How do I find a good boat builder?

[MtB]

On 09/07/2017 at 13:07, Ampen Spekersohn said:

Nightwatch, I completely empathise with this. I think pump-outs work OK when you have a holiday boat which returns to base at the end of a week/fortnight. But when you have to actively seek out a facility (which is conveniently open), get onto the berth, pay for it, etc, it can become a pain. Hence leaving it till the last minute. 

Also, let's consider the issues of installing a pump-out. A decent capacity is going to need a tank of 150 gallons or more. That's around 700Kg of sewage. Now, unless you can design in a tank which sits on the boat centreline, it's going to cause quite a list as it fills. I think that space could be better used.

Pump-out costs: charges are heading up towards £20 a go now. Then you have to add the cost of Blue to prevent it stinking. Macerator toilets are OK, but they are susceptible to getting blocked and will need repairing sometimes. Nice job!

Then there's the 'iced-in' scenario.

Compost toilets: some people rave about them, but they are far better suited to an off-grid land based property, because of the need to fully compost the poo, which can take 6 months. I don't really want my well deck full of bins of $hit.

Which brings me to the incinerator toilet. The one downside is they take a lot of power. Typically around 2KWh to deal with the morning's activities. Which would be a lot to provide via batteries/inverter, but I am planning a 7.5KVA 230V alternator connected to a DSR regulator. I will also have a 1KW immersion heater to help load up the engine. The alternator will also drive a combi charger/inverter, which will deliver 100A @ 12V. So it might be a question of running the engine for an hour in the morning, but it will charge the batteries, heat the water, vaporise the poo and run the toaster. The difference in fuel cost of adding a 3-4KW load to a 30+HP engine, is going to be minimal.

Think about it - no cassettes to empty. No pump-outs to pay for. No pump-out tank. No buckets of fermenting poo. No situation where you have no toilet capacity left. The tree-huggers might not approve, but I think the system has a lot of merit. My only concern is what the exhaust from toilet might smell like. I think I'll keep it well away from the steerer's position!

Which one sounds nicest though?

 

The K2 sounds best without a doubt. Have a look at youtube and search for the videos of NB "OWL".

[Ampen Spekersohn]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

C'mon, you're just making excuses to spend two whole days in The Wharf pub aren't you!

Is it called The Wharf now? It used to be the George & Dragon. Funny thing was, back in the 80's the landlord's name was George... never found out what his wife's name was. That was when Bob Longman used to own the wharf cottage and had Callisto and Ara moored there.

In 1981, Bob transported the very last commercial cargo along the S Oxford for me. He brought up 20 tonnes of ballast and cement from Banbury to Claydon.

[MtB]

Two cylinders sound much more 'boaty' than three. 

Presumably George's wife made him change the name after the inevitable and obvious jokes about her wore too thin

[alan_fincher]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Two cylinders sound much more 'boaty' than three.

Agreed!

Although some genuinely old narrow boats acquired 3 pot (or even more) as part of their working lives, it was relatively unusual, and anything with no more than 2 pots usually sounds more the business, (in my view anyway).

Plus anything that is a "three", (including a JP3), is really more than any leisure narrow boat needs.

In general a narrow boat diesel will fare better if it has to work at least slightly hard sometimes.  If you put in an engine where anything more than idle is often too fast, it really isn't good for them, and they tend to survive less well over the years.

(A K2 sounds lovely, but IMO, is also far too big for a modern build leisure narrow boat.)

[Ampen Spekersohn]

1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

Agreed!

Although some genuinely old narrow boats acquired 3 pot (or even more) as part of their working lives, it was relatively unusual, and anything with no more than 2 pots usually sounds more the business, (in my view anyway).

Plus anything that is a "three", (including a JP3), is really more than any leisure narrow boat needs.

In general a narrow boat diesel will fare better if it has to work at least slightly hard sometimes.  If you put in an engine where anything more than idle is often too fast, it really isn't good for them, and they tend to survive less well over the years.

(A K2 sounds lovely, but IMO, is also far too big for a modern build leisure narrow boat.)

