History books

[Chertsey]

One thing that has struck me is that there seems to be very little academic historical research in the areas that interest me - mainly the social history of canal boat life, and the social/economic history of canal carrying (as opposed to canal building). I've done my best to trawl the various academic databases with no results; I have asked historian colleagues, with the same outcome.

 

There is some good written history out there, but it seems almost entirely to be written by the enthusiast/gifted amateur (or in some cases of course not so gifted), and again, relatively little of it covers these areas. I'm not suggesting academic history is inherently 'better' - indeed, it would have to draw very much on accounts like those of Susan Woolfit and David Blagrove - but it is very surprising to me that not one single professional historian has thought it worth taking up as a field of research. Or am I wrong, and if so where can I find it?

 

In particular, I would like to read a history of the Grand Union company (other than The George and the Mary), and a biography of Leslie Morton. Does either exist?

[Guest User]

Have you tried contacting the London Canal Museum, in particular the work by the late Mike Stevens ? (CLICKY). IRRC he collated quite a bit of historical information, possibly more map-orientated than social history, but might be worth looking into ?

[alan_fincher]

Just don't bother with Tom Chaplin's "Narrow Boats"!

 

This is a book I have seen good things said about, and I recently picked up a cheap copy from a "book boat", because the pictures looked promising.

 

The text is a different matter, and as well as being pompous and patronizing, is repeatedly just plain wrong.

 

However there is at a picture of a boatman in a Bowler hat, allegedly, (although it looks for the world to me like a Trilby).

 

Apparently wide beam boats did also regularly work right up to Braunston.......

 

Disappointed (again)!

[carlt]

Leslie Morton wrote an autoiography called "The Long Wake" Isbn 7100 6038 6.

 

The intention, I understand, was to write it in two parts, the first telling of his life at sea, the second relating his experiences on the canals.

 

Sadly the second half didn't get written.

[Liam]

Leslie Morton wrote an autoiography called "The Long Wake" Isbn 7100 6038 6.

 

The intention, I understand, was to write it in two parts, the first telling of his life at sea, the second relating his experiences on the canals.

 

Sadly the second half didn't get written.

 

I've got the first book... must get round to reading it one day!

[Chertsey]

Leslie Morton wrote an autoiography called "The Long Wake" Isbn 7100 6038 6.

 

The intention, I understand, was to write it in two parts, the first telling of his life at sea, the second relating his experiences on the canals.

 

Sadly the second half didn't get written.

Yes, saw that in the thread from last year. Also apparently that there was a piece about him in Canal Boat last year. I will dig it out, but last year's mags are filed in a pile two foot high so I will leave it until I'm feeling a bit stronger. If anyone could tell me what month it was (prob Jul or Aug?) and if it's worth looking out? As it stands the best account I've got is from Bread Upon the Waters. Is there anything to improve on that?

[Liam]

There's the Willow Wren story, written by Alan Faulkner, the publishing was something to do with Waterways World I think?

 

I have a scanned in PDF version of this, if anybody wants to have a read of it but it is rather large!

[Derek R.]

One thing that has struck me is that there seems to be very little academic historical research in the areas that interest me - mainly the social history of canal boat life, and the social/economic history of canal carrying (as opposed to canal building). I've done my best to trawl the various academic databases with no results; I have asked historian colleagues, with the same outcome.

 

(snip)

 

In particular, I would like to read a history of the Grand Union company (other than The George and the Mary), and a biography of Leslie Morton. Does either exist?

 

 

The latter may be well supplied by Alan Faulkner's 'Grand Junction Canal' ISBN 0-9517923-1-8, (can't help with Lesley Morton) Anything by Charles Hadfield or Edward Paget-Tomlinson.

For the social side; 'The Waterways of Britain, a Social Panorama', by D.D. Gladwin ISBN 0-7134- 3159-8. Also by Gladwin, 'The Canals of Britain', ISBN 0-7134-0492-2, and 'An Illustrated History of British Waterways' (not the company) Gladwin again, ISBN 0-904978-28-1. The latter I have just picked up for £3 at a Railway Centre (not that it helps you, but they do pop up).

