Automatic bilge pump

[magpie patrick]

Hi Folks,

 

I've raised this in a different way before, so you may get a sense of deja vu, sorry, but this is a specific question that has not, as far as I can tell, been answered.

 

Problem: Ripple's bilges always have water in them, have since I bought her and probably since the first hirer took her out in 2000. Once water is in, the bilge pump outlet is too high to completely clear it. The water has come from dripping stern gland and some rain. Unless the semi trad stern is sheeted over, rain gets in because the design of the stern traps it and it has nowhere else to go. No lectures on this please, I've checked it out: good or bad it's a fact I have to live with.

 

The bilge pump has a switch for daily use and also a float switch to operate automatically. As far as I'm aware the float switch has never operated in anger, but it does sometimes operate if something causes the water in the bilge to slosh. This was once my saviour as the first warning I had of hanging the fender going down Marsden locks on the HNC was the bilge pump coming on.

 

Trouble is, it operates when we reverse off the pontoon at the marina: causing much consternation and rushing around with fairy liquid from the staff. I've offered to disconnect it, but they have declined this on the basis that the boat sinking would make more of a mess. The normal solution out on the canal, is to pump the bilge as this lowers the water far enough to stop the slosh triggering the pump, but I can't do that in the marina, obviously. Pumping just before the end of a trip doesn't work either, as more water accumulates while moored

 

So the question. Can I fit a switch which would isolate the pump until I'm out of the marina, or would this contravene the BSS requirements? If I can, what sort of switch should it be?

 

Advice much appreciated

 

Patrick

[dor]

Apart from anything else, the bilge pump should not cause any problem to people as it should (no make that 'must') not discharge any oily water into the canal. The engine bilge should be seperated from the main bilge, so only rain water and stern tube leakage will be pumped overboard.

 

In answer to your question, I don't think the BSS has any requirements for bilge pumps so you could just fit a switch in the feed to the pump.

[RobinJ]

The bilge pump has a switch for daily use and also a float switch to operate automatically. As far as I'm aware the float switch has never operated in anger, but it does sometimes operate if something causes the water in the bilge to slosh. This was once my saviour as the first warning I had of hanging the fender going down Marsden locks on the HNC was the bilge pump coming on.

 

Trouble is, it operates when we reverse off the pontoon at the marina: causing much consternation and rushing around with fairy liquid from the staff. I've offered to disconnect it, but they have declined this on the basis that the boat sinking would make more of a mess. The normal solution out on the canal, is to pump the bilge as this lowers the water far enough to stop the slosh triggering the pump, but I can't do that in the marina, obviously. Pumping just before the end of a trip doesn't work either, as more water accumulates while moored

 

So the question. Can I fit a switch which would isolate the pump until I'm out of the marina, or would this contravene the BSS requirements? If I can, what sort of switch should it be?

Most installations I have seen have a swtch that goes something like Manual-Off-Automatic.

I find it strange that a float switch has been fitted without a switch (I hope it at least has a fuse).

 

The automatic function of the bilge pump (through the float switch) should be supplied through a fused feed which bypasses the isolation switch, whereas the manual function s supplied from a switch which comes through the isolation switch (engine supply) or possibly from the domestic, both of which should be protected anyway.

 

How about repositioning or rotating the float switch, they tend to be placed near the stern gland, so reversing should throw the water away?

[Tony Brooks]

Hi Folks,

 

I've raised this in a different way before, so you may get a sense of deja vu, sorry, but this is a specific question that has not, as far as I can tell, been answered.

 

Problem: Ripple's bilges always have water in them, have since I bought her and probably since the first hirer took her out in 2000. Once water is in, the bilge pump outlet is too high to completely clear it. The water has come from dripping stern gland and some rain. Unless the semi trad stern is sheeted over, rain gets in because the design of the stern traps it and it has nowhere else to go. No lectures on this please, I've checked it out: good or bad it's a fact I have to live with.

 

The bilge pump has a switch for daily use and also a float switch to operate automatically. As far as I'm aware the float switch has never operated in anger, but it does sometimes operate if something causes the water in the bilge to slosh. This was once my saviour as the first warning I had of hanging the fender going down Marsden locks on the HNC was the bilge pump coming on.

