Entitled Historic Boat Owners

[Tonka]

7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Maybe no harder to steer, but as you say harder to stop in a hurry and more ability to cause damage due to the extra weight. And perhaps a converted camping boat is not quite the same a large woolwich - I don't know, never steered one.

One of the arguments used by some historic boat owners to justify their actions is "Oh well you try steering a 70' deep drafted boat and see how you get on", so one can't have the argument both ways!

 

Plus I would assume that you were quite young when you did this - young people learn 20 times faster than grey beardy types who have spent a lifetime doing something else not involving co-ordination and prediction of trajectories, and then decide they might like to try steering a monster boat. We get this in gliding - if a 15 year old joins the club, he will learn to fly in a few months. If a 65 year old joins, it's quite likely they will never go solo.

But the 15 year old doesn't see the dangers where as the 65 old so is likely to be more cautious 

[Rich Greenhall]

16 hours ago, billS said:

Witnessed the Narrowboat Trust pair fail to negotiate a bridge hole without damaging the infrastructure today on the North Oxford. Watched them fail to leave the Wey without damaging someone else's boat a few years ago.

 

 

I feel this comment actually highlights the problem beautifully, a nothing event happened today where a boat had a minor cock up ( I presume, I wasn’t there they could equally have picked up a blade full and lost steerage) just like probably hundreds of other boats all over the system will have had minor cock ups today. Nothing was damaged, no one was hurt and the day carried on happily,   lessons will have been learnt (which is the exact purpose of this training run) but it gets commented about on here, why, purely because historic boats were involved. 
 

Rich 
 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Mike Tee said:

 This isn't an individual buying a boat and learning the hard way but a professional organisation training helmsmen / women.

Or in the case of the Narrow Boat Trust, an amateur organisation with unpaid volunteer instructors training the next generation of members.

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

It is thus demonstrably not necessary to be an a***hole in order to own or steer a historic boat, so those that are do so out of their own choice. And probably it is the other way round, an a***hole is attracted to a great big monster-bowed f-off boat so they can shove it in the face of the plebs and make everyone get out of the way, in order to make themselves feel better.

And you have never encountered an a***hole on a modern boat, who shoves it in the face of others and makes everyone get out of their way?

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

But the 15 year old doesn't see the dangers where as the 65 old so is likely to be more cautious 

True but being cautious in a glider doesn’t mean you can make a safe landing. Being “cautious” (aka nervous) can cause high workload and overload. An overloaded human is extremely dysfunctional.
 

And there is a direct corollary with narrowboating. The old cautious incompetent boater will keep going into neutral or even reverse and be quite unable to steer the thing as a consequence, bouncing off the lock entry walls etc, albeit relatively slowly. Being old, they don’t analyse the cause and effect, don’t learn from the consequences of their actions and continue to repeat the behaviour wondering why they get the same outcome. Whereas the youngster will quickly realise that faster is better because although you are going faster, you don’t hit anything because you can actually steer the thing.

49 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Or in the case of the Narrow Boat Trust, an amateur organisation with unpaid volunteer instructors training the next generation of members.

And you have never encountered an a***hole on a modern boat, who shoves it in the face of others and makes everyone get out of their way?

Yes, however bearing in mind the number of modern boats vs historic boats there do seem to be a disproportionate number of a***holes on the latter. But I will say it again, by no means all historic boat operators.

[billS]

1 hour ago, Rich Greenhall said:

I feel this comment actually highlights the problem beautifully, a nothing event happened today where a boat had a minor cock up ( I presume, I wasn’t there they could equally have picked up a blade full and lost steerage) just like probably hundreds of other boats all over the system will have had minor cock ups today. Nothing was damaged, no one was hurt and the day carried on happily,   lessons will have been learnt (which is the exact purpose of this training run) but it gets commented about on here, why, purely because historic boats were involved. 
 

Rich 
 

 

The boat hit the edge of the bridge sufficiently hard to be noteable, whether, by a hirer or a historical. Whether it dislodged the stonework or not, I cannot say, as the incident occured behind me.

 

You have not commented on the second part of my post, where the pair did cause actual damage to another boat when the stern of the butty clouted a small river boat, crushing it against a jetty and causing cracking and splintering. The steerer ignored this, and the subsequent shouts of the person onboard. 

