Sunken Boat - GU

[Tim Doran]

Yes, I was. Do you have a problem with that, boy? And SIT UP STRAIGHT when you're being spoken to!

 

And how many times do I have to say tuck your shirt in!

[Mrs Tawny Owl]

The "triggers broom" comment clearly demonstrates your ignorance.

 

Wooden narrow boats (with a very small number of exceptions) would be more accurately described as "composite" boats as they have a large amount of ironwork in them.

 

The planks of a wooden boat are replaced, every 20 years or 30 years, but the iron knees and structural woodwork which dictate the shape and character of the boat, on Umbriel, are still in very good condition,after over 70 years (apart from the counter block, which is the reason for her sinking and difficulty in refloating).

 

As you are someone who owns a burnt out wreck, that many people would have dismissed as not worth saving, your attitude would surprise me, if I didn't take into account your ignorance.

 

If I was offered loads of cash then yes, I would restore it. If that is a serious offer could you get in touch by PM?

 

This is probably a very stupid question, but asked because I want to know if it might be possible, not cos I'm being awkward.

 

If the planks are consumable, and she can't be raised in her current condition, would it be feasible to remove them planks in situ, so lightening her, and then be able somehow (it's not completely thought through I'll admit) to get her to a position where she could be got out of the water and so saved.

 

As I said probably a very stupid suggestion, please be gentle when explaining why it is. (That's everyone please be gentle, or at least civil, I'm no expert and not claiming to be)

 

Sue

[Evo]

This is probably a very stupid question, but asked because I want to know if it might be possible, not cos I'm being awkward.

 

If the planks are consumable, and she can't be raised in her current condition, would it be feasible to remove them planks in situ, so lightening her, and then be able somehow (it's not completely thought through I'll admit) to get her to a position where she could be got out of the water and so saved.

 

As I said probably a very stupid suggestion, please be gentle when explaining why it is. (That's everyone please be gentle, or at least civil, I'm no expert and not claiming to be)

 

Sue

 

Now look here..!!! I dont want you Smart arse people making useful suggestions. This thread is for ignorant morons only. I'm currently standing in the corner with a pointy hat on, but couldn't resist this.

 

I was struggling with what Carl said myself..!!! me being so ignorant and all. Its not Triggers broom because the wood is all consumable..????? EH..!!! The knees are Iron..!!! and the boat is regarded as composite....which I take to mean not a wooden boat.

So what are we saying here...!! save a few knees and some key bits of Oak/Elm and jobs a goodun...She can be rebuilt using her original name.

 

President springs to mind.

 

I reckon I'd drag it out in a million bits - as you suggest Sue - hide it in a big shed and build a new boat using some of the original parts. When the Shed opens a whole new UMBR...????

[Nightwatch]

And how many times do I have to say tuck your shirt in!

Wind yer neck in and stow yer t+ts.!!!

 

Evo.. You are a rude man/woman.

 

Martyn

[Mrs Tawny Owl]

I didn't say drag it out in a million bits. I was thinking more of taking of some of the weight so the structure could be raised as one bit. Probably have to get the engine separated if possible, but then they are designed to go in and out anyway so that's realistic.

 

You might be onto something though. That Midget Richard has restored and sold arrived in a van in lots of boxes, so why not take her out in bits and put her back together.

 

That's what they did with all the buildings they moved to the black country museum, or are they not now authentic cos they had to use a bit of new mortar to stop them falling over. (and maybe even new screws and nails)

 

Anyway I was really asking Carl, who I believe does know about this sort of thing, for a sensible explanation of what is wrong with the plan.

 

Sue

[Chris Pink]

 

 

Anyway I was really asking Carl, who I believe does know about this sort of thing, for a sensible explanation of what is wrong with the plan.

 

Sue

 

Hopefully my answer will do; a wooden boat gains it's strength from the whole construction, even in a right ol' state they still have an incredible amount of strength in the structure, though you can break them by trying to lift them badly.

