Working locks

[Nine of Hearts]

Pondering my response, I thought, "I don't really give a damn, as long as I don't hit the cill". And then I realised that this can only happen going downhill, and it will always be your rudder that catches, as you'll always be facing away from the cill when descending. Next thought was, is there a way to add something to the back of the boat so that the boat won't cill? So I came up with this, the amazing anti-cilling rudder. Do you think it will catch on?

 

[mykaskin]

Of course the answers I have given would depend on the boat:

 

30ft Steel Cruiser with outdrive: hang in middle of lock going up or down (though towards bottom gates in both cases)

 

50ft Narrowboat: Hang back as close to bottom gates as possible - often with stern fender on gates going up. Going down often hold off gates slightly if not also doing the paddles

 

60ft Boat: On the gates both ways

 

71.5ft Boat: I have no choice in this one, it has to be on the gates or risk other more serious problems.

 

Wide locks: I usually hold the boat in a safe position with the engine unless I\'m also helping with the lock in which case I put the working boat against cill/gates, or use a centre rope on the others.

 

Look ma, no ropes:

<edited (several times) to fix link-thanks Alan>

 

...and how it should be done on the GU:

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

Edited July 2, 2009 by mykaskin

[RichardH]

This poll tends to back up my belief that ropes are not necessary in locks. However much of the published press suggests they should be.

[alan_fincher]

Of course the answers I have given would depend on the boat:

 

30ft Steel Cruiser with outdrive: hang in middle of lock going up or down (though towards bottom gates in both cases)

 

50ft Narrowboat: Hang back as close to bottom gates as possible - often with stern fender on gates going up. Going down often hold off gates slightly if not also doing the paddles

 

60ft Boat: On the gates both ways

 

71.5ft Boat: I have no choice in this one, it has to be on the gates or risk other more serious problems.

 

Wide locks: I usually hold the boat in a safe position with the engine unless I\'m also helping with the lock in which case I put the working boat against cill/gates, or use a centre rope on the others.

 

Actually I think Mike is pretty spot on.

 

My only proviso would be that his suggestions seem even more relevant to me on something like double locks with top gate paddles, whereas the poll explicitly stated narrow locks.

 

I think the provision, (or non provision) of top gate paddles probably has more influence on positioning decisions when going up than any other factor.

 

What Mike shows in his picture is fine with a sheeted up Royalty motor with it's bows 4 feet above the water, and is what I would do, but even the working boatmen wouldn't have tried it in an un-sheeted boat with a full load on.

 

I appreciate the advice is often to stay well forward in any lock when ascending, so unsurprisingly that seems to be landing as the most popular answer. However if we made a habit of that in Grand Union locks, then, even ignoring the ground paddles trying to shoot you from side to side, we could not whip gate paddles up smartly long before they are covered.

 

But with a 50 foot boat we can stay very well away from the ground paddle flows, and at least 20 feet from fully opened gate paddles. The boat virtually looks after itself with no ropes and no use of engine, and for making rapid progress when not sharing it's a no brainer.

 

Sorry Dave, but because I agree with Mike that the length of the boat being worked has a strong impact on best position, I actually think any results are fairly meaningless, if the lengths of the boats for each response given are an unknown.

 

 

Look ma, no ropes:

Youtube Clicky

 

The link doesn't work Mike.

 

Was

what you intended ?

[Nine of Hearts]

Sorry Dave, but because I agree with Mike that the length of the boat being worked has a strong impact on best position, I actually think any results are fairly meaningless, if the lengths of the boats for each response given are an unknown.

 

Also, it depends on whether you're single handing or not. I note that a massive percentage of people claim to use the engine to maintain position, but the number of people whose default position is against the gate (in either direction) is significantly lower. This means presumably, that those of you using the engine have someone else working the paddles. If I had someone to operate the engine, then no, I wouldn't use ropes then either. Who would?

Edited July 1, 2009 by Nine of Hearts

[ditchcrawler]

Ive voted twice now and suddenly the poll has vanished...im with carl and chris

Same here

[sociable_hermit]

I use a rope if single manning a wide lock, or sharing a wide lock (to hold our boat in place until the other one is in, assuming we're in first). Never use the ropes in a narrow lock - no point.

[NB Alnwick]

Sorry folks - in trying to merge two almost identical topics, I somehow managed to lose the poll altogether.

 

I must have merged the topics upside down and can only apologise for the odd result.

[mayalld]

Sorry folks - in trying to merge two almost identical topics, I somehow managed to lose the poll altogether.