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

True but being cautious in a glider doesn’t mean you can make a safe landing. Being “cautious” (aka nervous) can cause high workload and overload. An overloaded human is extremely dysfunctional.
 

And there is a direct corollary with narrowboating. The old cautious incompetent boater will keep going into neutral or even reverse and be quite unable to steer the thing as a consequence, bouncing off the lock entry walls etc, albeit relatively slowly. Being old, they don’t analyse the cause and effect, don’t learn from the consequences of their actions and continue to repeat the behaviour wondering why they get the same outcome. Whereas the youngster will quickly realise that faster is better because although you are going faster, you don’t hit anything because you can actually steer the thing.

Yes, however bearing in mind the number of modern boats vs historic boats there do seem to be a disproportionate number of a***holes on the latter. But I will say it again, by no means all historic boat operators.

I cannot speak for your boat but my boat will steer in neutral.

So will steer at slow speed aswell.

 

 

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

I cannot speak for your boat but my boat will steer in neutral.

So will steer at slow speed aswell.

 

No boat steers in neutral if it is not moving through the water. All boats steer to some extent if they are moving, depending on the design of the boat and how fast it is moving. But many modern boats  have rather small rudders that are barely effective in neutral and certainly can’t create a significant change in direction.
So yes boats do steer in neutral to some extent if they are moving forwards. But all narrowboats steer much more responsively if they are in fwd gear and preferable with a bit of revs on. Surely everyone (who knows how to steer a boat) knows this? So I’m not sure what point you are trying to make apart from stating the obvious.

[Tonka]

5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

No boat steers in neutral if it is not moving through the water. All boats steer to some extent if they are moving, depending on the design of the boat and how fast it is moving. But many modern boats  have rather small rudders that are barely effective in neutral and certainly can’t create a significant change in direction.
So yes boats do steer in neutral to some extent if they are moving forwards. But all narrowboats steer much more responsively if they are in fwd gear and preferable with a bit of revs on. Surely everyone (who knows how to steer a boat) knows this? So I’m not sure what point you are trying to make apart from stating the obvious.

In your previous post you stated that the old fart keeps going into neutral and reverse so lost the ability to steer. Where as the young person came in fast and was able to steer. 

 

So the old facts boat will have the ability to steer assuming he was going forward before dropping into neutral. It might take more rudder movement to induce but it will happen. Well it does on my boat. 

 

So your saying a younger person should come into the bank to moor at speed as they would have more steerage. But what happens if reverse doesn't work. Oh they have run into the back of you because they are trying to moor behind you. Surely they come in like the old fart and then if reverse doesn't happen they can get off with a rope to slow it down or if it does hit you it does less damage.

 

Surely you can see the sense of this.

[Tam & Di]

In that case you have an extraordinary boat, and I have owned a lot and steered a lot more. We regularly got people on our barge handling courses who said "I always go into locks as slowly as possible so that if I hit a wall I don't do any damage", to which my reply was always "It is not a matter of IF, it is a matter of WHEN". I would metaphorically rap them over the knuckles at each lock until they got the confidence to actually steer their boat properly, using power as appropriate. A boat moving in neutral is not a boat fully under control, albeit there are lots of people unable to properly control their craft even when it is in gear.

 

As a quick p.s., being in gear is not synonymus with going flat out 😀

Edited July 2 by Tam & Di

[Paul C]

2 hours ago, Tonka said:

I cannot speak for your boat but my boat will steer in neutral.

So will steer at slow speed aswell.

 

 

With the bow thruster?

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, Paul C said:

With the bow thruster?

Heretic!

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

With the bow thruster?

The wife is not allowed to use the pole whilst the boat is moving

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

So what does he do in meantime?

[ditchcrawler]

11 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

So what does he do in meantime?

Lays a new patio of course and then a new garden wall

[colinwilks]

On 01/07/2024 at 19:42, billS said:

Witnessed the Narrowboat Trust pair fail to negotiate a bridge hole without damaging the infrastructure today on the North Oxford. Watched them fail to leave the Wey without damaging someone else's boat a few years ago.

 

 

Not sure what your point is?

