Gas Leak

[Amduck]

This morning I had a phone call from the marina to say that a neighbour had heard gas leaking from our locker and kindly shut off the gas for us.

 

Less than a year ago exactly the same thing happened, one of the hoses was leaking. The hoses were then less than 3 years old, and now they are less than a year old. Last year when this happened the bottles had not long been changed, and I put it down to accidental damage (by my husband, who can be a little heavy handed ) when this was done. This time, there was no leak when I left on Monday morning, and the bottles have not been changed for well over a month.

 

Am I being overly suspicious to find it hard to believe in two such spontaneous incidents in less than a year? I wonder if someone decided to help themselves to gas, and sabotaged the gas system to explain the missing gas.

 

There are generally people around on the marina, and many will know me by sight, although possibly not my husband, who is a much less frequent visitor, so I find it hard to imagine anyone having the brass neck to stand in full view (the gas locker is next to the main pontoon) and steal gas, but on the other hand if someone sees me leaving for work, they can be pretty assured I won't be back for some hours. I hate to think this might be the case, and certainly wouldn't have any idea where to point a finger.

 

Any thoughts?

[blackrose]

I know that strictly speaking we're not really supposed to padlock our gas lockers, but when I balance the risk of a leak developing by itself inside the secured (vented) gas locker and nobody being able to get in to turn the bottles off, against the risk of either a thief or a vandal going in there when I'm not on the boat, I know which option I will choose.

Edited May 27, 2010 by blackrose

[Bill]

If your gas locker is like mine (in bow locker), I can get one bottle at a time in via the locker lid, the locker accomodates 2 bottles in total. I chain both bottles together with a padlock thus making the resulting combination too big to remove, it does allow access to turn off the bottles but prevents them being removed. I'm assuming someone would have to have removed (swapped) your bottles rather than stand there and decant the contents (not sure how you would do that anyhow).

 

If you have a different arrangement the above will probably be of no use anyway.

[Amduck]

It's an ex-hire. It has an enormous gas locker at the back of the cruiser stern, which takes four bottles, all of which can be accessed once the locker lid is open. I guess I could padlock them in pairs, which would still allow them to be turned off by others in an emergency, and would make them rather difficult to remove, so thanks for the suggestion.

 

Anyone any idea how often the hoses might be expected to spring leaks? Could we just have been unlucky?

[blackrose]

It's an ex-hire. It has an enormous gas locker at the back of the cruiser stern, which takes four bottles, all of which can be accessed once the locker lid is open. I guess I could padlock them in pairs, which would still allow them to be turned off by others in an emergency, and would make them rather difficult to remove, so thanks for the suggestion.

 

Anyone any idea how often the hoses might be expected to spring leaks? Could we just have been unlucky?

 

Chances are that the one of the brass fittings that connect the bottles to the regulator isn't done up tight enough.

 

When I change bottles I always try to remember to test it by putting some washing up liquid bubbles around the fitting where it screws into the bottle. Just mix a tiny amount of washing up liquid in half a cup of water and put some bubbles over the joint. It's a good habit to get into. You'll soon see if there's a leak.

[twinpot]

what you need to do is mark the bottom of each gas bottle or stick a magnet on the bottom,then if anyone changes the bottle you will know,

Good luck.

Twinpot.

[J R]

This morning I had a phone call from the marina to say that a neighbour had heard gas leaking from our locker and kindly shut off the gas for us.

 

Less than a year ago exactly the same thing happened, one of the hoses was leaking. The hoses were then less than 3 years old, and now they are less than a year old. Last year when this happened the bottles had not long been changed, and I put it down to accidental damage (by my husband, who can be a little heavy handed ) when this was done. This time, there was no leak when I left on Monday morning, and the bottles have not been changed for well over a month.

 

Am I being overly suspicious to find it hard to believe in two such spontaneous incidents in less than a year? I wonder if someone decided to help themselves to gas, and sabotaged the gas system to explain the missing gas.

 

There are generally people around on the marina, and many will know me by sight, although possibly not my husband, who is a much less frequent visitor, so I find it hard to imagine anyone having the brass neck to stand in full view (the gas locker is next to the main pontoon) and steal gas, but on the other hand if someone sees me leaving for work, they can be pretty assured I won't be back for some hours. I hate to think this might be the case, and certainly wouldn't have any idea where to point a finger.

 

Any thoughts?

 

We padlock our bow gas locker to help prevent theft. Yes, I know it is against the BSS rules, and when we have the mandatory survey the lock will be removed. If there is a leak the gas will escape through the holes in the bottom of the locker.

 

I am led to believe that the hoses need to be replaced every four years. They are date marked in printed paint from the time of manufacture; just add four years to the date and that gives you your use by date.

 

Do you have your system checked every year by a qualified Gas Safe registered engineer? We do as a matter of course and peace of mind and treat it as annual maintenence. With knocks and bangs that you get from time to time sometimes joints can become loose etc. (We had ours done as it happens yesterday morning. We passed again!). The guy is specifically trained for marine LPG.