 

So if you started to remove planks you would probably remove more strength than weight (if you see what i mean.)

 

The best way to lift it is to stuff it full of air (less water), pump the remaining water out like billy-o and stuff up any holes as and when they reach the waterline. The picture of lucy earlier in the thread, complete with plastic wrap gives the idea.

 

It is unlikely that a crane would reach that position so really it needs to be floated first. A look at the film 'The importance of being Albert' shows how far gone a boat can be and still be floated to get to dock. And Albert was far far worse than Umbriel.

 

If broken up then the only thing salvageable will be the ironwork and though trigger's broom applied to wooden boats sometimes means the knees are the only original bit it wouldn't really be the same boat. I believe Jem Bates gives a good price for knees that he then builds new boats onto because the iron that knees are formed out of are unobtainable any more - Ii did get a quote once, for 30 tonnes minimum order.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Chris Pink

[carlt]

This is probably a very stupid question, but asked because I want to know if it might be possible, not cos I'm being awkward.

 

If the planks are consumable, and she can't be raised in her current condition, would it be feasible to remove them planks in situ, so lightening her, and then be able somehow (it's not completely thought through I'll admit) to get her to a position where she could be got out of the water and so saved.

 

As I said probably a very stupid suggestion, please be gentle when explaining why it is. (That's everyone please be gentle, or at least civil, I'm no expert and not claiming to be)

 

Sue

Unfortunately the boats are a lot stronger than they look and, as anyone who helped me remove parts off Usk on dry land would confirm, dismantling it would be near impossible, in the water, non-destructively.

 

A lot of work has been done on Umbriel which would make her even more difficult to dismantle.

 

Despite appearances, and "expert" opinions, Umbriel was in pretty good order, apart from the stern, but the new counter block replacement was planned, the wood acquired and sat on the mooring, waiting.

[Mrs Tawny Owl]

I thought there would be a good reason, thanks both of you.

 

It would be good to see her saved, especially if as you say she was in generally good order before she sank, and the required maintenance was planned and even under way.

 

Sue

[carlt]

I was struggling with what Carl said myself..!!! me being so ignorant and all. Its not Triggers broom because the wood is all consumable..????? EH..!!! The knees are Iron..!!! and the boat is regarded as composite....which I take to mean not a wooden boat.

So what are we saying here...!! save a few knees and some key bits of Oak/Elm and jobs a goodun...She can be rebuilt using her original name.

 

Wooden narrow boats are not, in the true sense, "wooden" boats (with the exception of a few examples), but would be regarded, anywhere other than the cut, as "composite".

 

Much like the Cutty Sark which is a "composite" boat...ie. an iron frame with wooden planks.

 

Umbriel has enough original wood to be, in my opinion, regarded as a restoration. Usk, after it was torched, was strictly a rebuild proposition.

 

Short of writing in crayon and drawing stick man pictures I don't see how I can make it any simpler for EVo to understand.

[rubblequeen]

Hi another post from someone who knows nothing - but to those who do. If the owner has now abandoned the boat who owns it? If he still owns it is he liable for the costs of BW removing/breaking it up?

 

Next I wasn't clear as to whether it would be a viable business option to have it lifted and restored professionally?

[Evo]

I guess you are talking about a humungus amount of work to replace the stern. What does 'block' mean..? What sort of hole are you talking about that 8 pumps cant overcome...? A big one I presume. It cant of been totally water tight the last time it was refloated can it..? must of been just waiting to sink again. I dont know the circumstances of the owner but it seems a hell of a waste of effort to refloat it and then go moor it up in deepish water. Has the owner just walked away, or has he gone off to formulate a new plan..?

 

I still see a fair few wooden boats about here and there, its not like we are looking at the loss of the last remaining wooden boat, or even the last of its type/builder. Is it famous for anything, or is it important just because its wood and old.

 

This appears to be a throw alot of money at it with a serious rebuild from a moneys no object guy or forget it. How long do you think BW will allow it to be forgotten before they turn up with a digger bucket.