We must not forget L.T.C. Rolt either, his 'Landscape With Canals', being part two of his Autobiography is very good (as are the other two parts, 1 and 3). Rolt especially, but Gladwin also are very readable, and keep the interest.

I once read Aickman's 'The River Runs Uphill' and I doubt I will read it a second time. It comes over as a very 'guarded' piece of writing, somewhat dry and lifeless.

 

As to where you might get them - Faulkner's is in print, about £17.50 hardback, the others I would suggest trawling the internet - try Abe books as a starting point, Amazon even, or even Ebay.

 

Derek

[Chertsey]

The latter may be well supplied by Alan Faulkner's 'Grand Junction Canal' ISBN 0-9517923-1-8, (can't help with Lesley Morton) Anything by Charles Hadfield or Edward Paget-Tomlinson.

For the social side; 'The Waterways of Britain, a Social Panorama', by D.D. Gladwin ISBN 0-7134- 3159-8. Also by Gladwin, 'The Canals of Britain', ISBN 0-7134-0492-2, and 'An Illustrated History of British Waterways' (not the company) Gladwin again, ISBN 0-904978-28-1. The latter I have just picked up for £3 at a Railway Centre (not that it helps you, but they do pop up).

We must not forget L.T.C. Rolt either, his 'Landscape With Canals', being part two of his Autobiography is very good (as are the other two parts, 1 and 3). Rolt especially, but Gladwin also are very readable, and keep the interest.

I once read Aickman's 'The River Runs Uphill' and I doubt I will read it a second time. It comes over as a very 'guarded' piece of writing, somewhat dry and lifeless.

 

As to where you might get them - Faulkner's is in print, about £17.50 hardback, the others I would suggest trawling the internet - try Abe books as a starting point, Amazon even, or even Ebay.

 

Derek

Thank you, some there I didn't know about - I'll have a trawl around and see what I can find. Ditto the Faulkner Liam; I've got most of those little ones but not Willow Wren - is it one of them?

[Liam]

This is the front cover of it...

 

 

I have just checked the PDF file that I created and it's 104mb!

[mykaskin]

One thing that has struck me is that there seems to be very little academic historical research in the areas that interest me - mainly the social history of canal boat life, and the social/economic history of canal carrying (as opposed to canal building). I've done my best to trawl the various academic databases with no results; I have asked historian colleagues, with the same outcome.

 

There is some good written history out there, but it seems almost entirely to be written by the enthusiast/gifted amateur (or in some cases of course not so gifted), and again, relatively little of it covers these areas. I'm not suggesting academic history is inherently 'better' - indeed, it would have to draw very much on accounts like those of Susan Woolfit and David Blagrove - but it is very surprising to me that not one single professional historian has thought it worth taking up as a field of research. Or am I wrong, and if so where can I find it?

 

In particular, I would like to read a history of the Grand Union company (other than The George and the Mary), and a biography of Leslie Morton. Does either exist?

 

Have you seen "Tales from the Old Inland Waterways" by Euan Corrie - ISBN 0-7153-2294-X

 

Lots of good stories by the people who were there. Some pretty pictures, and free with subscription to Waterways World.

 

Mike

[furnessvale]

One thing that has struck me is that there seems to be very little academic historical research in the areas that interest me - mainly the social history of canal boat life, and the social/economic history of canal carrying (as opposed to canal building). I've done my best to trawl the various academic databases with no results; I have asked historian colleagues, with the same outcome.

 

"The Canal Boatmen" by Harry Hanson is quite a weighty tome, written as a thesis for a MA degree.

ISBN 0 7190 0575 2

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[soldthehouse]

Narrow boats at work, Michael E Ware ISBN 0 86190 144 4 loads of photos and plenty of reading too....

Edited October 14, 2009 by soldthehouse

[Chertsey]

Have you seen "Tales from the Old Inland Waterways" by Euan Corrie - ISBN 0-7153-2294-X

 

Lots of good stories by the people who were there. Some pretty pictures, and free with subscription to Waterways World.

 

Mike

Yes, got that one.

 

Narrow boats at work, Michael E Ware ISBN 0 86190 144 4 loads of photos and plenty of reading too....

And that one

 

"The Canal Boatmen" by Harry Hanson is quite a weighty tome, written as a thesis for a MA degree.

