New fuel problems ahead.... ?

[Nickhlx]

I understand that the composition of fuel (red diesel) is to change in the next year or two to contain more ( much more ?) biofuel .... and being more hygroscopic is going to cause boaters with a slower consumption, e.g. over the winter months (and car manufacturers with cars sitting in fields for months with half a gallon in the tank !) more problems with water in the fuel, damaged injector pumps etc... I am sure (!) that the industry is working hard to arrive at what the level should be and the associated problems it will bring e.g. owners of older, less tolerant engines with fuel system components unable to tolerate higher levels of Biofuel in the mix.... and hopefully ways around the problems....

 

Can anyone add any more to where the thoughts are at the moment as to what we are going to be dished up with ?

 

Thanks

 

Nick

[Smelly]

I don't know about vintage engines... Our Isuzy warranty seemed somewhat sketchy around bio fuels and absolutely refuted any biocides.

 

Probably a good job it'd expired by the time we caught diesel bug...

 

I reckon Marine16 will make a killing and as a happy customer I will contribute both in legal tender and shoddy puns

[Geoff]

Its not just adding bio fuel, the suphur in the diesel is to be lowered to 10ppm in line with road fuel.

Not a problem with newer engines but there are warnings about the injectors/ fuel pump etc on older engines.

I've got a Lister SR2 any advice from the engine Gurus appreciated

 

Geoff

[alan_fincher]

I understand that the composition of fuel (red diesel) is to change in the next year or two to contain more ( much more ?) biofuel .... and being more hygroscopic is going to cause boaters with a slower consumption, e.g. over the winter months (and car manufacturers with cars sitting in fields for months with half a gallon in the tank !) more problems with water in the fuel, damaged injector pumps etc... I am sure (!) that the industry is working hard to arrive at what the level should be and the associated problems it will bring e.g. owners of older, less tolerant engines with fuel system components unable to tolerate higher levels of Biofuel in the mix.... and hopefully ways around the problems....

 

Can anyone add any more to where the thoughts are at the moment as to what we are going to be dished up with ?

Nick,

 

Do you have a web based source for this information ?

 

A quick "Google" doesn't find anything obvious for me, (but I didn't spend an age looking...)

 

Of course many companies have been marketing a ULS (ultra low sulphur) version of dyed gas oil, ("red"), for some time, which I have always assumes differs little in sulphur content from "road diesel", ("ULSD"). Unlikely though that this is what many canal outlets sell so far. Don't know whether (current) ULS "red" also has the extra biofuel you refer to, though ?

 

At least the sulphur content bit may keep some of the Eber/ikuni/Webasto owners happier, I suppose.

[mayalld]

I understand that the composition of fuel (red diesel) is to change in the next year or two to contain more ( much more ?) biofuel .... and being more hygroscopic is going to cause boaters with a slower consumption, e.g. over the winter months (and car manufacturers with cars sitting in fields for months with half a gallon in the tank !) more problems with water in the fuel, damaged injector pumps etc... I am sure (!) that the industry is working hard to arrive at what the level should be and the associated problems it will bring e.g. owners of older, less tolerant engines with fuel system components unable to tolerate higher levels of Biofuel in the mix.... and hopefully ways around the problems....

 

Can anyone add any more to where the thoughts are at the moment as to what we are going to be dished up with ?

 

Thanks

 

Nick

 

Actually, being more hygroscopic may be a good thing.

 

The problem that we have at present is that water gets into diesel, and remains as a separate water layer, and we all buy potions to help emulsify it.

 

If the diesel was more hygroscopic, then it will absorb more water into the diesel before a water layer forms.

[stickleback]

And how will it affect the operation of something like a Mikuni heating system??!!

[GRPCruiserman]

I have a simple, but no doubt controversial idea:

 

Rip out the diesel engine, fit a petrol inboard and convert it to LPG. 40p per litre again anyone?

 

This has been done already by a certain Lake Warden organisation who in the 80s/90s removed their boats' original petrol engines and fitted diesel, but with the increase in fuel costs have now removed the diesels and re-fitted the original 1970s petrol engines which are now run on LPG.

 

This is also very much more environmentally friendly as any petrol spillages (without LPG conversion, obviously) on to the canal quickly evaporate and do not harm wildlife, water foliage, etc, like diesel does.

 

I know of at least one petrol driven narrow boat, and it's VERY quiet and smooth. Plus all the small Springers with their petrol outboards and GRP Cruisers.

 

Just a thought.

[Naughty Cal]

I dont know if that will catch on you know.

 

Not everyone wants to sail around in a bomb

[Nickhlx]

I dont know if that will catch on you know.

 

Not everyone wants to sail around in a bomb

 

 

But gas is already on board on nearly all narrowboats and its not too common an occurrence for a boat to have gas explosions - you could always fit gas detectors and purge fans to be used before starting....

 

On the other hand if too many people did it, they would tax gas for propulsion...