I agree about not over-powering. I recently looked at a boat with a 56HP Gardner 4LK in it! IMHO, that is OTT, so I certainly wouldn't go for a 4-pot. Plus they sound like a vintage bus. But a JP2 is what, 18-21HP, depending on model? A JP3M is 35HP @ 1200rpm, which to me, is good for loading up with 230/12V alternators and have plenty in reserve for tidal work, without going to max revs. And still sounds pretty good, no?

[alan_fincher]

It's a personal thing, isn't it?

To me a JP2 will always sound far more "right" in a narrow boat than a JP3.

I guess it isn't surprising that for many of the variants of the type of engines under discussion that a 2 pot model will often attract a far higher price than one with more cylinders.

[MtB]

On 09/07/2017 at 13:33, Ampen Spekersohn said:

I agree about not over-powering. I recently looked at a boat with a 56HP Gardner 4LK in it! IMHO, that is OTT, so I certainly wouldn't go for a 4-pot. Plus they sound like a vintage bus. But a JP2 is what, 18-21HP, depending on model? A JP3M is 35HP @ 1200rpm, which to me, is good for loading up with 230/12V alternators and have plenty in reserve for tidal work, without going to max revs. And still sounds pretty good, no?

 

Engine power is a sublime thing in my experience. I had a 35hp Beta BD3 in this 68ft boat originally and the power was phenomenal. I replaced it with a Kelvin K1 (22hp) and it was shockingly slow and the brakes non-existent. I changed the blade to over-prop it to improve the brakes and the forward performance hardly reduced. But at a max engine speed of 450rpm now, it can hardly be transmitting more than about 10hp into the water.

My previous boat (40ft,with 35hp beta greenline engine) was considerably slower than this 68ft boat with the same HP engine. 

I have a 36hp Kingfisher in my other boat and it doesn't seem especially fast. Nimble but not over-powered. 

Oh and my last point is the 22hp Kelvin if started when the batteries are flat, will hardly rev at all for five minutes or so as the alternator fully loads the engine! 

[Ampen Spekersohn]

Just now, alan_fincher said:

It's a personal thing, isn't it?

To me a JP2 will always sound far more "right" in a narrow boat than a JP3.

I guess it isn't surprising that for many of the variants of the type of engines under discussion that a 2 pot model will often attract a far higher price than one with more cylinders.

That was the other point I was going to make. A fully restored JP2 fetches around £12k. A JP3 is around £9k! That three grand would go along way towards the boat fitout.

[MtB]

On 09/07/2017 at 13:54, Ampen Spekersohn said:

That was the other point I was going to make. A fully restored JP2 fetches around £12k. A JP3 is around £9k! That three grand would go along way towards the boat fitout.

 

Just cap off one of the injector fuel pipes and bingo, a bargain JP2.

[Ampen Spekersohn]

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Engine power is a sublime thing in my experience. I had a 35hp Beta BD3 in this 68ft boat originally and the power was phenomenal. I replaced it with a Kelvin K1 (22hp) and it was shockingly slow and the brakes non-existent. I changed the blade to over-prop it to improve the brakes and the forward performance hardly reduced. But at a max engine speed of 450rpm now, it can hardly be transmitting more than about 10hp into the water.

My previous boat (40ft,with 35hp beta greenline engine) was considerably slower than this 68ft boat with the same HP engine. 

I have a 36hp Kingfisher in my other boat and it doesn't seem especially fast. Nimble but not over-powered. 

Oh and my last point is the 22hp Kelvin if started when the batteries are flat, will hardly rev at all for five minutes or so as the alternator fully loads the engine! 

Clearly, hydrodynamics have a big bearing on this. A well-crafted hull with great swims is going to slip through the water far better than a box with a rounded front. Prop choice is pretty critical too. I want to try to get a good compromise between prop diameter and draught. I'm keen to keep the draught below 28", so something like a 24 x 20 Crowther prop, connected to the PRM260 seems about right.

Would appreciate thoughts on this!

[MtB]

On 09/07/2017 at 14:02, Ampen Spekersohn said:

Clearly, hydrodynamics have a big bearing on this. A well-crafted hull with great swims is going to slip through the water far better than a box with a rounded front. Prop choice is pretty critical too. I want to try to get a good compromise between prop diameter and draught. I'm keen to keep the draught below 28", so something like a 24 x 20 Crowther prop, connected to the PRM260 seems about right.

