Clicking when trying to start engine

[Tony Brooks]

24 minutes ago, jacko264 said:

Why would you cut the post that is ridiculous all they need is a clean with sand paper 

unless the post is burnt  away from having a loose clamp then it’s a new battery 

 

That is not what he was describing. The "blade" was/is spring-loaded and set at the angle of the post face. The toll was placed over the post and twisted so the blade SCRAPED the corrosion off. there was no cutting of the post.

 

Oh, and by the way it is perfectly possible to burn a new post onto the old post base if the post has burned away, but you do need to know what you are doing and have the posts moulds and lead available. It takes less than five minutes, but I suppose at today's labour rates a new battery may be more economic.

[jacko264]

I agree with all you say  Tony , but repairing is old day stuff like leading car body’s  in stead of body filler

[cuthound]

25 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is not what he was describing. The "blade" was/is spring-loaded and set at the angle of the post face. The toll was placed over the post and twisted so the blade SCRAPED the corrosion off. there was no cutting of the post.

 

Oh, and by the way it is perfectly possible to burn a new post onto the old post base if the post has burned away, but you do need to know what you are doing and have the posts moulds and lead available. It takes less than five minutes, but I suppose at today's labour rates a new battery may be more economic.

 

Up until 1980, when BT adopted VRSLA batteries, they used to use large open 2 volt cells as shown in the attached photo. These cells had replaceable plates, which when they failed, were cut from the group bar and a new one lead welded in it's place.

Edited April 18 by cuthound
Phat phingers

[sueanddaren]

Ronaldo47 posted this a couple of years back:-  

•  

Posted May 30, 2022

Unlike ordinary lubricating greases,which are designed to strongly adhere to metal surfaces to prevent them coming into contact,;Vaseline is a pure hydrocarbon that readily flows under pressure and does not strongly adhere to metals. It therefore allows the metal surfaces to achieve a good electrical contact while preventing atmospheric oxygen from coming into contact with the mated surfaces and oxidising them.

[jacko264]

Unfortunately we seam to be in a replace world  now 

in garages we had mechanics now there fitters as fit new bits

[Alan de Enfield]

 

[Sir Nibble]

59 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No. Just,  no. So unsafe. I've done this stuff, but with all the sensible precautions and proper waste disposal. 

Interestingly, only the negative plates have any cohesion. If you drop one on the floor it goes thud, a positive plate goes splat and there's no way there's enough solid lead to weld. All the plates this guy is reusing started as negative ones. Since every cell has one more positive plate than negative, building a battery with reclaimed plates would need three donor batteries. 

[system 4-50]

Anyone out there with a spare battery post and cable, a pot of vaseline, and a multimeter and some spare time??

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Anyone out there with a spare battery post and cable, a pot of vaseline, and a multimeter and some spare time??

 

It would be more accurate to measure the volt drop across the joint under stating current.

[Sir Nibble]

9 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Anyone out there with a spare battery post and cable, a pot of vaseline, and a multimeter and some spare time??

Yes. I'll try it loaded with a heavy discharge tester next week. 

[Lizette]

Hello Peeps

RCR came out today and confirmed it was the fuel solenoid. My starter battery has been affected too!

Awaiting part! Fingers crossed I shall be on my way in the next day or two.

I want to thank all of you for your input. I always find it useful ,tapping in to your experienced heads.

[Tracy D'arth]

Sounds like its a standard RCR make work, make money, job.

 I  didn't know that there was a fuel solenoid.

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Sounds like its a standard RCR make work, make money, job.

 I  didn't know that there was a fuel solenoid.

 

I wonder if it is an electric fuel pump. The only other solenoid I would expect would be a stop solenoid, but neither should be under the engine.

 

Still, lets hope RCR are correct this time.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I wonder if it is an electric fuel pump. The only other solenoid I would expect would be a stop solenoid, but neither should be under the engine.

 

Still, lets hope RCR are correct this time.

 

There has to be a 1st time !

[Paul C]

Clicking and starter not turning? Yep obvs fuel solenoid

[Lizette]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I wonder if it is an electric fuel pump. The only other solenoid I would expect would be a stop solenoid, but neither should be under the engine.

 

Still, lets hope RCR are correct this time.

Hey Sorry- it is the stop solenoid- 😆 just testing. It is to the right and tucked under part of the engine.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Lizette said:

Hey Sorry- it is the stop solenoid- 😆 just testing. It is to the right and tucked under part of the engine.