 

Nick

[tom_c]

you could fit a petrol paraffin engine, we are fitting a kelvin F4 to a wooden tug soon, there are some nice vintage petrol or petrol paraffin engines around and they also tend to be cheaper than a vintage diesel, this is a parsons D4M petrol paraffin engine it is about 15HP @1500rpm

[LEO]

Its not just adding bio fuel, the suphur in the diesel is to be lowered to 10ppm in line with road fuel.

Not a problem with newer engines but there are warnings about the injectors/ fuel pump etc on older engines.

I've got a Lister SR2 any advice from the engine Gurus appreciated

 

Geoff

 

Hi,

 

I have been following this 'Low sulphur' threat for a few years regarding possible damage to injectors and fuel pumps in vintage engines - it would seem the problems can be overcome by adding engine oil to the diesel to achieve a low percentage mix, which will achieve the necessary lubrication.

 

Leo.

[Geoff]

Hi,

 

I have been following this 'Low sulphur' threat for a few years regarding possible damage to injectors and fuel pumps in vintage engines - it would seem the problems can be overcome by adding engine oil to the diesel to achieve a low percentage mix, which will achieve the necessary lubrication.

 

Leo.

 

Thanks Leo, at least thats a bit of good news.

Any idea what sort of amount?

[LEO]

Thanks Leo, at least thats a bit of good news.

Any idea what sort of amount?

 

Will have to hunt around for on another forum so it may take a few days - but it is a very low percentage IIRC.

 

Best of luck, what engine are you writing about?.

 

Leo.

[Geoff]

Best of luck, what engine are you writing about?.

 

Leo.

 

A barely run in Lister SR2

35 years old and 100 million hours!! (Approx )

[Mac of Cygnet]

I understand that the composition of fuel (red diesel) is to change in the next year or two to contain more ( much more ?) biofuel .... and being more hygroscopic is going to cause boaters with a slower consumption, e.g. over the winter months (and car manufacturers with cars sitting in fields for months with half a gallon in the tank !) more problems with water in the fuel, damaged injector pumps etc... I am sure (!) that the industry is working hard to arrive at what the level should be and the associated problems it will bring e.g. owners of older, less tolerant engines with fuel system components unable to tolerate higher levels of Biofuel in the mix.... and hopefully ways around the problems....

 

Can anyone add any more to where the thoughts are at the moment as to what we are going to be dished up with ?

 

Thanks

 

Nick

 

Is this all red diesel? An agricultural contractor friend informs me that a couple of his machines' warranties would be invalid if he used diesel with a biofuel content, and that his supplier will continue to supply non-bio diesel.

 

Mac

[nb Innisfree]

I get the impression from varying sources that refineries are gradually switching production over to ULS gas oil and phasing out high sulphur gas oil, so vintage engines will then need to add lubricating oil, problem easily dealt with there. If biodiesel proves a problem then I am sure an additive or gizmo will be marketed that deals with that, especially with the massive marine and agriculture market.

[Graham Davis]

A lot of diesel now contains about 5% Bio, anyway.

 

In the LR world it seems to be suggested that 2 Stroke Oil is a better additive in the low sulphur stuff.

[Nickhlx]

Is this all red diesel? An agricultural contractor friend informs me that a couple of his machines' warranties would be invalid if he used diesel with a biofuel content, and that his supplier will continue to supply non-bio diesel.

 

Mac

 

 

As far as I know ( and it's not very far) I believe it is applicable to all diesel and is being driven by our beloved EEC / EU ....

 

One suggestion I heard was that "Red", as we know it, may disappear and be replaced by "White - dyed red".

 

I also understood many supplies of white diesel contained up to 5% of Bio - the move is more towards up to 20%....

 

Nick

[nb Innisfree]

A lot of diesel now contains about 5% Bio, anyway.

 

In the LR world it seems to be suggested that 2 Stroke Oil is a better additive in the low sulphur stuff.

 

I heard hydraulic oil.

[billS]

I heard hydraulic oil.

 

 

What about coconut oil?

[nb Innisfree]

What about coconut oil?

 

Someone will be palmed off with it

[Swallowman]

Someone will be palmed off with it

 

:lol:

 

My nearly 60 year old AEC engined bus runs perfectly OK on "filling station" white diesel - shouldn't be a problem for newer marinised diesels.

[jelunga]

What about coconut oil?

 

Nuts to that

[Wrinkley]

My Gardner manual says 1% used engine oil to be added to paraffin/28 sec heating oil. But what about the duty? What about the duty on the 1% oil to the low sulfur Red? I bet 'they' will want it.

[GRPCruiserman]

My Gardner manual says 1% used engine oil to be added to paraffin/28 sec heating oil. But what about the duty? What about the duty on the 1% oil to the low sulfur Red? I bet 'they' will want it.

 

This is an interesting one as what about the duty on the 2% Two Stroke oil I've always had to put in two stroke engines I've had?

 

I think I have the answer: The oil is there for lubrication of the engine only, i.e. it performs no propulsion function or power to make the engine turn. The fact that it is burned away with the fuel is pretty irrelevant, and I believe the same to be true of the oil that you are proposing to add to your diesel.

 

You therefore are not duty bound to pay the fuel tax on the addative; although you'll have paid VAT on it, as you also do with fuel, when you bought it of course.