hire boat company the previous week, and I am sure the company did their due diligence, plus over the last 7 years he has done two gas installations on boats I have built. I still ask him each time for his accreditation as I do with any other contractor. As said before, eliminate the negatives and you are less likely to have problems in the future.

 

it is always relevent to check our credentials as 1. gassafe registration expires once a year. 2. our ACS expires every 5 years. (my own card shows an expiry of 17/06/10 for NG) and doesn't even have my LPG on it (i took my renewals in April so missed the renewal date by a couple of weeks) so until i get a new card it has the last expiry date not the current !

 

i'm just awaiting BPEC updating GSR before applying for an updated card.

 

as for the quote of 540 degrees that is the ignition temperature for Propane (480 - 540) butane on the other hand is 500 and nat gas is 650 all three need a source of ignition so not spontanious combustion!

 

as for pigtails the correct information is that the manufacture date is written on the tail and they should comply with BS3212/1 & 2 they are considered OK for 5 years after which they should be checked for cracking / damage and replaced if any such damage is visually apparent.

 

just checked myself out LOL and i now have 19 categories uploaded to gsr

reg no. 187229 licence no.2516980

Edited May 27, 2010 by hamsterfan

[Chertsey]

In reply to Chertsey's post, there is no hindsight as to checking his qualifications. I know he can do the job. He knows he can do the job. Due diligence prevails, so always check to make sure the work is done correctly. For your reference, the guy who did my check had done 8 or 11 gas checks for a hire boat company the previous week, and I am sure the company did their due diligence, plus over the last 7 years he has done two gas installations on boats I have built. I still ask him each time for his accreditation as I do with any other contractor. As said before, eliminate the negatives and you are less likely to have problems in the future.

I was referring to the fact that you stated as fact something which you claimed he told you that proved to be utter nonsense.

[WotEver]

In reply to Chertsey's post, there is no hindsight as to checking his qualifications. I know he can do the job. He knows he can do the job.

Hmmm... you sure about that?

 

You have confidence in someone who tells you that an lpg/air mixture can self-ignite?

 

Please pass on his name so we can all avoid him.

 

Tony

[alan_fincher]

I lock my fuel cap because I don't want some thief to steal my diesel. Both are not allowed by the BSS.

 

Really, (again ?).

 

And your reference for the BSS not allowing filling fuel caps is ?

 

You do need to check some of this stuff yourself, perhaps, if you are currently relying on the word of others.

[dor]

As mentioned above, I also 'always' turn off the gas at the bottle when leaving the boat for more than a few hours. Quite often I forget to turn it on, and then after lighting the hob, it goes out after a few seconds. Now it struck me that this is a very good way to confirm you have no leaks. If the bottle valve has been turned off and after several hours, sometimes several days, the hob lights and burns normally for a few seconds before slowly fading out, there can't be any sort of a leak.

 

'always' in quotes because I sometimnes forget!

[nb Innisfree]

So what is the correct solution? By the book as Alan says, no problem there, supply the thieves and keep the BSS happy, get a gas test and eliminate the negatives of a faulty gas installation, keep the Fire & Rescue Service in bolt cutter practice or???????????????????????

 

Let me assure everyone that fire service personnel have to work with standard equipment as supplied to industry, trying to release a quality close shouldered padlock and well fitted hasp is a very difficult task and would entail quite a bit of time, ok if it is open to view and easily accessible, probably using an angle grinder but in the case of a rapidly spreading boat fire it would be unrealistic to achieve especially wearing breathing apparatus, all the training in the world can't change the limits of tools such as bolt croppers. Firefighters are normal people and can't achieve the impossible

[Paul Coleman]

As mentioned above, I also 'always' turn off the gas at the bottle when leaving the boat for more than a few hours. Quite often I forget to turn it on, and then after lighting the hob, it goes out after a few seconds. Now it struck me that this is a very good way to confirm you have no leaks. If the bottle valve has been turned off and after several hours, sometimes several days, the hob lights and burns normally for a few seconds before slowly fading out, there can't be any sort of a leak.

 

'always' in quotes because I sometimnes forget!

 

Thats not quite the case for a couple of reasons (that I know of, there may be more).

 

1/ If the shut off valve is not seated correctly and passing a small amount of gas, then it is possible that you have a leak in your pipework but still see the hob burning before fading out.

 

2/ When you shut off the cylinder valve, you still have a quantity of high pressure gas stored between the cylinder valve and the regulator. The regulator will use this small reserve to maintain the pressure in the low pressure system, again masking any leak in the low pressure pipework.