[Guest User]

I guess you are talking about a humungus amount of work to replace the stern. What does 'block' mean..? What sort of hole are you talking about that 8 pumps cant overcome...? A big one I presume. It cant of been totally water tight the last time it was refloated can it..? must of been just waiting to sink again. I dont know the circumstances of the owner but it seems a hell of a waste of effort to refloat it and then go moor it up in deepish water. Has the owner just walked away, or has he gone off to formulate a new plan..?

 

I still see a fair few wooden boats about here and there, its not like we are looking at the loss of the last remaining wooden boat, or even the last of its type/builder. Is it famous for anything, or is it important just because its wood and old.

 

This appears to be a throw alot of money at it with a serious rebuild from a moneys no object guy or forget it. How long do you think BW will allow it to be forgotten before they turn up with a digger bucket.

 

.... Post #28 and thereabouts of this thread, http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=26823&view=findpost&p=457346

[carlt]

I guess you are talking about a humungus amount of work to replace the stern. What does 'block' mean..? What sort of hole are you talking about that 8 pumps cant overcome...? A big one I presume. It cant of been totally water tight the last time it was refloated can it..? must of been just waiting to sink again. I dont know the circumstances of the owner but it seems a hell of a waste of effort to refloat it and then go moor it up in deepish water. Has the owner just walked away, or has he gone off to formulate a new plan..?

 

I still see a fair few wooden boats about here and there, its not like we are looking at the loss of the last remaining wooden boat, or even the last of its type/builder. Is it famous for anything, or is it important just because its wood and old.

 

This appears to be a throw alot of money at it with a serious rebuild from a moneys no object guy or forget it. How long do you think BW will allow it to be forgotten before they turn up with a digger bucket.

Google is your friend.

 

You're not really interested so I'm not going to waste my time explaining the details of a narrow boat to you.

 

If you want to know look it up.

 

Umbriel is unusual because it has a triple keelson, something I have not come across on any other wooden narrow boat though I understand there is/was another one.

 

There was a temporary stern in place, while the owner (a wooden boat restorer whose work has won the Ken Keay Award, btw.) reduced the huge block of oak down to a counter shaped lump (whilst working full time restoring the woodwork in a church, as well).

 

I expect this temporary back end has failed.

 

As to how long the boat will be left...I imagine they'll move in when the licence runs out. That's what happened with Usk.

[carlt]

Hi another post from someone who knows nothing - but to those who do. If the owner has now abandoned the boat who owns it? If he still owns it is he liable for the costs of BW removing/breaking it up?

 

Next I wasn't clear as to whether it would be a viable business option to have it lifted and restored professionally?

The owner is liable (or his insurance company.

 

There are very few wooden narrow boat restorers that are actually making money and, those that are, do so by working on other people's boats.

 

There is no money in restoring your own wooden boat so the only people that do it are particularly passionate about it.

Edited October 14, 2010 by carlt

[Allan(nb Albert)]

The owner is liable (or his insurance company.

 

There are very few wooden narrow boat restorers that are actually making money and, those that are, do so by working on other people's boats.

 

There is no money in restoring your own wooden boat so the only people that do it are particularly passionate about it.

 

I used to pass a pair of wooden boats on the eight mile pound (Knowle bottom to Hatton top on the GU) and considered them an eyesore. It was not until I posted on this forum and Carl gave some information about them that I saw them in a different light.

 

Now when I pass them, I have a good look, hoping they are not sitting lower in the water and that a bit of work has been done on them.

 

If it had not been for Carl's passion regarding these boats, I would not have stopped at Bascote Staircase last year and offered to tow a broken down boat a mile or so back to moorings.

 

Cue for Carl to name the three boats!

Edited October 14, 2010 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Mrs Tawny Owl]

I used to pass a pair of wooden boats on the eight mile pound (Knowle bottom to Hatton top on the GU) and considered them an eyesore. It was not until I posted on this forum and Carl gave some information about them that I saw them in a different light.