 

Trouble is, it operates when we reverse off the pontoon at the marina: causing much consternation and rushing around with fairy liquid from the staff. I've offered to disconnect it, but they have declined this on the basis that the boat sinking would make more of a mess. The normal solution out on the canal, is to pump the bilge as this lowers the water far enough to stop the slosh triggering the pump, but I can't do that in the marina, obviously. Pumping just before the end of a trip doesn't work either, as more water accumulates while moored

 

So the question. Can I fit a switch which would isolate the pump until I'm out of the marina, or would this contravene the BSS requirements? If I can, what sort of switch should it be?

 

Advice much appreciated

 

Patrick

 

 

Sorry about this but the bilge pump is doing exactly what it is supposed to. The problem is:

 

1 - you have dirty bilges, so get in there and clean them so you can pump them into the canal.

 

2 - there is a problem with you engine drip tray allowing its contents to flow into the bilge. This is a BSS failure if the inspector finds it.

 

3. - the engine drip tray has been allowed to fill up so it overflows so clean it out and then do 1.

 

Once everything is clean put a hydrophobic (repels water) bilge blanket into the engine drip tray say 4 inches away forward of the rear "cross member" and change it after each engine service (about 40p form Wilton Chandlery branded products like pre-pack 3M silly money!). You will then be able to sponge the odd bit of water out of the back of the drip tray and pour it along the hedge line - there will be virtually no oil in it, but it would still rainbow if put in the cut.

 

If you want to carry on with oily bilges - and I hope you enjoy retrieving dropped tools etc - then identify the feed cable running to the bilge pump that is NOT switched and from high up and away from water cut it, extend it to another switch. Use this switch to isolate the float switch just before reversing.

[RLWP]

Sorry about this but the bilge pump is doing exactly what it is supposed to. The problem is:

 

1 - you have dirty bilges, so get in there and clean them so you can pump them into the canal.

 

2 - there is a problem with you engine drip tray allowing its contents to flow into the bilge. This is a BSS failure if the inspector finds it.

 

3. - the engine drip tray has been allowed to fill up so it overflows so clean it out and then do 1.

 

Once everything is clean put a hydrophobic (repels water) bilge blanket into the engine drip tray say 4 inches away forward of the rear "cross member" and change it after each engine service (about 40p form Wilton Chandlery branded products like pre-pack 3M silly money!). You will then be able to sponge the odd bit of water out of the back of the drip tray and pour it along the hedge line - there will be virtually no oil in it, but it would still rainbow if put in the cut.

 

If you want to carry on with oily bilges - and I hope you enjoy retrieving dropped tools etc - then identify the feed cable running to the bilge pump that is NOT switched and from high up and away from water cut it, extend it to another switch. Use this switch to isolate the float switch just before reversing.

 

Where does it say in the original posting that he has oil in his bilge water?

 

Richard

 

What make of pump and switch do you have MP?

[RobinJ]

Where does it say in the original posting that he has oil in his bilge water?

I agree - water from the stern gland!

 

They get pretty greasy, sooty, oily, dirty, from cruising around (despite cleaning), never seen a bilge yet that isn't unless its new!

[carlt]

Where does it say in the original posting that he has oil in his bilge water?

 

 

You need to get the bilges dry and clean, sort out the drip tray and fit a 3 way switch.

 

Edited because of crossed posts.

Edited January 20, 2009 by carlt

[magpie patrick]

Where does it say in the original posting that he has oil in his bilge water?

 

Richard

 

What make of pump and switch do you have MP?

 

Thanks RWLP: I didn't say I had oily bilges, nor did I say (but perhaps I should have) that the marina has a ban on operating bilge pumps. They have been helpful and friendly BUT this problem is embarrasing! However clean my bilge water I am involuntarily breaking the rules.

 

Not sure on make but I'll be on the boat in an hour or so I'll check then.