 

I think the above reasons are why a gas tightness test with a manometer is performed at below the regulators set pressure. I'm not a gas engineer.

 

Paul Coleman

[blackrose]

But the point of not locking the gas locker is not just so that the bottle can be accessed to turn off the gas. It is mainly so that in the event of a fire on your boat or a boat moored alongside, someone can get in and remove your gas bottles from danger. A gas bottle in a fire can explode, potentially making a small local fire much worse.

 

David

 

A small local fire would not affect the bottles in my bow gas locker - it's well away from any combustible materials. A larger fire would be different but then nobody's going to be foolish enough to jump onto a burning boat without the proper gear to remove gas bottles. The fire brigade would be able to chop my padlock off in an instant. Anyway, if bottles are locked together inside of an unlocked gas locker it basically amounts to the same thing in terms of not being able to remove them from the locker.

 

The bottom line is that I don't want to make my bottles removable, because if I do I know that in a short time they will be removed (and not because of fire!)

 

 

Let me assure everyone that fire service personnel have to work with standard equipment as supplied to industry, trying to release a quality close shouldered padlock and well fitted hasp is a very difficult task and would entail quite a bit of time, ok if it is open to view and easily accessible, probably using an angle grinder but in the case of a rapidly spreading boat fire it would be unrealistic to achieve especially wearing breathing apparatus, all the training in the world can't change the limits of tools such as bolt croppers. Firefighters are normal people and can't achieve the impossible

 

I know a firefighter who locks the gas locker on his boat. Yes, they are normal people.

[sharpness]

Perhaps I am being naive but our gas locker is never locked. There are 2 bottles, restrained, as is required, by chain on a hook for quick release if I or anyone else needs to. The valve on the bottle in use is always shut when we are not on the boat. For the sake of 20 quids worth of gas, 40 if both bottles happen to be full, I wouldnt have it any other way. If anyone wants to steal my gas then so be it, I still wouldnt have it any other way and if they did I still wouldnt lock the locker. I'd rather that the gas could be got out quickly, by me or someone else in an emergency.

 

Steve

[sueb]

How many on this forum have had gas bottles stolen?

Sue

[FrigateCaptain]

Blood hell James, you got torn apart there, i do think you need to pick your battles better.

 

I do however know the chap your on about and he's the only bloke i fully trust working on my boat

[MtB]

Understand that gas bottles will take a huge amout of heat before they explode,

 

You write this in a way that suggests you know this for a fact. As I understand it, gas bottles are carefully designed in a way that pevents them exploding in the true sense of the word. Or maybe you are using the word 'explode' loosely.

 

For the benefit of the collective knowledge of the board I'll expand on this. LPG bottles are fitted with a temperature and pressure relief valve designed to prevent explosion in extreme conditions. It opens to give a controlled (i.e. slower, and therefore safer) release of the bottle's contents if the temperature or pressure inside reaches a certain level.

 

Burning off the contents of the bottle in a 40ft jet of flame over ten or twenty seconds may be extremely dangerous but it is considered safer than allowing the bottle to split at a far higher temperature. This would lead to burning all the contents in little more than an instant (true explosion), so I was taught during my LPG training. Whether the burn-off and an explosion could BOTH have been avoided had the T+PRV not been fitted in the first place is a moot point, but it is considered that firefighters would rather deal with a hot gas bottle which they know may emit a controlled jet of flame but cannot explode, than one with no T+PRV that could explode unpredictably.

 

The T+PRV is usually easy to spot. It is the little blue or red plastic disc on the back of the isolating valve on top. It simply melts if too hot or gets pushed out of it's seat if the pressure behind it rises too high.

 

Cheers, Mike

[J R]

Blood hell James, you got torn apart there, i do think you need to pick your battles better.

 

I do however know the chap your on about and he's the only bloke i fully trust working on my boat

 

Hi FrigateCaptain

 

Thanks for the post. Off topic for a moment, good to meet up with you and your mrs and all the other disassembled crews we know. Bit of a reunion!!

 

Back on topic. Stand by the bloke you mentioned and echo your thoughts about him. Yes, have provoked 'a bit of an active discussion' on the forum. Stand by my comments. However, and there is usually a however, will always accept critism or correction to what has been said and will listen to those who prohably know more than me. It is my opinion that on this forum if we can comment and learn from other peoples knowledge and experience and share that with other members then this website is working for the benefit of the boaters that use it.