ISBN 0 7190 0575 2

 

George ex nb Alton retired

That sounds promising. Doesn't sound like it'd still be in print though... I shall add it to the trawl and see. Bing able to find second hand books anywhere in the world makes the whole internet worthwhile, doesn't it.

 

Liam: I'm tempted by your PDF but I will trawl first. Definitely not got it and would want to read that one.

 

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I shall report back.

Edited October 15, 2009 by WarriorWoman

[Pluto]

One thing that has struck me is that there seems to be very little academic historical research in the areas that interest me - mainly the social history of canal boat life, and the social/economic history of canal carrying (as opposed to canal building). I've done my best to trawl the various academic databases with no results; I have asked historian colleagues, with the same outcome.

The problem for academic researchers is the relative lack of documentary evidence, and to interpret fully those sources which have survived needs wide experience of canal operation, something which most academics lack. Consequently, they have stuck to the business history of canal companies, for which there is much more information and which fit into the academic framework.

 

To return to your query. One area where there will be interesting material is in sound archives. I know of quite a few recorded interviews with canal workers, and few of them have ever been published, though some have been transcribed. For the L&LC I also have transcripts of interviews for a BBC radio programme on the canal which was recorded in 1939. These came from the canal co's correspondence files rather than the BBC, but radio programmes could be worth following up. I also have transcripts of interviews for a book, never published, by the son of a canal carrier, which are in a local museum. A book on how the L&LC operated is down on my to-do list, but time and money are limited when there are so many other interesting things to do, such as trying to earn a living from industrial and canal history. Thanks to the Olympics and BW's situation, paid work, which supports the less financially beneficial but important historically things I do, has been a bit limited recently.

[Derek R.]

Just to endorse the fact that there is history written down that will never get into print. In '83 we were tied up at Keadby waiting for fog to lift, and spent a day in the local Library (quite near the lock). In there was a hand typed manuscript several hundred pages long, it was a biography telling the story of a Yorkshire Keelman and his life on the Keel boats and the Trent in general. I didn't get to read it all, but I'll wager there is a lot of detailed history that IS written down, and has never been in print.

 

Derek

[FadeToScarlet]

One thing that has struck me is that there seems to be very little academic historical research in the areas that interest me - mainly the social history of canal boat life, and the social/economic history of canal carrying (as opposed to canal building). I've done my best to trawl the various academic databases with no results; I have asked historian colleagues, with the same outcome.

 

There is some good written history out there, but it seems almost entirely to be written by the enthusiast/gifted amateur (or in some cases of course not so gifted), and again, relatively little of it covers these areas. I'm not suggesting academic history is inherently 'better' - indeed, it would have to draw very much on accounts like those of Susan Woolfit and David Blagrove - but it is very surprising to me that not one single professional historian has thought it worth taking up as a field of research. Or am I wrong, and if so where can I find it?

 

In particular, I would like to read a history of the Grand Union company (other than The George and the Mary), and a biography of Leslie Morton. Does either exist?

 

I'd do an MA on a canal subject, happily- social history of canal dwelling, 1750(ish)- Now.

 

But fully funded? Unlikely

 

 

Edited to add:

 

I've got a feeling that the canals are like the railways, but more so, in terms of their historiography. There's a massive amount of specialist works on minutiae and details- which is all very well and good, and I won't criticise it. It's all very well knowing that this particular motor was paired with this butty from 1943-45, excepting these months, or that National 45678 was put in big woolwich X for the initial three years. Ditto knowing that the first train to so-and-so left on 23rd March 1842, and that this particular engine did this, that and the other.

 

And, at the other extreme, there's economic history- the canals contributed X% to England's GDP between 1800-1850, etc. etc.

 

But, as WW says, there's no academic social history summarising and taking an overview of what thigns were like. There's a few for the railways- Jack Simmons many works, Freeman and a few others- and one or two for the canals, but nothing truly academic.

Edited October 15, 2009 by FadeToScarlet

[stewey]

Available from the Railway & Canal Society is Canal Boatmen's Missions by Wendy Freer and Gill Foster - Price £12.50 - ISBN 978 0 901461 53 7

 

Details here:

 

http://www.rchs.org.uk/trial/gwpf.php?wpag...canal%20boatmen

 

Stewey

[Richard Fairhurst]

I have a scanned in PDF version of this, if anybody wants to have a read of it but it is rather large!