Would appreciate thoughts on this!

My BD3 was running a 21 x 19 blade on a 2:1 PRM D260. 

I now have the same blade back on the boat with the Kelvin. 

One trap boaters with big engines run into is fitting the blade Crowther calculate and recommend as matching the engine This can result in the boat being too fast even at tickover, which results in you having to constantly take it in and out of gear when following a very slow boat. This WILL drive you nuts! 

[Ampen Spekersohn]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

My BD3 was running a 21 x 19 blade on a 2:1 PRM D260. 

I now have the same blade back on the boat with the Kelvin. 

One trap boaters with big engines run into is fitting the blade Crowther calculate and recommend as matching the engine This can result in the boat being too fast even at tickover, which results in you having to constantly take it in and out of gear when following a very slow boat. This WILL drive you nuts! 

Good point. That's something I'm very keen to avoid. The boat I mentioned with the 4LK had exactly that problem - probably capable of 3mph+ at tickover.

With the miles of moored boats we have to go past these days, it's definitely one aspect to get right. If I'm in conversation with Crowther, I will raise this point.

[Bewildered]

13 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

JP3M without doubt. 3LW are pretty dull engines and common as muck. There isn't even a flywheel to watch going round. A Kelvin K2 or J3 would be an even better choice. 

And I suggest having both types of bog. If the pumpout is full you can use the cassette. And, vice versa obviously!

1 hour ago, Ampen Spekersohn said:

Which one sounds nicest though?

Well the cassette has a satisfying thud as it hits the bottom of an empty cassette whereas your dump through has a more cavernous echoing quality. The macerator has an anoying whining sound. It all comes down to personal choice of what kind of sound you most appriciate. 

[WotEver]

10 hours ago, Ampen Spekersohn said:

A decent capacity is going to need a tank of 150 gallons or more. That's around 700Kg of sewage. Now, unless you can design in a tank which sits on the boat centreline, it's going to cause quite a list as it fills

One way around that is to have a separate 'flushing water' tank on the same side as the black water tank. Ballast the boat with the flushing tank full. As the black water tank fills the flushing tank empties, keeping the list more or less neutral. 

Of course this wastes even more space and so is a very bad idea.

 

[Ampen Spekersohn]

Hmmm... you've just made the turd-burner look even more attractive! Think how many pairs of shoes 'er indoors could fit in that space!

[Athy]

18 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

Oh! No, you're joking!

No, he wasn't. Had he been,I wouldn't have mentioned it at the time. Maybe,just to admire it. 

You've got me into trouble now.

Mr Athy,if you're reading this, I would very much like to see you 'Trojan' jumper.

Not quite the weather for woolly jumpers at the moment! Yes, Mrs. Athy kindly knitted me a jumper with the 'Trojan' logo design (as per the Trojan record label) but not the name. She also embroidered a sweat-shirt with the Gardner logo for me.

I do have a selection of T-shirts which have the logos of various fondly-remembered record labels of the past - including Studio One, Chess, Ace, Goldwax and indeed Trojan, just as for example a motor-bike enthusiast may sport a Norton or Triumph T-shirt. People are entitled to see such garments as naff if they so wish; I don't.

Back on topic: the OP, whose name I am not going to attempt to spell at this early hour of the day, could do worse than approach Mel Davis, who builds shells of a high standard and who is generally willing to take on unusual or challenging designs. Yes, I'm biased, as he built our boat 11 years ago.

[Tuscan]

"Oh and my last point is the 22hp Kelvin if started when the batteries are flat, will hardly rev at all for five minutes or so as the alternator fully loads the engine! "

This is a very good point on our RN we have the same effect. I have had a switch put in the back cabin which disconnects the alternator should I need the extra oomph.

[Athy]

3 minutes ago, Tuscan said:

"Oh and my last point is the 22hp Kelvin if started when the batteries are flat, will hardly rev at all for five minutes or so as the alternator fully loads the engine! "

This is a very good point on our RN we have the same effect. I have had a switch put in the back cabin which disconnects the alternator should I need the extra oomph.

Our engine, a Gardner 2LW, also will not deliver full power until it's been running for several minutes. I have always put this down to its needing to warm up before it's put into gear. What exactly is meant by the alternator fully loading the engine?

