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How do I find a good boat builder?


Lady Muck

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1 hour ago, Ampen Spekersohn said:

Exactly. Obviously, their main business is heating oil. Which conveniently brings me to my next big design dilemma. I would really like the new boat to be gas-free. I accept it has its advantages, particularly for cooking, but I don't like the stuff. It's potentially dangerous and it's getting very expensive. If I can get my diesel at a sensible price, it makes sense to use it for all my energy needs. 

So I've been looking at diesel-fired ranges, such as the Heritage. The distributors assure me it can run successfully on red diesel, as long as higher pressure is supplied to the burners. A range like this would do all the cooking, as well as hot water and heating. Does anyone have any real-world experience of these machines? Are they reliable? I like the look of Heritage because it's well insulated (not too much excess heat in summer) and fast to cooking temperature. But are they noisy? If this can be made to work successfully, it eliminates the need for gas bottles and will free up the gas locker for other storage too. The cost of a Heritage is not much more than a Hurricane plus a decent gas cooker.

My plan is to install a boiling water tap which will take care of the urgent early morning cuppa.

The other line of thinking is to (reluctantly) revert to a gas cooker plus a Hurricane for heating, which is apparently more reliable on red diesel than other makes.

Input welcomed!

My input. I fitted a new shell a few years ago and for some daft reason was going to be gas free until I was advised by Barrie Morse who oversaw the build to put gas in. Thank god I listened. Gas free boats are always cheaper secondhand as their appeal is very limited. Gas cookers are instant and very very cheap to run and very very very safe. Go gas free if you must but it makes as much sense as a composting bog and that is absolutely no sense.

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We are very happy to be gas free, inbuild deisel generator in the gas locker. Makes choosing domestic appliances easier and cheaper. Don't have a composting bog though.

if a new build good idea to have two forms of heating so we have a deisel bubble with back boiler plus wabesco appreciate all these things depend on your budget.

Edited by Tuscan
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3 hours ago, Ampen Spekersohn said:

This is one of the reasons I'm veering towards the JP3 - to give a bit of surplus for power generation, battery charging, etc. I wouldn't want to find that I'm heading up a river and then slow to a crawl because her ladyship is using the microwave!

I fully accept that generated power is not free. In fact this is the reason I will go for a fuel tank of at least 600L capacity - to enable a direct delivery of red from Boiler Juice - currently at around 50p/L with no 60/40 split, instead of the scary prices demanded by many marinas. At least at that price, it will cause less angst to use a few 'luxury' appliances!

 

So you have admitted on a public forum that you intend to buy red diesel for marine propulsion without making the required declaration? :ninja:

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Just now, BruceinSanity said:

So you have admitted on a public forum that you intend to buy red diesel for marine propulsion without making the required declaration? :ninja:

Of course not! That tank would be purely for heating, power generation and cooking. The other 25L barrel would be for propulsion! ;)

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2 hours ago, Ampen Spekersohn said:

Hurricane for heating, which is apparently more reliable on red diesel than other makes.

Some of us have had such problems with reliability issues with the Hurricane, especially the compressor, that we've had it taken out and replaced with a Webasto. Brilliant design, less than brilliant build quality :wacko:

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9 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

So you have admitted on a public forum that you intend to buy red diesel for marine propulsion without making the required declaration? :ninja:

Damm bad form - fraud and tax-evasion at its worse - keel haul the offender.

The only way I get red-diesel (apart from for the boat) is by making an 'agricultural declaration' that it is used for Tractors, mowers and the 'digger'.

How can you get 500 / 1000 litres delivered to your boat without making some declaration ?

11 minutes ago, Ampen Spekersohn said:

Of course not! That tank would be purely for heating, power generation and cooking. The other 25L barrel would be for propulsion! ;)

But you still need to make a declaration to that effect (ie 100% domestic)

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I have telephoned Boiler Juice. Their operative told me that they don't sell much red diesel compared with domestic heating oil and so she wasn't very familiar with the procedure, but she did say:

- suppliers would not deliver directly on to a boat; they would deliver to a waterside tank.

- it would be the supplier's business to levy any duty: Boiler Juice themselves did not get involved in this.

That's all she could tell me, I'm afraid.

I wonder if any marinas and boatyards get their diesel from BJ. If so, they might be able to explain how (or if) the system works.

 

And finally...I hope that any suggestions of fraud or intent to commit fraud were tongue-in-cheek. I think they were.

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7 minutes ago, Athy said:

I have telephoned Boiler Juice. Their operative told me that they don't sell much red diesel compared with domestic heating oil and so she wasn't very familiar with the procedure, but she did say:

- suppliers would not deliver directly on to a boat; they would deliver to a waterside tank.

- it would be the supplier's business to levy any duty: Boiler Juice themselves did not get involved in this.

That's all she could tell me, I'm afraid.

I wonder if any marinas and boatyards get their diesel from BJ. If so, they might be able to explain how (or if) the system works.

 

And finally...I hope that any suggestions of fraud or intent to commit fraud were tongue-in-cheek. I think they were.

I spoke to one of the oil delivery guys the other day - primarily to find out what inlet diameter would be required. (1.5", btw). He said they regularly deliver to various boats and the only stipulation he made, was that they hand you the hose when over the water. That way, if you cause an oil spill in the water, it's your fault. Point to bear in mind. He even suggested getting one of those 500/1000L framed tanks dropped in the well deck.

The thing is, this fuel starts off at a base price well below marina fuel - now typically between 75p and £1 per litre. The duty is added on to that price (as a percentage, I believe). So even if you did an honest declaration of the usual 60/40 and paid the levy, you would still be getting your base fuel at 25-50p/L cheaper. On 500L, that's a saving of £125 to £250, just on the base price. You would then save a corresponding amount, due to a reduced amount of duty. So this really is worth thinking about.