 

Now when I pass them, I have a good look, hoping they are not sitting lower in the water and that a bit of work has been done on them.

 

If it had not been for Carl's passion regarding these boats, I would not have stopped at Bascote Staircase last year and offered to tow a broken down boat a mile or so back to moorings.

 

Cue for Carl to name the three boats!

 

I know I know, well 2 of them anyway.

 

The pair just up from Hatton are Forget-me-knot and Mabel. The motor is Mabel.

 

We see them regularly, and like you have a good look to see what's changed, and to make sure they are still floating.

 

Sue

[Doorman]

I hope he dosn't try for the Moron Award, Carl gave me that honour a year or so back and i'll fight hard to keep it

 

Keep up the good work!

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I know I know, well 2 of them anyway.

 

The pair just up from Hatton are Forget-me-knot and Mabel. The motor is Mabel.

 

We see them regularly, and like you have a good look to see what's changed, and to make sure they are still floating.

 

Sue

 

Thanks for that Sue. I thought it was just me that had gone soft!

 

Unfortunately, Carl now just has one boat to name.

[carlt]

I know I know, well 2 of them anyway.

 

The pair just up from Hatton are Forget-me-knot and Mabel. The motor is Mabel.

 

We see them regularly, and like you have a good look to see what's changed, and to make sure they are still floating.

 

Sue

Forget-me-not was in dock, in July, (you've reminded me that they still have my jigsaw), last remnants of the conversion removed, recaulked, a bottom repair and a persistent leak behind a knee finally fixed.

 

I'm not too sure about Mabel because the owner has been very preoccupied with his new baby and I haven't spoken to him for some time.

 

I'm guessing that the Bascote boat was the Josher, Beech, as it has a mooring down that way.

[dmw_boatboy]

I used to pass a pair of wooden boats on the eight mile pound (Knowle bottom to Hatton top on the GU) and considered them an eyesore. It was not until I posted on this forum and Carl gave some information about them that I saw them in a different light.

 

Now when I pass them, I have a good look, hoping they are not sitting lower in the water and that a bit of work has been done on them.

 

If it had not been for Carl's passion regarding these boats, I would not have stopped at Bascote Staircase last year and offered to tow a broken down boat a mile or so back to moorings.

 

Cue for Carl to name the three boats!

 

 

I remember Umbriel sinking in the Hatton flight when mike owned here and he waited till night time and drained the pound she was in repair the hole job done. The only trouble was the excess water going into the lower pond ended up flooding the BP station. oops

 

In reply to Evo's small minded comments If it hadn't been for wooden working boats you wouldn't have a canal to float your boat! Umbriel was built in August 1935 which means she belongs on the canal a lot more than yours does!

 

This picture was of her June 1937 At the opening of the new frogmore wharf slipway.

 

As i built a model replica of Umbriel i have researched a lot about her and she was also the first boat i ever drove pictured here.

 

And this is a picture of here with a full top while owner by Larrance Hogg 1984

 

and to carlt once we have moved which hopefully will be in the next month ill be going down to lend a hand with her.

[Doorman]

Can you arrange an introduction though ?

 

Yes, here she is!

 

[carlt]

Is her head on back to front?

[matty40s]

Once rejoining the floating community,I used to go past the puddlebanks on a regular basis, I could see the hulls, and the kit salvaged on the banks but didn't know the story until becoming a member on here. I have never met Carl to my knowledge, but he is an inspiration to those people who want to liveaboard as a lifestyle with kids in tow. Once I got to know the background, I was able to explain to my daughter what was going on with the vessels, and subsequently went on to give her whole class a chat at Foxton locks on boats, restorations and canals in general.

it is a shame/travesty what happened in the end, but if things can be learnt to save other historical craft (Umbriel etc),then maybe not all is in vein.

[RLWP]

Is her head on back to front?

 

Very long fringe

[Doorman]

Is her head on back to front?

Frontal view with a previous introduction.