I was captaining that run back from Braunston and to be honest do not recall us failing to negotiate a bridge hole on the Northern Oxford, but any bridge hole you get through without any damage would seem to count as a success.

This was a training run for new members, so things were not always as slick as we might like. We are a volunteer organisation and put a lot of effort into presenting the boats as smartly as we can, in terms of both presentation and handling.

You are obviously a very experienced and capable boater, so perhaps you would contact the Trust? We are always pleased to learn from the experts who have shared the benefit of their experience with us over the years.

 

[PaulJ]

1 hour ago, colinwilks said:

Not sure what your point is?

I was captaining that run back from Braunston and to be honest do not recall us failing to negotiate a bridge hole on the Northern Oxford, but any bridge hole you get through without any damage would seem to count as a success.

This was a training run for new members, so things were not always as slick as we might like. We are a volunteer organisation and put a lot of effort into presenting the boats as smartly as we can, in terms of both presentation and handling.

You are obviously a very experienced and capable boater, so perhaps you would contact the Trust? We are always pleased to learn from the experts who have shared the benefit of their experience with us over the years.

 

You passed me near Dunchurch- we met at a bend just as I was coming through the bridge.

No dramas- you were (unlike a good percentage of private, hire and historic boats I met on bends) actually on the right side of the canal and well positioned. 

Think you had about 6 crew in total- all of which smiled, waved or exchanged greetings as we passed.

I did think at the time this was how it should be done having passed too many miserable scowly faces en route as I dodged them.. 🙂

 

 

[furnessvale]

2 hours ago, PaulJ said:

You passed me near Dunchurch- we met at a bend just as I was coming through the bridge.

No dramas- you were (unlike a good percentage of private, hire and historic boats I met on bends) actually on the right side of the canal and well positioned. 

Think you had about 6 crew in total- all of which smiled, waved or exchanged greetings as we passed.

I did think at the time this was how it should be done having passed too many miserable scowly faces en route as I dodged them.. 🙂

 

 

Interesting you mention the "right"side of the canal. 

 

As a former historic boater, the correct side is in the deeper water on the outside of the bend, which doesn't always correspond to the convention of passing on the right.  However, having deeper water underneath you, from this position you are able to move to the correct passing side in most cases.  Coming round the shallow inside of a bend is a recipe for disaster as, at any moment, you can skid across the cut in a straight line.

[Tam & Di]

3 hours ago, PaulJ said:

Think you had about 6 crew in total- all of which smiled, waved or exchanged greetings as we passed.

I did think at the time this was how it should be done having passed too many miserable scowly faces en route as I dodged them.. 🙂

 

Back in the 50s/60s, when pleasure boaters were a rarety, the most you could expect from a boatman unless you knew them well was a slight inclination of the head. We referred to it as a 'boatman's nod', but it was pretty much the same you'd get while walking in rural areas. The waving and cheering that now goes on seems to us more like a rather self-satisfied "look at me - I'm on a boat", and I find it rather embarrassing if a guest on our boat does it.

 

[DShK]

god it's so difficult to enjoy life isn't it

[nicknorman]

46 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

Back in the 50s/60s, when pleasure boaters were a rarety, the most you could expect from a boatman unless you knew them well was a slight inclination of the head. We referred to it as a 'boatman's nod', but it was pretty much the same you'd get while walking in rural areas. The waving and cheering that now goes on seems to us more like a rather self-satisfied "look at me - I'm on a boat", and I find it rather embarrassing if a guest on our boat does it.

 

But surely the fundamental difference here is between a professional working boatman, and somebody enjoying leisure activity on a historic boat? The former are entitled to be grumpy and aloof because they are just doing their job, day after day, and the job description doesn’t include being nice to gongoozlers, or leisure boaters who don’t really know what they are doing and just get in the way.
Whereas someone “enjoying” leisure activity on a boat historic or not, could reasonably be expected to be cheerful and enjoying themselves - otherwise, why are they doing it?! And with that goes the common courtesy of being pleasant and polite to those engaging in the same activity.