 

I must have merged the topics upside down and can only apologise for the odd result.

 

Ooops!

 

It happens, and its only a fun poll. Nobody died or got elected to the house of commons.

 

Might try re-running the poll at a later date.

[bristol & argo]

I use a rope if single manning a wide lock, or sharing a wide lock (to hold our boat in place until the other one is in, assuming we're in first). Never use the ropes in a narrow lock - no point.

 

We quite often use ropes - thumb lines.....

 

Simon.

 

Edit to add answer to the original question,

On the balance beam if i'm not at the helm.......

Edited July 2, 2009 by bristol & argo

[FadeToScarlet]

Try stuffing the bow into the vee between the gate and the lock side, then putting into forward idle with the tiller pointing towards the lock side. The boat won't go far that way.

 

Richard

 

Good point, I'll try that. It does depend, though, on the balance beam as I don't want to get hung up.

 

It also won't work on a guillotine gate...

 

Appologies for the slight derailment, it's just something else to add to the mix. Putting a canal boat into a different sort of lock, which has different characteristics, needs a slightly different set of skills. For example, you really do need to rope the bow if you're facing an opening guillotine gate, as the flow is so fierce.

 

St. Neots lock is a special case, too; imagine a lock nearly twice the size of a GU double lock, with a huge guillotine gate. Then imagine the speed and force of that lock emptying if the guillotine gate is open by 12 inches, with hundreds of tons of water behind.....

 

You've effectively got a paddle that's 12 inches tall by 10 feet wide!

 

 

^^ About a third empty....

 

 

^^^It's pretty big- we're 50' long!

[mykaskin]

I use a rope if single manning a wide lock, or sharing a wide lock (to hold our boat in place until the other one is in, assuming we're in first). Never use the ropes in a narrow lock - no point.

 

I will often put the bow on the cill and then move the stern over with the engine and tiller to let the other boat in. If I'm on the left side then the prop walk holds it against the wall, and I then go to operate the lock leaving Victoria in ahead gear while the other boat comes alongside.

 

Going down you can use the bottom gate to hold the bow in position, and then either engine or rope or arm to hold the stern out of the way until the other is alongside.

 

On my own in wide locks I will often use a rope going down so I can drop the paddles when the lock is ready and still get back on the boat. I will then close the gate from the boat with a rope if the drop isn't too much. If anyone knows how to drop the bottom paddles whilst thumblining open the gate, I'm all ears!

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

[RLWP]

(snip)

On my own in wide locks I will often use a rope going down so I can drop the paddles when the lock is ready and still get back on the boat.

(snip)

Cheers,

 

Mike

 

I would probably take a loosely coiled rope with me and drop it on the floor. The boat can then wander around the lock to it's hearts content. I can always get to the boat when I need to because it's on the other end of the rope.

 

Richard

 

My intention here is not to hang the boat up on ropes that are too tight

[bristol & argo]

-snip-

 

On my own in wide locks I will often use a rope going down so I can drop the paddles when the lock is ready and still get back on the boat. I will then close the gate from the boat with a rope if the drop isn't too much. If anyone knows how to drop the bottom paddles whilst thumblining open the gate, I'm all ears!

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

 

I've watched Arundel using a remote control (blue polyprop rope to his gear controls) sothat he could thumbline from the opposite side!

 

Alternatively, only open the paddle one side, thumbline the gate open, then when you have started her out of the lock, climb the ladder to drop the paddle and re-embark at the lock tail.

 

Simon.

[mykaskin]

I would probably take a loosely coiled rope with me and drop it on the floor. The boat can then wander around the lock to it's hearts content. I can always get to the boat when I need to because it's on the other end of the rope.

That's what I do - it never gets tied to anything.

 

I've watched Arundel using a remote control (blue polyprop rope to his gear controls) sothat he could thumbline from the opposite side!

 

Alternatively, only open the paddle one side, thumbline the gate open, then when you have started her out of the lock, climb the ladder to drop the paddle and re-embark at the lock tail.

 

Simon.

 

I've also seen people use ropes to remotely drive the boat, but not got around to it myself. I've tried the jumping off once the boat is leaving trick - but how do you put the other side down? When not in a hurry (breakfast for example), I've lifted only the one paddle and dropped it on the way out. If you are lucky/quick/both you can close the gate behind but I would not recommend it! :-)

 

Mike

[jake_crew]

Operate the paddles slowly until you get the hang of how much draw there is.

