CHALLENGER - BOAT SOLD TOO CHEAP??

[Big COL]

I agree with John. The boat was worth what someone paid for it on the day.

 

If anyone thinks it's worth more, they should put their hand in their pocket and offer the successful bidder 70k (or whatever). I imagine the buyer would be delighted with an instant 54k profit. The new owner would then have the satisfaction of having paid the 'right' price.

 

Not got 70k to hand to spend in this way? Then the whole thing is nothing whatever to do with you.

 

What point are you trying to make?

 

It's not about Obtaining satisfaction from having paid the correct price,it's about giving creditors the best deal going.

It would appear in this case that this didn't happen. To suggest that someone to pay an extra 54k to be able to have an opinion is nonsense, as much is the statement "It's worth what someone paid for it on the day"

I would have paid up to double of the final sale price, and turned it into a project, had I known about it. What really is the issue here, just how few or many people actually knew about this auction, it would appear not many.

[magnetman]

An item is only really 'worth what someone paid on the day' if the fact it is actually for sale is widely known. Small auctions do not necessarily result in market value being achieved. If I were to put something really valuable into a little auction in the middle of nowhere it may well sell for massively less than it is worth because the people aware of that particular auction are not (or maybe they are ) aware of its true value. All sorts of heavy stuff goes on in small auctions, specially if an unusually but not generally obviously valuable item appears.

[Machpoint005]

What point are you trying to make?

I would have paid up to double of the final sale price, and turned it into a project, had I known about it. What really is the issue here, just how few or many people actually knew about this auction, it would appear not many.

 

There's nothing to stop you offering the new owner 32k - he may well be happy with an instant 16k profit for no effort.

 

I'll bet you haven't asked him, though.

 

The fact remains that the creditors have 16k rather than nothing.

[bargiepat]

The fact remains that the creditors have 16k rather than nothing.

 

 

Another person talking absolute RUBBISH.

 

 

How many more to come ????????

 

Patrick.

[Catrin]

The fact remains that the creditors have 16k rather than nothing.

But isn't the question whether or not the creditors could have had more than that, and whether the administrators have sent this to auction at an appropriate place, and with adequate publicity?

Cath

[Big COL]

There's nothing to stop you offering the new owner 32k - he may well be happy with an instant 16k profit for no effort.

 

I'll bet you haven't asked him, though.

 

The fact remains that the creditors have 16k rather than nothing.

 

You are still missing the point. Even with selective quoting. The creditors have not been given the best shot.

Why would I want to ask the new owner? I am not in the business of giving people unfair profits, profits they have neither earned or deserve. I have never involved myself in making money out of other peoples misery. The business ethics you are suggesting are not something I would want to be involved with.

Let me ask you something are you connected with this sale? For you seem to be keen to make a complete stranger a lot of money.

[LEO]

Hi,

 

Have read the posts with interest, and one assumes all the facts are correct.

 

Probably came about by using the wrong type of auction house, inadequate advertising, not allowing sufficient time for veiwing before offering the item for sale and 'knocking it' down to quickly.

 

It may have been done in all innocence - someone in the right place at the right time with cash got a deal due to a badly managed sale

 

Normally auction houses advertise boats being offered 'for sale' by auction in WW but I have seen no details of this one.

 

Can't believe any auction house could have sold a lot such as this for 'scrap' value, at least with no reserve.

 

I would suggest the creditors call for an investigation and I would love to see details of where it was sold and how it was catalogued.

 

Albi

[sarahavfc]

I know of creditors who have contacted the Liquidators asking if they could have details about possibly purchasing the boat, and none have them have received any information about the sale of it. Also nobody is picking up on the fact that the purchaser is a close friend of Mr. Rimmers. All the creditors I have spoke to are very anoyed, espcially as the sale of this boat could have gone quite a long way to repaying some of the debts, £16,000 will just about cover the liquidators fee. The liquidators know the value of the boat, I've seen the mortgage details that they have sent out which has a clear value.

 

I have also found out that Apache was removed from Blue Haven Marine, where it was to be fitted out, a week before Challenger went bust. It was then moved to another boatyard, owned by the friend of Mr. Rimmers who has now purchased the boat.

 

Does this look like a £16,000 boat to you?

 

[RLWP]

I know of creditors who have contacted the Liquidators asking if they could have details about possibly purchasing the boat, and none have them have received any information about the sale of it. Also nobody is picking up on the fact that the purchaser is a close friend of Mr. Rimmers. All the creditors I have spoke to are very anoyed, espcially as the sale of this boat could have gone quite a long way to repaying some of the debts, £16,000 will just about cover the liquidators fee. The liquidators know the value of the boat, I've seen the mortgage details that they have sent out which has a clear value.