Ahem. That's Alan Faulkner's copyright (and partly WW's copyright too, I suspect!).

[Chertsey]

Good point. But assuming it's out of print, what difference does it make materially to either party whether I buy a second hand copy or read Liam's? And whether I read Liam's as a PDF or he lends me the original?

 

(And where do Carl and Dave stand on copyright law?)

[David Schweizer]

One of the problems with academic research is that, because most Working Boat families could not read or write, there is very little contemporary writing on home life. Most of that which has been written, has been gleaned from conversations with people who worked the boats in the past.

 

The BBC conducted a series of interviews with working Boatmen in the 1960's, but most of this is locked away in their archives. Snippets appear between the songs on the BBC Album "Narrowboats" (issued in 1963), and the transcript of the interviews with Joe and Rose Skinner are available in the Book "Last of the Number Ones" together with a CD of the interviews.

 

When I was Studying at College, I wanted to write my Thesis on the Eductioanl needs of Boat Children, but this was 1972 and almost all the families that I knew from the 1960's had been displaced by road transport, so I tranferred my inteerest to researching the needs of Travelling Children instead.

 

There are still a lot of people around who worked, or were raised on Working boats, and probably someone should be interviewing them before it is too late. Every year at the Braunston gathering, I spend some time with ex-boat people who I knew from the 1960's and some of their stories are very enlightening. As children many of them had a very rough time.

[mayalld]

Good point. But assuming it's out of print, what difference does it make materially to either party whether I buy a second hand copy or read Liam's? And whether I read Liam's as a PDF or he lends me the original?

 

(And where do Carl and Dave stand on copyright law?)

 

You REALLY don't want to hear what I have to say about copyright, and frankly I really don't want to say it.

 

I spend a hell of a lot of my spare time wrestling with intractible copyright issues, and then have to count to ten so as not to kill some eejit trying to tell me its all wrong, having ignored most of the complex web of copyrights that do and don't exist in the material in question.

[Chertsey]

No you're right, I wouldn't want to draw you into a public debate about it and I didn't honestly expect you to be reading it seconds after I posted.

 

It just struck me as another of those areas where people often feel fairly sanguine about ignoring the law and in some cases - particularly out of print works - I can see why, although as an author myself (albeit not one that has ever got any royalties) I can see the other side too.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Good point. But assuming it's out of print

I have to admit I wasn't sure whether or not it was - so I went next door and found out.

 

As it happens it is out of print, but we do republish stuff - for example, we brought John Thorpe's Windlass In My Belt back into print last year. There's probably an argument that we could do the same with Willow Wren, either in print, or as a PDF. But part of the economics for this is pent-up demand, and if hooky PDFs are circulating halfway across the Internet, this doesn't work and Alan doesn't get paid. Which he deserves to be!

 

(And where do Carl and Dave stand on copyright law?)

I'm running away before that one gets started...

 

I do actually spend quite a lot of time looking into copyright matters with another (non-waterway) hat on. A lot of the current hysteria is caused by ridiculous maximalist views backed up by heavy-duty lawyers: the RIAA is the best-known example, but there are others, such as perhaps the Ordnance Survey. But, on the other hand, the Stallmanite "everything should be free" mentality is little better and generally advanced by those who don't create much of worth themselves.

[Tam & Di]

The BBC conducted a series of interviews with working Boatmen in the 1960's, but most of this is locked away in their archives. Snippets appear between the songs on the BBC Album "Narrowboats" (issued in 1963), and the transcript of the interviews with Joe and Rose Skinner are available in the Book "Last of the Number Ones" together with a CD of the interviews.

 

I've no idea where you might get a copy now, but in 1985 BBC Radio Stoke issued a boxed set of 5 double-sided audio cassettes of interviews with a vast number of boatmen, 25 minutes per side. It was titled "On the Cut" and compiled by BBC Local Radio.

 

I've not listened to it since about that time, but I recall it as being very good. It was marketed by Live Sounds in Crewe, but I doubt that they still exist.