 

Thanks, that makes much more sense as far as the smoke is concerned, but unless the battery was in a poor condition or state of charge at the start of this saga, I go along with Paul C's scepticism. If the solenoid was drawing enough current to prevent the starter working, I think it's relatively thin cable would have caught fire and melted. Once the cable parted, the starts should be able to spin the engine, but possibly it would not actually start.

 

I have my fingers crossed for you.

[Lizette]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Sounds like its a standard RCR make work, make money, job.

 I  didn't know that there was a fuel solenoid.

At £65 call out ,it  is a make lots of money job.

2 years ago it was only £30.I do think they are brill though!

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Thanks, that makes much more sense as far as the smoke is concerned, but unless the battery was in a poor condition or state of charge at the start of this saga, I go along with Paul C's scepticism. If the solenoid was drawing enough current to prevent the starter working, I think it's relatively thin cable would have caught fire and melted. Once the cable parted, the starts should be able to spin the engine, but possibly it would not actually start.

 

I have my fingers crossed for you.

I might need you to explain further. So,you guys think that perhaps that is not the problem with non starting; it's an additional problem. 

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Thanks, that makes much more sense as far as the smoke is concerned, but unless the battery was in a poor condition or state of charge at the start of this saga, I go along with Paul C's scepticism. If the solenoid was drawing enough current to prevent the starter working, I think it's relatively thin cable would have caught fire and melted. Once the cable parted, the starts should be able to spin the engine, but possibly it would not actually start.

 

I have my fingers crossed for you.

Also, the starter battery has been on the way out for sometime, I would like to see if I can get it going for a last journey,onwards and upwards but I shall see!

Living on the edge eh?? 😂

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Lizette said:

At £65 call out ,it  is a make lots of money job.

2 years ago it was only £30.I do think they are brill though!

I might need you to explain further. So,you guys think that perhaps that is not the problem with non starting; it's an additional problem. 

 

I think on the statements that you have given us that diagnosis has a number of inconsistencies UNLESS the battery had problems right from the start.

 

Explanation: A lead acid battery in good condition and a good state of charge can probably provide thousands of amps for a while, a starter draws a few hundred amps rapidly dropping as the motor speeds up to perhaps something over 100 amps.

 

Now, for a faulty stop solenoid to prevent the starter working it would have to draw many hundreds of amps so it robs the starter of the current it needs and all those amps would have to run down a small cable. That means the cable would get very hot, the insulation start to burn, and then the copper strands would melt so the cable would disconnect itself, then the solenoid could not draw any current so the starter could draw all it needed.

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

I am intensely sceptical that anything to do with a stop solenoid would cause the starter solenoid to click and not engage the starter.

The stop solenoid cuts off the fuel supply to stop the engine when it is running. That is all.

I have a deep distrust of RCR from many years of experience. 

[jonathanA]

Isn't it the barrus engine where there is some convoluted arrangement between the run/stop solenoid and the starter to avoid having a stop switch/engine stop position on the ignition switch ? 

 

That could possibly explain then issue and RCR might have it right... 🤔 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I am intensely sceptical that anything to do with a stop solenoid would cause the starter solenoid to click and not engage the starter.

The stop solenoid cuts off the fuel supply to stop the engine when it is running. That is all.

I have a deep distrust of RCR from many years of experience. 

 

In my world, the least capable engineers sink to working for insurance companies. I've no reason to think it is any different in the sphere of narrowboats.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, jonathanA said:

Isn't it the barrus engine where there is some convoluted arrangement between the run/stop solenoid and the starter to avoid having a stop switch/engine stop position on the ignition switch ? 

 

That could possibly explain then issue and RCR might have it right... 🤔 

 

If they do, do that, then they are very bad engineers. It just needs a suitable energise to run stop solenoid, like the majority of cars, vans and probably trucks. That is not to say Barrus have not done so, but the only complicated system I have actually come across is the Lister one that converts an earth return engine to insulated return when running.

 

I still don't see how a faulty stop solenoid can make the starter with a GOOD battery can ever make the starter click. A solenoid on the Lister system probably could though, but then it is not a stop solenoid.

Edited April 24 by Tony Brooks

[Sir Nibble]

I think this solenoid has an ignition supplied hold in winding and the pull in winding connected to the starter. 

[Tracy D'arth]

38 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

I think this solenoid has an ignition supplied hold in winding and the pull in winding connected to the starter. 

Perhaps, but I can see no evidence of it on the panel wiring diagram, just a feed from the key switch to the starter solenoid.