 

EG Claydon locks on the S Oxford have a hell of a draw so that even with engine reverse you stand a good chance of clouting the top gate if your shore crew are too keen. This is due to the underwater flow pattern in the lock chamber pushing the boat forwards.

 

We use half of one paddle until the lock is half full, then open 'em up. It probably take 30s longer but doesn't knock the dinner off the cooker and onto the floor.

 

In a wide lock, similar idea. Use the paddle on the same side as the boat and hang back right at the bottom of the lock. With gentle flow, the water will bounce off the other wall and pin you in that bottom corner. A central rope ashore will help.

 

BUT DO PADDLES GENTLY

 

edit fot splellign

Edited July 2, 2009 by jake_crew

[carlt]

EG Claydon locks on the S Oxford have a hell of a draw so that even with engine reverse you stand a good chance of clouting the top gate if your shore crew are too keen. This is due to the underwater flow pattern in the lock chamber pushing the boat forwards.

Why use reverse at all, especially in a narrow lock?

 

If you place the stem against the front gate and leave the boat in forward gear then there will be no rushing forwards, however quickly you raise the paddles.

 

Hanging back, in any lock puts your stern gear at risk.

 

there's nothing to break, at the front.

Edited July 2, 2009 by carlt

[alan_fincher]

Why use reverse at all, especially in a narrow lock?

 

If you place the stem against the front gate and leave the boat in forward gear then there will be no rushing forwards, however quickly you raise the paddles.

 

Hanging back, in any lock puts your stern gear at risk.

 

there's nothing to break, at the front.

Except that on the Southern Oxford, as on many narrow canals now, the "rubbing board", (or whatever local custom calls them), fail to go right up over the gate to cover the balance beam, and there if often a danger of the stem post getting wedged between gate and beam, (often irrespective of whether a button fender is being used or not). Aylesbury arm also has lots of these buggers.

 

After finding I need to walk to the front of the boat at each and every lock to assess how "iffy" if looks, in those situations I quickly decide that holding back regardless often represents a better option.

 

A similar problem applies on many narrow canals when descending. Many have so many protruding bolts and other metalwork that it is not safe to let even an unfendered bow attempt to slide down the gate, (I seem to remember the W&B was bad in this respect last year, but may have the wrong canal).

 

Again easier to stay away in many cases, particularly as you can't see potential downhill issues with the lock full.

 

Even in GU locks riding the bow on the gates is not without issues. Gates have more than once been lifted out by caught boats ascending Braunston in the past, (presumably why many now have much extra unsightly rubbing board added), but we are increasingly seeing horribly unsightly constructions that attempt, (but don't always succeed), to stop stem posts getting caught under balance beams when 'going up'.

 

I know you can say the locks should still contain all the traditional design features intended to prevent these mishaps, but unfortunately they don't, so to be safe you need to be flexible in methods of working.

 

I genuinely believe there is nothing approaching a standard answer, even if you restrict yourself just to considering narrow canals.

Edited July 2, 2009 by alan_fincher

[PhilR]

I genuinely believe there is nothing approaching a standard answer, even if you restrict yourself just to considering narrow canals.

 

I agree 100% Alan.

 

But, if we just consider narrow locks, these were designed for 70 - 72 ft narrowboats and most of us today are boating in shorter boats when differing techniques might be safer. The important thing is to be aware of likely hazards like leaking gates, projecting bolts, masonry etc and knowing how to make allowances for them.

 

carlt suggested putting the bow against the top gates in forward gear. That is usually OK in shallow locks, but in locks with a rise greater than 7 or 8 feet the bow fender or stem post will probably be in contact with the cill or a knackered cill protector. This can often give a rough ride as the boat gets temporarily pinned down before rushing forward to make contact with the top gate/s.

 

I no longer use traditional rope covered bow and stern fenders. I personally think coiled tyres (coiled inside out) are much safer. I rather like the D shaped rubber inserts fitted to the stem posts on some Black Prince boats

 

Phil

[nb Innisfree]

I agree 100% Alan.

 

But, if we just consider narrow locks, these were designed for 70 - 72 ft narrowboats and most of us today are boating in shorter boats when differing techniques might be safer. The important thing is to be aware of likely hazards like leaking gates, projecting bolts, masonry etc and knowing how to make allowances for them.

 

carlt suggested putting the bow against the top gates in forward gear. That is usually OK in shallow locks, but in locks with a rise greater than 7 or 8 feet the bow fender or stem post will probably be in contact with the cill or a knackered cill protector. This can often give a rough ride as the boat gets temporarily pinned down before rushing forward to make contact with the top gate/s.