 

Obviously the number of people in the former category is virtually zero as I don’t include fuel boats - part of their job description IS to be nice to other boaters! So that leaves virtually no-one who is entitled to be grumpy and aloof.
And yet…

[DShK]

14 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But surely the fundamental difference here is between a professional working boatman, and somebody enjoying leisure activity on a historic boat? The former are entitled to be grumpy and aloof because they are just doing their job, day after day, and the job description doesn’t include being nice to gongoozlers, or leisure boaters who don’t really know what they are doing and just get in the way.
Whereas someone “enjoying” leisure activity on a boat historic or not, could reasonably be expected to be cheerful and enjoying themselves - otherwise, why are they doing it?! And with that goes the common courtesy of being pleasant and polite to those engaging in the same activity.

 

Obviously the number of people in the former category is virtually zero as I don’t include fuel boats - part of their job description IS to be nice to other boaters! So that leaves virtually no-one who is entitled to be grumpy and aloof.
And yet…

I would say contractors like the Rothen's would fit into the actually working category. But the interactions I've had with them have been very pleasant.

 

I enjoy working boats as efficiently as I can (not that I am very good at that yet) but some people with heritage boats take this far too seriously. I was once made to walk for 2 miles because slowing slightly to let me on would have slowed our pace by a few minutes.

Edited July 3 by DShK

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, DShK said:

I would say contractors like the Rothen's would fit into the actually working category. But the interactions I've had with them have been very pleasant.

 

I enjoy working boats as efficiently as I can (not that I am very good at that yet) but some people with heritage boats take this far too seriously. I was once made to walk for 2 miles because slowing slightly to let me on would have slowed our pace by a few minutes.

Yes agree about Rothens but again, being contractors to CRT and us being CRT’s customers, part of the “job description” is to be polite to us noddyboaters! In contrast to someone using the canals for the transportation of goods for profit.

[PaulJ]

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

 Coming round the shallow inside of a bend is a recipe for disaster as, at any moment, you can skid across the cut in a straight line.

You should pass this tip onto the not a few I meet that cut across the inside (on their left) at blind corners at speed towards me  (not just historics I should add) which are the scowly buggars Im talking about..

59 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

Back in the 50s/60s, when pleasure boaters were a rarety, the most you could expect from a boatman unless you knew them well was a slight inclination of the head. We referred to it as a 'boatman's nod', but it was pretty much the same you'd get while walking in rural areas. The waving and cheering that now goes on seems to us more like a rather self-satisfied "look at me - I'm on a boat", and I find it rather embarrassing if a guest on our boat does it.

 

But we are not in the 50/60s anymore and Im rarely a pleasure boater although I do seem to take more pleasure from it than many 😀

 

7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But surely the fundamental difference here is between a professional working boatman, and somebody enjoying leisure activity on a historic boat? The former are entitled to be grumpy and aloof because they are just doing their job, day after day, and the job description doesn’t include being nice to gongoozlers, or leisure boaters who don’t really know what they are doing and just get in the way.
 

I usually work 11-12 hours a day, seven days a week delivering boats.

 I like exchanging pleasantries and daft comments with the rest of the boating community- perhaps I need to become alot more miserable to be considered as a proper boatman 😀

[Tonka]

40 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But surely the fundamental difference here is between a professional working boatman, and somebody enjoying leisure activity on a historic boat? The former are entitled to be grumpy and aloof because they are just doing their job, day after day, and the job description doesn’t include being nice to gongoozlers, or leisure boaters who don’t really know what they are doing and just get in the way.
Whereas someone “enjoying” leisure activity on a boat historic or not, could reasonably be expected to be cheerful and enjoying themselves - otherwise, why are they doing it?! And with that goes the common courtesy of being pleasant and polite to those engaging in the same activity.

 

Obviously the number of people in the former category is virtually zero as I don’t include fuel boats - part of their job description IS to be nice to other boaters! So that leaves virtually no-one who is entitled to be grumpy and aloof.
And yet…

I was moored at Avecote when you came by once. Shame you didn't look away from the ipad you had with you. You would have seen me wave

[nicknorman]

8 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I was moored at Avecote when you came by once. Shame you didn't look away from the ipad you had with you. You would have seen me wave

How terrible! I was too busy replying to you on the internet to actually interact with you in person! ‘Tis a 21st century thing.

Anyway, how do you know it was me driving?