 

I have also found out that Apache was removed from Blue Haven Marine, where it was to be fitted out, a week before Challenger went bust. It was then moved to another boatyard, owned by the friend of Mr. Rimmers who has now purchased the boat.

 

Does this look like a £16,000 boat to you?

 

Hi Sarah,

 

are Norton Canes part of the creditors?

 

Richard

[sarahavfc]

Yes

[AMModels]

did you get paid for the boat in question sarah, I would have thought title would remain with the builder until the boat was fully paid for. If title hasnt passed then the people who repossessed it are facing a day in court I would have thought.

 

No matter how you look at this the requisite of any liquidator is to get the best deal possible for creditors as this is patently not the case in this example there is recourse available to all concerned.

I suggest you use this as a first step to getting some satisfaction on this matter.

 

9. How do I complain about the actions of a trustee or liquidator? Bankruptcy and compulsory liquidation (winding-up) are court procedures, so a trustee or liquidator is subject to the control of the court. The Insolvency Act 1986 enables bankrupts, creditors, directors or contributories to ask the court to intervene, and gives the court wide-ranging powers. If you wish to complain about an insolvency practitioner's unprofessionalconduct, you should contact their authorising body. You can get details of a practitioner's authorising body through 'find an IP' on our website www.insolvency.gov.uk or by telephoning The

Insolvency Service Central Enquiry Line on 020 7291 6895 or emailingCentral.Enquiryline@insolvency.gsi.gov.ukThe Insolvency Service publishes a leaflet "How to make a complaint against an IP" giving general guidance on making a complaint.The authorising bodies each have publications which explain how their complaints procedureswork. The authorising bodies cannot settle disputes in individual cases, and disciplinaryprocedures should not be regarded as an alternative to asking the court to intervene. Forexample, an authorising body cannot decide the amount to be paid to a trustee or liquidator, orsettle a dispute where the trustee or liquidator does not accept a proof of debt sent in by acreditor; these are matters for the court. Before complaining to the trustee or liquidator's authorising body, or applying to court, you shouldwrite or speak to the insolvency practitioner to try and resolve the issue.

[sarahavfc]

There isn't any money owing to us on Apache, but there is to others.

 

We haven't been paid for the significant restoration works to Barnet.

[AMModels]

well personally I think the whole thing stinks to high heaven, I was aware of the costs owing from Barnet I only hope it is something you can absorb because I have nothing but the utmost respect for your dads boats and the ethos of your yard. If only everyone else in business had the same morals as him things like this wouldn t happen.

[greywolf]

A frend of mine was made redundant from a kitchen firm which folded leaving wages VAT and creditors.He was fortunate in that he quickly found new work but the directors of the of his old company have set up in business again with there old equipment that the receivers sold them in a private deal so i suppose things like this do go on.The only course is a legal one against the people winding up the company i would guess.Could you not sell the boat you are working on to recover costs sending any excess back to the liquidators? I guess that might be legal?

[andywatson]

As a creditor of Challenger I and others are very worried about news which is being heard about "Apache". If what I have heard is true apparently this boat has been sold for £16000 at auction. This is a virtually new 70ft Norton Canes built boat, with a fitted back cabin and Gardner 2LW. The sale price is unrealistic and any day of the week this boat would have fetched £65-70K. I have been given a buyers name and a boatyard involved, the combination of the two has a Challenger connection. Does anyone know of this deal?? Administators have not been in contact with any creditors as far as I know, which seems a little odd.

 

I think the true value of this boat under the circumastances is somwhere between the £70 and £16k.

 

The boat might have cost £70k and even be worth £70k to someone who wants exactly that boat and has £70k cash immmdiately available.

Otherwise a signifiicant discount must be applied to reflect the auction, possible paperwork problems etc, finding a cash buyer in the current market.

If it had gone for £40-50k at auction I wouldn't have been surprised.

 

I think even one of the bigger brokers would struggle to get £70k quickly and any cash buyer would haggle.

 

 

It's a lovely boat though and certainly worth much more than £16k it realised. The connection between liquidators and Challenger certainly looks odd.

Maybe those involved took a calculated risk on a diverse group of small creditors absorbing the hit rather than spending more money fighting this.

 

If you can trace those who did contact the liquidators and put together a case I'd say you could at least make life difficult for those involved including the present owner.

 

I'm not an expert on this but possibilities to consider are.