 

FYI, LPG will self ignite when the gas to oxygen/air mix is 1:52. I feel that marinas as part of the mooring contract should insist on owners having a gas check done annually if not for the sake of an individual owner, but of everyone else around them. If gas leaks inside a boat there could be horrendous consequencies. It is a requirement for hire boats to have an annual check.

[Naughty Cal]

FYI, LPG will self ignite when the gas to oxygen/air mix is 1:52. I feel that marinas as part of the mooring contract should insist on owners having a gas check done annually if not for the sake of an individual owner, but of everyone else around them. If gas leaks inside a boat there could be horrendous consequencies. It is a requirement for hire boats to have an annual check.

 

Do you not think that an annual gas test is a little OTT. As with everything else it would only guarantee the systems function on the day of the test.

[Guest]

If your gas locker is like mine (in bow locker), I can get one bottle at a time in via the locker lid, the locker accomodates 2 bottles in total. I chain both bottles together with a padlock thus making the resulting combination too big to remove, it does allow access to turn off the bottles but prevents them being removed. I'm assuming someone would have to have removed (swapped) your bottles rather than stand there and decant the contents (not sure how you would do that anyhow).

 

If you have a different arrangement the above will probably be of no use anyway.

Thanks for that idea :-)

[MoominPapa]

FYI, LPG will self ignite when the gas to oxygen/air mix is 1:52.

No way. No ratio of LPG to air is hypergolic. It will burn/explode if the mixture is between the lower explosive limit and the upper explosive limit, but it needs an external source of ignition at room temperature.

 

MP.

[nb Innisfree]

FYI, LPG will self ignite when the gas to oxygen/air mix is 1:52.

 

If that's true then we're all doomed

[Keeping Up]

It is not uncommon for gas bottled themselves to develop a leak, in their own valve, which can be cured by turning the valve off. It would be unusual, but not particularly surprising, if it happened to you twice.

 

Similarly I have had brand-new pigtails develop a leak after only a few months.

[Amduck]

Do you have your system checked every year by a qualified Gas Safe registered engineer? We do as a matter of course and peace of mind and treat it as annual maintenence.

 

 

Can't say we planned to do so, although it's a good idea, but I had some trouble with the boiler following the really cold weather earlier this year, and the system was checked and tested then by a gas safe bod.

 

Guess maybe we have just been unlucky, judging by some advice. Will know a bit more about what is leaking exactly when I get to the boat after my night shift tonight.

 

Thanks everybody for replies.

[J R]

Do you not think that an annual gas test is a little OTT. As with everything else it would only guarantee the systems function on the day of the test.

 

MoominPapa. Interesting comment you have made. What did you say your Gas Safe ID number was? Remain to be convinced otherwise but please comment further if you want.

 

As to the other post, yes, the test is only valid on the day it is done. Damage can be done five minutes after the check has been completed and the certificate obtained, but damage could have been done over the previous 12 months that should be corrected or wear and tear on a bit that needs replacing like a FFD on the cooker thats worn out. It for us is meerly to ensure that everything has been done to make sure the boat and anyone on or near it are as safe as possible. It is part of our annual maintenence stuff that is worked through. If someone thinks that this is OTT so be it. IMO that is a very narrow viewpoint. If someone is prepared to take that risk for him/her and/or family/friends/workers/third parties it is up to the individual to face the consequences if it all goes terribly wrong. Who wants to take that risk? Our procedure is our personnal viewpoint and to date works for us. Other viewpoints are available.

 

I cannot reccomend a gas check strongly enough. Your decision. For the sake of £70 odd quid is not peace of mind worth it?

[alan_fincher]

FYI, LPG will self ignite when the gas to oxygen/air mix is 1:52.

Your source for this information ?

[the grinch]

FYI, LPG will self ignite when the gas to oxygen/air mix is 1:52.

where did you get that from?

 

It will burn/explode if the mixture is between the lower explosive limit and the upper explosive limit, but it needs an external source of ignition at room temperature.

 

MP.

 

 

i agree

gas in air limits

upper explosive limits are 9% butane and 10% propane

lower explosive limits are 1.8% butane and 2.2% propane

natural gas by the way is 5-15%

[J R]

Your source for this information ?

 

The Gas Safe engineer who did the check yesterday morning.

[alan_fincher]

The Gas Safe engineer who did the check yesterday morning.

Well bully for him !

 

And I guess, unlike poor old MP that you took a pop at, he does have a Gas Safe ID number.

 

Actually were it true, it could be quite useful, particularly if you had run out of matches. Simply turn a gas hob on, and wait for the mix to be correct for it self-ignite.

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

The replace the hoses every 4 years bit is also incorrect, by the way........

Edited May 27, 2010 by alan_fincher

[MoominPapa]

MoominPapa. Interesting comment you have made. What did you say your Gas Safe ID number was? Remain to be convinced otherwise but please comment further if you want.