 

I think what happens is that the reverse sends water to the front of the bilge, it then bounces back and triggers the switch

 

BTW the current solution is to manually pump the bilge into a bucket, which removes enough for the pump not to trigger. This is a PITA

 

 

Why else would marina staff run round with washing up liquid?

 

You need to get the bilges dry and clean, sort out the drip tray and fit a 3 way switch.

 

They are reasonably clean but not marina standard clean, there are some contaminants. Water dripping through a stern gland has grease in it.

 

 

If you want to carry on with oily bilges - and I hope you enjoy retrieving dropped tools etc - then identify the feed cable running to the bilge pump that is NOT switched and from high up and away from water cut it, extend it to another switch. Use this switch to isolate the float switch just before reversing.

 

Even with clean bilges emptying the bilges contravenes marina rules (and does for most marinas).

[Tony Brooks]

I agree - water from the stern gland!

 

They get pretty greasy, sooty, oily, dirty, from cruising around (despite cleaning), never seen a bilge yet that isn't unless its new!

 

 

Well thats reassuring, I have a unique narrowboat and it only gets cleaned and painted every three years. Its about 19 years old after about 11 years in hire fleets so its done some work!.

 

Sooty means you have an exhaust leak.

 

Dirt - leaves, mud etc is no problem the water will still not rainbow.

 

Oily - the oil has to come from somewhere like drips when topping up etc. A rolled up (because its cheaper than a sausage) bilge blanket absorbs small amounts floating oil over a few days.

 

Grease - you do have a point there but this is often due to worn or incorrectly adjusted stern glands or overuse of the greaser. The answer is to place a container below the gland to catch the grease and any drips.

 

 

To Richard - absolutely correct, in skip reading I assumed he was discharging oily water and that what was causing the problem with the marina. I can not understand that rule. What are owners of boats expected to do whilst they are away? Allow them to sink on the mooring and cause (possible) even more pollution because the automatic bilge pump is turned off. Seems to me like a half baked rule because the marina operator can not be bothered to sort out the problem boats. If the water was not rainbowing I would ignore the rule and swear it was the calorifier PRV venting.

[estwdjhn]

Sounds a batty rule to me.

 

I make a couple of inches a week in the engine bilge, thanks to having an old fashioned non draining cruser stern. No problem if you can pump it out overboard, but not much fun otherwise - do they expect you to take the boat out once a month to empty the thing?

 

I want to know what your marina does to keep its water clean - most marina's I know are connected to canals, and the water in them seems more than a little murky... anyway, the water out of most showers and sinks is nastier than the contents of my bilge, at any rate - I presume you are allowed to empty the sink.

Edited January 20, 2009 by estwdjhn

[RLWP]

To Richard - absolutely correct, in skip reading I assumed he was discharging oily water and that what was causing the problem with the marina. I can not understand that rule. What are owners of boats expected to do whilst they are away? Allow them to sink on the mooring and cause (possible) even more pollution because the automatic bilge pump is turned off. Seems to me like a half baked rule because the marina operator can not be bothered to sort out the problem boats. If the water was not rainbowing I would ignore the rule and swear it was the calorifier PRV venting.

 

I thought it was a strange rule too. Imagine all those narrowboats crossing their legs and waiting to get out on the cut to discharge their bilge water!!

 

Richard

 

Aaahhhhh!!! That's better.......

Edited January 20, 2009 by RLWP

[bottle]

Patrick

 

The stern gland should not be causing any real problems, there are different thoughts but the stern gland should not be leaking, though some say a drip every so often is not a problem.

 

I know you did not want it mentioned but the ingress of rain water needs to be sorted if at all possible.

 

My advice, please disregard if you wish to, you will need a switch that gives two 'on' and one 'off'.

 

Remove the existing manual switch and replace with the new one. (three way)

 

Take the 'feed' wire from the manual switch and connect to the new switch.

 

Take the other wire and also connect it to the new switch.

 

Take the 'supply' wire from the automatic switch and connect it to the new switch.

 

Suggested switch ASAP supplies put 711417 in the search bar

 

One word of warning if you put a switch in the supply to the automatic switch and forget to leave it in the 'on' position the pump will not automatically pump.