 

I no longer use traditional rope covered bow and stern fenders. I personally think coiled tyres (coiled inside out) are much safer. I rather like the D shaped rubber inserts fitted to the stem posts on some Black Prince boats

 

Phil

 

Only prob with BP boats is the rubber is set inside metal sides which get dented, better I think to have a U shaped rubber fitting round the stem giving all round protection, I had this for a while and it worked well. I am now looking for a new length, needs to be 39" long. Also agree with tyres turned inside out, not as aesthetic but far more practical and durable mine fits over rope fender. Have often thought that a HGV rubber suspension assister would make a good front/rear fender

[bristol & argo]

-snip-

carlt suggested putting the bow against the top gates in forward gear. That is usually OK in shallow locks, but in locks with a rise greater than 7 or 8 feet the bow fender or stem post will probably be in contact with the cill or a knackered cill protector. This can often give a rough ride as the boat gets temporarily pinned down before rushing forward to make contact with the top gate/s.

-snip

 

In that case your boat may be the wrong shape the stem post should curve smoothly round to the base plate so it can ride up and over.

I've seen a few modern boats with bits that stick out at the front of the base plate

 

 

Simon.

 

That's what I do - it never gets tied to anything.

 

 

 

I've also seen people use ropes to remotely drive the boat, but not got around to it myself. I've tried the jumping off once the boat is leaving trick - but how do you put the other side down? When not in a hurry (breakfast for example), I've lifted only the one paddle and dropped it on the way out. If you are lucky/quick/both you can close the gate behind but I would not recommend it! :-)

 

Mike

 

Ahh, yes, well you need a butty so you can get across the boats in the lock tail....

 

 

Simon.

[Chertsey]

It probably take 30s longer but doesn't knock the dinner off the cooker and onto the floor.

Not a problem if you're cooking your dinner on a proper stove with a fiddle rail. I would never leave anything unattended on the gas hob while under way, and especially not while locking. I take Mayalld's point about boats also being people's homes, but they're boat homes not house homes (if there was no difference what would be the point of having one?) and a few little changes of habit in putting things away etc saves so much strain on the nerves.

 

Just realised I'm confusing my threads - hope that makes sense.

Edited July 3, 2009 by WarriorWoman

[Chris Pink]

This is about wide as well as narrow locks?

 

I notice no-one has mentioned this technique going uphill which enables me to wind the paddles up pretty quickly without danger to the boat.

 

Uphill in a wide lock with one narrow boat I have the boat against the cill, take a single line from the bow aft (yes, to a bollard), one incomplete turn (so I can haul the rope in as the lock fills) and then forward to me at the paddle. This stops the boat flying across the lock as I have found the 'open the same paddle and it will pin on the side' advice fairly useless. The stern can then look after itself. If there's no bollard I take a rope forward to the beam or gate handrail but aft is definitely better as the boat wants to go forward with the water filling.

 

Bollards: the K and A locks have always had a bollard 10-15' back from the top gate, presumable for checking. Most of these have disappeared over time but a properly designed bollard in this position is well useful in a wide lock.

 

A loaded motor with the cratch and false cratch up will have normally no problem with water from the gate paddles.

 

Downhill I'm with Carl, tickover forward against bottom gate, no bow fender, with tiller string to keep the stern tucked in. To get out I then open the opposite gate, go down the ladder to the boat, reverse and pole over.

 

I nearly 'lost' the boat the other week - diagonally across the lock, 4 foot jump from the ladder to land on a 5" gunwhale no thanks - possibly tickover was not enough to keep it against the wall. Although by the time I found a big stick to poke it with it had settled itself back against the side.

[mykaskin]

Uphill in a wide lock with one narrow boat I have the boat against the cill, take a single line from the bow aft (yes, to a bollard), one incomplete turn (so I can haul the rope in as the lock fills) and then forward to me at the paddle. This stops the boat flying across the lock as I have found the 'open the same paddle and it will pin on the side' advice fairly useless. The stern can then look after itself. If there's no bollard I take a rope forward to the beam or gate handrail but aft is definitely better as the boat wants to go forward with the water filling.

 

To get to the bow line I have to walk over the planks, then I would have to usually throw the rope to the lock top, and walk back to where the ladder is. No thanks!

 

BTW - I also sit on the balance beams, unless they are wet!

 

Mike

[Tiny]

The locky told me that the 6 wide locks on the T&M coming up from Shardlow were designed for the off side top ground to be worked first to hold a boat on the towpath side coming up. This seemed to work well.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Tiny