[cuthound]

56 minutes ago, Athy said:

Our engine, a Gardner 2LW, also will not deliver full power until it's been running for several minutes. I have always put this down to its needing to warm up before it's put into gear. What exactly is meant by the alternator fully loading the engine?

When a battery is flat it will, provided the alternator can supply it, take a huge amount of current, hundreds of amps even for a relatively small battery. The more amps the alternator has to deliver, the more difficult it is to turn, hence the more power needed to turn it.

If the engine has a low power rating, its output will be mainly taken up driving the alternator,  leaving less power available to drive the boat.

To avoid this problem it is best to use a modern relatively high powered engine, such as a Beta 43 rather than an asthmatic old one 

[Athy]

Thanks for the explanation, which is so informative that I will even forgive you for the last sentence.

[MtB]

Yes people often don't realise the electricity from an alternator is not free. The alternator pulley resists being turned according to the electrical load on it, and the effort to turn it has to be paid for in diesel. Lets run some numbers.

When my alternator is delivering 45A at 26v just after starting the engine, that is 45V x 26A= 1170W. This is enough to stop the engine revs rising above about 200rpm.

1170W converted to HP is however is 1170 / 746 = 1.6hp. So if we assume an alternator efficiency of say 80%, this means my engine is only producing 2hp at this balance point where full throttle won't make the engine spin any faster than the 200rpm.

This surprises me given it is a 22hp engine at 750rpm. Given the torque curve is roughly straight and flat, 200rpm ought to equate to 5.8hp. So I must conclude power output when stone cold IS substantially reduced. To 2hp in fact! This must be due to losses caused by thick oil, and other minor loads on the engine like the oil and water pumps. Or more likely possibly poor and incomplete combustion in a cold combustion chamber. Surprising figure though. Can anyone spot an error in my figures?

Anyway I was getting off the point. The 2hp my alternator is drawing at this point is being supplied by burning diesel. Given that a boat cruising at a steady 3mph typically uses about 6hp for this and burns a litre an hour, 2hp is probably using about 1/3 of a litre an hour just to charge my battery. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Alan de Enfield]

20 hours ago, Ampen Spekersohn said:

That was the other point I was going to make. A fully restored JP2 fetches around £12k. A JP3 is around £9k! That three grand would go along way towards the boat fitout.

On that basis go for a 'real' engine (Kubota or Yanmar for example) and save £7000 - that'll go a long way towards the fit-out.

[mrsmelly]

23 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

C'mon, you're just making excuses to spend two whole days in The Wharf pub aren't you!

Just seen this and it reminds me to ask.............Is it any good at the moment? I stopped going there about 6/7 years ago as it became so bad with loud bigscreen tvs etc and crap beer!!

[MtB]

On 10/07/2017 at 10:21, mrsmelly said:

Just seen this and it reminds me to ask.............Is it any good at the moment? I stopped going there about 6/7 years ago as it became so bad with loud bigscreen tvs etc and crap beer!!

 

I've had a few truly awful meals in there and agree about the beer. I too stopped going in but then a couple of years ago went in with low expectations and had quite a reasonable sunday lunch and passable pint of bitter. 

They seem to put so much effort into all the peripheral services for boaters and vanners like launderette etc, they've forgotten their core business is flogging beer. 

[Nightwatch]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

Not quite the weather for woolly jumpers at the moment! Yes, Mrs. Athy kindly knitted me a jumper with the 'Trojan' logo design (as per the Trojan record label) but not the name. She also embroidered a sweat-shirt with the Gardner logo for me.

I do have a selection of T-shirts which have the logos of various fondly-remembered record labels of the past - including Studio One, Chess, Ace, Goldwax and indeed Trojan, just as for example a motor-bike enthusiast may sport a Norton or Triumph T-shirt. People are entitled to see such garments as naff if they so wish; I don't.

Mike. Please accept my apologies. I know you're not a naff person. MtB led me and I duly followed. I shouldn't have.

Friends of ours,many many moons ago had sweat shirts with their boats name and an image of a Narrow Boat embroidered on the breast. They looked nice, but not for me. For one thing, if you're in the pub, unsavoury characters know you're not on the boat.

Are we still on for later this week? Temperatures are dropping, possible jumper weather.