 

I think that is as clears as mud.

[magpie patrick]

Patrick

 

The stern gland should not be causing any real problems, there are different thoughts but the stern gland should not be leaking, though some say a drip every so often is not a problem.

 

I know you did not want it mentioned but the ingress of rain water needs to be sorted if at all possible.

 

My advice, please disregard if you wish to, you will need a switch that gives two 'on' and one 'off'.

 

Remove the existing manual switch and replace with the new one. (three way)

 

Take the 'feed' wire from the manual switch and connect to the new switch.

 

Take the other wire and also connect it to the new switch.

 

Take the 'supply' wire from the automatic switch and connect it to the new switch.

 

Suggested switch ASAP supplies put 711417 in the search bar

 

 

 

One word of warning if you put a switch in the supply to the automatic switch and forget to leave it in the 'on' position the pump will not automatically pump.

 

I think that is as clears as mud.

 

Thanks Bottle: practical help.

 

It is a major job to solve the rainwater problem, it's a design fault with the boat, covers might be practical but probably expensive

 

To everyone else: the marina didn't originally have this rule but a few unofficial liveaboards were emptying bilges. Even clean bilge water in enough quantities is a problem in a marina which has no waterflow at all. So the marina have put a catch all condition one.

 

 

Sounds a batty rule to me.

 

I make a couple of inches a week in the engine bilge, thanks to having an old fashioned non draining cruser stern. No problem if you can pump it out overboard, but not much fun otherwise - do they expect you to take the boat out once a month to empty the thing?

 

That's exactly what they want you to do

 

What are owners of boats expected to do whilst they are away? Allow them to sink on the mooring and cause (possible) even more pollution because the automatic bilge pump is turned off.

 

In the OP I specifically said they did not want me to turn the automatic pump off when the boat is unattended

Edited January 20, 2009 by magpie patrick

[FadeToScarlet]

It might be worth getting a small hand-siphon pump (you know, with a vertical solid tube, a squeezy bit and a bendy tube) and emptying the bilge by hand.

 

Mine is utterly filthy at the moment, as in the past the stern gland has leaked enough to overflow over the bulkhead into the engine bilge, and the resulting oil slick has got everywhere. It's going to be sorted after the oil change that I'm doing on payday, when I can afford to buy enough oil!

 

Because the water in the bilge is greasy and oily, and I don't want to pump it out into the river, I use a big 5-litre bottle and manually pump the water into it so it can be disposed of properly at the local tip, every time it looks like slopping over the bulkhead again.

 

You could also see if you could disconnect the outlet hose from the hull fitting, and put it into a big bottle, before lifting the float and pumping the bilge, to get any nasties out. Give a good clean if necessary, and hey presto! Happy marina owners, happy you, clean and drier bilge.

[chris w]

If the water was not rainbowing...................

Although "rainbowing" does mean there is indeed oil in the water, one should understand that the amount of oil needed to produce the rainbowing (or "Newton's Rings" in physics circles) is absolutely miniscule and is definitely NOT an indication of any significant amount of oil.

 

The effect happens when the thickness of the oil is 1/4 of the wavelength of the colour seen. This is approximately 125 millionths of a millimetre in thickness or 125 x 10^-9 metres. For those who need to get out more, this is about 12,500 atoms in thickness.

 

So a full stop's worth of oil will be massively and hugely more oil than is needed to produce a rainbow effect. In fact, it could be argued that seeing the rainbow effect is indeed indicative of the fact that the oil spillage is absolutely minute.

 

Chris

 

PS: for the avoidance of doubt, I am not advocating or supporting the dumping of oil in the canal, just pointing out some "bad science"

[Tony Brooks]

Although "rainbowing" does mean there is indeed oil in the water, one should understand that the amount of oil needed to produce the rainbowing (or "Newton's Rings" in physics circles) is absolutely miniscule and is definitely NOT an indication of any significant amount of oil.

 

The effect happens when the thickness of the oil is 1/4 of the wavelength of the colour seen. This is approximately 125 millionths of a millimetre in thickness or 125 x 10^-9 metres. For those who need to get out more, this is about 12,500 atoms in thickness.