1 Police. (fraud?)

2 Administators/liquidators professional bodies.

3 Creditors get organised into a group and take legal action together.

 

I'd at least start with the police as it can be actioned quickly, should be cheapest and will at least cause a bit of stress for those involved.

 

 

Good luck and I hope you'll keep us informed if possible.

 

Edit; PS Can you invoke some kind of procedure which will freeze ownership or movement of the asset untill this is sorted out? it would be a good holding tactic.

The offshore/maritime version of this is called is called a "marine lien".

I once had an offshore supply vessel urgently needed to move a drilling rig tied up with one of these and it was mightily inconvenient.

Edited September 1, 2008 by andywatson

[Laurence Hogg]

Having spoken with Begbies Traynor this morning they advised thay had knowledge of the boat. However due to it being the guarentee for two mortgages taken out it was not of interest as it represented no value. they seemed to nothing of the sale or to be interested in it. All a little odd, I would have thought that a boat of that value would be part of the managed assets, when put to them, they simply reiterated "no financial interest".

They can be contacted om 0113 2237 5560 ask for Ian royal.

[Timleech]

Having spoken with Begbies Traynor this morning they advised thay had knowledge of the boat. However due to it being the guarentee for two mortgages taken out it was not of interest as it represented no value. they seemed to nothing of the sale or to be interested in it. All a little odd, I would have thought that a boat of that value would be part of the managed assets, when put to them, they simply reiterated "no financial interest".

They can be contacted om 0113 2237 5560 ask for Ian royal.

 

 

Are you/they saying that the boat belonged to an individual rather than to the company?

 

Tim

[Machpoint005]

Having spoken with Begbies Traynor this morning they advised thay had knowledge of the boat. However due to it being the guarentee for two mortgages taken out it was not of interest as it represented no value. they seemed to nothing of the sale or to be interested in it. All a little odd, I would have thought that a boat of that value would be part of the managed assets, when put to them, they simply reiterated "no financial interest".

They can be contacted om 0113 2237 5560 ask for Ian royal.

Exactly my point (which some seem unable to comprehend). If the boat was the security for a loan, the only organisation likely to gain anything from its sale was the lender. They were able to realise 16k on the sale, which was exactly 16k more than they could have got by not selling it.

 

In other words, the Challenger syndicate stood to gain nothing whatsoever, whether the boat went for 16 pence, 16 thousand, or 16 million. It wasn't theirs to sell!

 

I have no connection with the financial services industry, but I do have a reasonably analytical brain.

[Mick_B]

The only person to really gain is the person who paid out £16k for a VERY cheap boat...

[alan_fincher]

And if it's true that, before Challenger went under, the boat was moved to a yard owned by the friend of Mr Rimmer's, who subsequently bought it auction ?

 

Nothing vaguely suspect there, either ?

 

I have a reasonably analytical brain too!

[John Orentas]

In my very limited experience of these matters, the creditors are the very last people to be considered, when it happened to me I was not very pleased to find that the chap who 'took me' for in excess of £15 K was on Christian name terms with the appointed administrator, needless to say I never saw a penny.

[Machpoint005]

In my very limited experience of these matters, the creditors are the very last people to be considered, when it happened to me I was not very pleased to find that the chap who 'took me' for in excess of £15 K was on Christian name terms with the appointed administrator, needless to say I never saw a penny.

The administrators get their fat fee first, then the financial institutions get their share, and it's rare there is anything left for the unsecured creditors - the ordinary people who do business in an ethical manner.

 

This case seems to be no different.

[RichardH]

As a recent purchaser of a 62 foot ex Challenger Stealth who paid a fair price for the boat, I noticed 'Georgia' in dry dock at Middlewich.....Georgia being a Challenger Stealth Hudson Tug...The guys who were working on it spoke poorly of the condition of the steelwork and the dire condition of the R N engine and how it just wasn't worth the 70k asking price!

 

I guess anything is only worth what someone will pay for it.....I'd have paid 16K for it!

 

A

 

I've just had the pleasure of a week's busmans holiday on Georgia, renamed Larch. The R/N engine on closer inspection wasn't - it was actually a Czech copy according to the Middlewich Engineer.

[Machpoint005]

I've just had the pleasure of a week's busmans holiday on Georgia, renamed Larch. The R/N engine on closer inspection wasn't - it was actually a Czech copy according to the Middlewich Engineer.

It'll be better built than the original, then.

[Chris-B]

I've just had the pleasure of a week's busmans holiday on Georgia, renamed Larch. The R/N engine on closer inspection wasn't - it was actually a Czech copy according to the Middlewich Engineer.

 

Do you have any further info on the engine ??

 

Chris