Amazingly enough, it's possible to know such things without having Gas Safe qualification. Indeed it's possible to work it out for oneself by pure induction: in my forty-plus years I have turned on gas rings, grills, burners and blowlamps thousands of times, and not once have they ignited spontaneously. I further observe that most gas appliances have a source of ignition, a spark-gap or pilot light. If it were possible to get a mixture of LPG and air to burn without an external energy source, then designers of gas appliances would use that and not bother with pilot lights!

 

Note I'm not saying that filling a boat with gas is a safe thing to do: there's always the possibility that enough activation energy can be had from sparking electrical contacts or even friction, and any open flames will certainly intiate an explosion. I'm saying that your statement "LPG will self ignite" is wrong.

 

MP.

[paulcatchpole]

I'm saying that your statement "LPG will self ignite" is wrong.

 

MP.

 

I'm with you, MP!

 

'Tis possible eventually though, but I don't want the boat this hot:

 

Autoignition

temperature 540 °C (813.1 K)

 

PC

[J R]

Well bully for him !

 

And I guess, unlike poor old MP that you took a pop at, he does have a Gas Safe ID number.

 

Actually were it true, it could be quite useful, particularly if you had run out of matches. Simply turn a gas hob on, and wait for the mix to be correct for it self-ignite.

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

The replace the hoses every 4 years bit is also incorrect, by the way........

 

Alan

 

Had no intention of taking a pop at MP. Only was stateing an opinion. Yes it is possible to gain alot of knowledge with out being qualified/registered in whatever subject it is. Only was stateing what I felt on the subject. As an individual you should make your own decision and one is entitled to an opinion. Only working on advice given and experience.

 

Note MPs and AlanCatchpoles comments. Can only comment on how I see it, rightly or wrongly and always stand to be corrected. But, and there is always a but, in this over regulated world you have to keep to certain rules, some good imo, some bad imo. There are alot of 'duty of care' issues out there in the work place. As stated before, the reply posted was an opinion; individules make there own decisions. The gas engineer also said that an exploding boat can ruin your cruising experience. I did agree with him on that.

 

Please note. Anyone having a gas check should check prior to the inspection the ID photocard of the Gas Sheck engineer and make sure that they are suitably qualified/competant for the job they are there to do. This can also be verified on the Gas Safe website or by telephone.

[Chertsey]

Please note. Anyone having a gas check should check prior to the inspection the ID photocard of the Gas Sheck engineer and make sure that they are suitably qualified/competant for the job they are there to do. This can also be verified on the Gas Safe website or by telephone.

Are you saying this with hindsight in the light of the fact that your guy appears to have given you some rather dodgy 'information'?

[alan_fincher]

But, and there is always a but, in this over regulated world you have to keep to certain rules, some good imo, some bad imo.

 

I really am not looking to start an argument here, but I find the above fairly incompatible with.....

 

We padlock our bow gas locker to help prevent theft. Yes, I know it is against the BSS rules, and when we have the mandatory survey the lock will be removed. If there is a leak the gas will escape through the holes in the bottom of the locker.

 

I personally would feel more comfortable knowing that there is full access to remove the gas bottles from a boat moored next to me in an emergency, than knowing it had had an annual gas inspection, but that the gas locker is padlocked shut unless a BSS exam, (or presumably that annual inspection) is in progress.

 

It's not just about whether the gas will drain out of the locker if there is a leak. It's about being able to get cylinders quickly away from a conflagration before things get a whole heap worse, (my view).

 

Of course it's possible the several fire-fighters who contribute to this forum will say the padlock will not slow them down a lot, but someone else might be able to take action on the gas bottles before the Brigade gets there, and they will not have access to bolt croppers, hydraulic cutters, etc.

 

Actually I'd be interested to hear from the fire-fighters on this particular topic.

[Chertsey]

I really am not looking to start an argument here, but I find the above fairly incompatible with.....

 

 

 

I personally would feel more comfortable knowing that there is full access to remove the gas bottles from a boat moored next to me in an emergency, than knowing it had had an annual gas inspection, but that the gas locker is padlocked shut unless a BSS exam, (or presumably that annual inspection) is in progress.

 

It's not just about whether the gas will drain out of the locker if there is a leak. It's about being able to get cylinders quickly away from a conflagration before things get a whole heap worse, (my view).

 

Of course it's possible the several fire-fighters who contribute to this forum will say the padlock will not slow them down a lot, but someone else might be able to take action on the gas bottles before the Brigade gets there, and they will not have access to bolt croppers, hydraulic cutters, etc.

 

Actually I'd be interested to hear from the fire-fighters on this particular topic.

 

I guess if they can't get the gas bottles out they would try to move the whole boat - or might that be the first option in any case? Just hope the boat isn't chained up as well for 'security' reasons.

[nb Innisfree]

Well as an ex FF I wouldn't fancy fumbling with a pair of bolt croppers in the dark wearing gloves and breathing apparatus before using a spanner to remove valve connection

Edited May 27, 2010 by nb Innisfree