 

So a full stop's worth of oil will be massively and hugely more oil than is needed to produce a rainbow effect. In fact, it could be argued that seeing the rainbow effect is indeed indicative of the fact that the oil spillage is absolutely minute.

 

Chris

 

PS: for the avoidance of doubt, I am not advocating or supporting the dumping of oil in the canal, just pointing out some "bad science"

 

 

And the EA told me I could put a 2% oil mixture down the drain.

[Daftmare]

We use a hand pump much like Fade to Scarlet has recommended, but run by batteries for ease of use. It has got us out of many a scape in the past and you can pump into buckets or canisters for disposal elsewhere.

 

Jo

[Nine of Hearts]

A simple bodge to get around this ludicrous restriction would just be to put a switch in the feed to the pump so that you can isolate it when you're on board and in the marina. You can then remove this switch if ever you moor where the rules are more rational.

 

As I understand it, your pump can operate automatically when you're not there, but must not be operated if you are there??? Does it have to be you, or can anyone be onboard? Could you get away with saying "It's ok, it's not my boat?", or by stepping off onto the pontoon when the pump fires? I know it was partially facetious, but Mr Brook's comment about "Oh, it's just me calorifier venting" made perfect sense to me.

[magpie patrick]

A simple bodge to get around this ludicrous restriction would just be to put a switch in the feed to the pump so that you can isolate it when you're on board and in the marina. You can then remove this switch if ever you moor where the rules are more rational.

 

As I understand it, your pump can operate automatically when you're not there, but must not be operated if you are there??? Does it have to be you, or can anyone be onboard? Could you get away with saying "It's ok, it's not my boat?", or by stepping off onto the pontoon when the pump fires? I know it was partially facetious, but Mr Brook's comment about "Oh, it's just me calorifier venting" made perfect sense to me.

 

Thanks All. Nine of Hearts, what you are suggesting is exactly what I'm asking about how to install. Daftmare, Ialready have the hand pump: I described it as a pain in the a**e, but it's more like a pain in the back and knees as despite my youthful 42 years I have trouble, especially with the latter (a goalkeeping injury: I got the ball but the striker got my leg)

 

9 o H. It's a literal interpretation, and it is me trying to comply rather than marina staff making a fuss. It started through a few boaters emptying their bilges, these being the same boaters who never left the marina. I'm being hard on myself, partly because I know how difficult it could be if my boat empties three gallons in while I'm manouvreing and one of the culprits is watching. When they do it, and get told off, they'll say "that guy on Ripple..."

 

BUT BUT BUT having been to the boat today I got a shock. Bilges a tad full (but auto pump not firing yet) but they were dripping wet. I mean DRIPPING. I lifted the deck boards and the underside was not just sodden it looked like water had been thrown at them in the last few seconds. I presume condensation, and if the source is bilge water then all it is doing is circulating, but is that where my real problem lies? Damp atmosphere, condensation, full bilges?

 

I've also noticed paper curling in the cabin, as if the atmosphere has been damp. Saul Marina is very exposed, the EOG in High Lane was very sheltered. Thoughts?

[RLWP]

BUT BUT BUT having been to the boat today I got a shock. Bilges a tad full (but auto pump not firing yet) but they were dripping wet. I mean DRIPPING. I lifted the deck boards and the underside was not just sodden it looked like water had been thrown at them in the last few seconds. I presume condensation, and if the source is bilge water then all it is doing is circulating, but is that where my real problem lies? Damp atmosphere, condensation, full bilges?

 

It's an interesting idea. We have a cruiser stern and get that rain forest effect with water condensing on the bottom of the deck and the deck boards. I had always assumed it was a closed cycle though. Water evaporates from the bilge and condenses on the deck. It certainly is when the engine is running as our swim tank is the bottom of the boat not the side of the swim.

 

Richard

 

What pump and switch do you have?

[Nine of Hearts]

My post was in no way a criticism of your good self, and your bending over backwards trying to comply in this way is the usual scenario of a badly thought-out rule not addressing the real issue and making nice guys do all the leg work. hey ho, 'twas ever thus...