The absurd thing about this duty levy, is that if you have the fuel dispensed into cans, there is no question of a duty split. The whole thing is daft. Even HMRC admits that it costs more to collect the money than they make. With luck, this will be disbanded when we leave the EU, as it was only brought in to keep us in line with Europe.

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9 hours ago, Athy said:

They are a company which sees to act as a sort of umbrella organisation or agent for many regional oil suppliers. When we place an order with them, they search for the local supplier who offers the cheapest price on that day - so our oil may be delivered to our house by any one of three different companies. In addition, if several orders are placed in the same area - on the same tanker run, I suppose - they often apply a further price reduction. But, as noted above, their minimum order is for 500 litres. They WILL deliver less in an emergency but the cost per litre is much higher. We've used them ever since our first Rayburn was installed nigh on ten years ago.

We have domestic oil fired heating. I find that a phone call to one of our local suppliers always results in a price equal to or lower than boilerjuice's online quote.

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

We have domestic oil fired heating. I find that a phone call to one of our local suppliers always results in a price equal to or lower than boilerjuice's online quote.

A Boiler Juice price is always a good device for duffing up your local supplier! ;)

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12 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes people often don't realise the electricity from an alternator is not free. The alternator pulley resists being turned according to the electrical load on it, and the effort to turn it has to be paid for in diesel. Lets run some numbers.

When my alternator is delivering 45A at 26v just after starting the engine, that is 45V x 26A= 1170W. This is enough to stop the engine revs rising above about 200rpm.

1170W converted to HP is however is 1170 / 746 = 1.6hp. So if we assume an alternator efficiency of say 80%, this means my engine is only producing 2hp at this balance point where full throttle won't make the engine spin any faster than the 200rpm.

This surprises me given it is a 22hp engine at 750rpm. Given the torque curve is roughly straight and flat, 200rpm ought to equate to 5.8hp. So I must conclude power output when stone cold IS substantially reduced. To 2hp in fact! This must be due to losses caused by thick oil, and other minor loads on the engine like the oil and water pumps. Or more likely possibly poor and incomplete combustion in a cold combustion chamber. Surprising figure though. Can anyone spot an error in my figures?

Anyway I was getting off the point. The 2hp my alternator is drawing at this point is being supplied by burning diesel. Given that a boat cruising at a steady 3mph typically uses about 6hp for this and burns a litre an hour, 2hp is probably using about 1/3 of a litre an hour just to charge my battery. 

I would say 50% efficiency would be nearer the mark.

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  • 6 months later...
On 29/12/2016 at 13:35, stegra said:

Hi Everyone

 

I intend to order a new shell as soon as possible. I've read through this and other threads and compiled a list of potential builders, also eliminated a few. Some of my requirements are a little unusual, hence my hope for some advice on finding a suitable builder. I'm aware that some of my plans might be a bit contentious. I currently live in Bristol and intend the boat to be a live-aboard on K&A / River Avon, most likely a marina. It's clear that i need to consider builders in the north and that's not an issue. I hope to be starting the fit out by the end of summer 2017 at the latest so lead time is a factor. I'll list what I'm hoping to achieve and hopefully you can help me with some advice:

 

Shell to be 45' to 50' long, 12' max wide (10' min).

It will be electric drive so no need for engine room, mountings, diesel tank, cooling tanks etc. but might need battery compartment fabricating.

The shape is still debatable. A 'wide' narrowboat is acceptable to me but I'm happy to pay extra for something more pleasing to the eye although I would not like a wheelhouse.

I'd quite like to raise the gunwales a few inches above the norm and have near-vertical cabin sides, but that's just a preference.

 

So the builder ideally will:

 

be able and willing to build up to 12' wide

be able to do the build reasonably soon

be willing to deviate from their standard designs

be willing to create something that might not be to their personal taste

have a near risk-free payment plan

possibly have on-site space to rent for the fit-out. This depends on where might be available in the south, but that's for another thread.

 

I appreciate any advice you can offer including any pitfalls to avoid.

 

Thank you

avoid paying to build a boat with vertical hull and cabin sides:  just weld six shipping containers together,, this will be quite a bit cheaper.

Edited by LadyG
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4 hours ago, carlt said:

Nice to see LadyMuck's name pop up again after a year's absence though.

Yes true. I think she through her teddy out the pram a while ago which did surprise me cos originaly she was a Yorkshire lass but I suppose going daarrnn ssaaarfff to live in the big slum has taken its toll. Shame innitt she did some good posting.

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  • 9 months later...

Hi my first and only boat purchase was a Johnathon Wilson sail away from an agent, narrowboat, fantastic boat pretty looking I often get comments on its  appearance swims well I was lucky I discovered this brand very early on , no problems at all , did meet Johnathon once I told him how pleased about the boat 

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11 hours ago, Snakezilla said:

Hi my first and only boat purchase was a Johnathon Wilson sail away from an agent, narrowboat, fantastic boat pretty looking I often get comments on its  appearance swims well I was lucky I discovered this brand very early on , no problems at all , did meet Johnathon once I told him how pleased about the boat 


So are both these posts about the same boat / builder?
 

On 22/11/2018 at 23:57, Snakezilla said:

Hi my boat is 8 years old and I’ve never liked the gold colour windows,boat builder would not give me chrome,another story ,so I’m changing them to chrome , is it worth having double glazed as I have single at the moment I’m interested in the colour mainly as I have 9 inc port holes and cost a fortune to buy , have you changed from single to double and really noticed difference I’m going with Caldwell’s  thanks 


Surely wanting to change 8 year old windows isn't indicating your total satisfaction with it?

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