 

My semi stern also lets in water, and this is mainly due to the "guttering" around the hatch edges getting clogged with debris. Without stating the obvious, do your hatches have this feature and is it all in order? All mine consists of is steel "U" channelling with a drain tube over the side, and it's a bit prone to getting bunged up.

[paulcatchpole]

You need to get the bilges dry and clean, sort out the drip tray and fit a 3 way switch.

 

That's what I've got, although I've not fitted the second bilge float it can support, to trigger the alarm, if for some reason the first switch and pump fails...

 

 

PC

[Tony Brooks]

My post was in no way a criticism of your good self, and your bending over backwards trying to comply in this way is the usual scenario of a badly thought-out rule not addressing the real issue and making nice guys do all the leg work. hey ho, 'twas ever thus...

 

My semi stern also lets in water, and this is mainly due to the "guttering" around the hatch edges getting clogged with debris. Without stating the obvious, do your hatches have this feature and is it all in order? All mine consists of is steel "U" channelling with a drain tube over the side, and it's a bit prone to getting bunged up.

 

 

My cruiser stern also.

 

What I do not understand is how "clean rain water" or even dripping canal water being pumped from a bilge can cause any problem in any sort of waterway or marina. It is clear the marina management are t**** who are simply avoiding sorting out those pumping polluting water into the marina. We can also see from Chris's post that the pollution might not be significant in any extent.

 

I admire your determination to stick to the rules, but I would be looking for another marina and in the meanwhile swearing its the calorifier. Oily water is something else again.

 

 

I have just pumped my bilge into the marina and there is no sign of rainbows (or of oily globs). I then had to sponge out the drip tray and, as an experiment, squeezed one sponge full over the side. There was only the slightest rainbowing and the bucket containing the majority of drip tray water had no discernible oil in it or rainbow on it. No detergents were used. I only post this part to show bilges and drip trays do not have to be dirty now we have bilge blankets to soak up the oil & fuel drips.

 

Any chance of identifying the marina so some of us can avoid it?

Edited January 21, 2009 by Tony Brooks

[magpie patrick]

My cruiser stern also.

 

What I do not understand is how "clean rain water" or even dripping canal water being pumped from a bilge can cause any problem in any sort of waterway or marina. It is clear the marina management are t**** who are simply avoiding sorting out those pumping polluting water into the marina. We can also see from Chris's post that the pollution might not be significant in any extent.

 

I admire your determination to stick to the rules, but I would be looking for another marina and in the meanwhile swearing its the calorifier. Oily water is something else again.

 

 

I have just pumped my bilge into the marina and there is no sign of rainbows (or of oily globs). I then had to sponge out the drip tray and, as an experiment, squeezed one sponge full over the side. There was only the slightest rainbowing and the bucket containing the majority of drip tray water had no discernible oil in it or rainbow on it. No detergents were used. I only post this part to show bilges and drip trays do not have to be dirty now we have bilge blankets to soak up the oil & fuel drips.

 

Any chance of identifying the marina so some of us can avoid it?

 

If only: our next marina is Tewkesbury, £4500 per annum for a 60 footer (£2k at Saul). I'm waiting for the Droitwich Canal to reopen...

 

the solution suggested of disconnecting the outlet pipe appeals, and has merit. Then I use the bilge pump itself to drain into a bucket, which goes over the side once we're on the canal.

 

I would add, the Marina have obviously had problems or the management arer ****. A similar notice about cats and dogs fouling has gone round with a similar threat of being asked to leave

 

I would add that both the marina and thye G and S are unusually clean: I can see our baseplate and propellor quite clearly shen moored. But then, it is Bristol's main supply of drinking water

[saltysplash]

Its a bit odd that your marina is commenting on yourt bilge discharge? unless the oil/water ratio is excessive, Any sane person (without tree hugging tendancies) will accept a little film due to stern gland grease if nothing else, As far as im concerned, sod em, my bilge pumps are more important than local rules....having said that, it would be advisable to try and eliminate the ingress. one day, the pump may fail!

 

A dry bilge is better than

a wet boat